| General > General Technical Chat |
| "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them) |
| << < (61/139) > >> |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2022, 10:41:42 am ---That is something else and IMHO very unlikely to happen because it means the electricity generation & distribution is falling short (as if you are living in a third world country). In the end you can't predict peak demand. Over here the trains are on strike so everybody who has a car, goes to work with a car. How to plan for that with a system that inherently isn't able to deal with peak demand? --- End quote --- It's already happening! https://octopus.energy/intelligent-octopus/ These are not the only guys offering it. Nothing about this signals failure of the grid, there are obviously better times to add more load like an EV to charge. In summer time, the UK regularly has days where wind is the only power source for hours at a time. If there's nothing to soak that demand up, it's wasted capacity. As wind and solar become more and more dominant then the frequency of these days will increase. I do agree vehicle to grid discharge is not a great idea right now (though as battery tech improves it may make more sense.) Vehicle to home for backup though, that's a *fantastic* idea. |
| Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 31, 2022, 09:07:33 am ---Avg. gas consumption of 12000kWh per year for a house --- End quote --- Funnily enough - this seems to be a rough ballpark figure of heating energy spent anywhere. Houses in colder climates are just insulated better, because there is natural motivation to do so. My house uses around 15MWh per year, and it's built in 1952 and energy renovated in 1982. Original insulation is sawdust + wood chip mix, 100mm in walls, and 300mm in ceiling and floor, plus walls have some wood fiber board for some extra insulation. In 1982, 50mm of mineral wool was added to outside walls. Modern houses per current regulations use like 300mm of modern-day mineral wool in the walls, and 500mm or even 600mm in the attic. We have finally realized how important airtightness is, so newly build houses are actually pressure tested to prove absence of air leaks. As a result, modern houses consume very little heating energy, even given the cold climate. But we still see the magical number ~15MWh/year around, though, because people just build larger and larger houses, and as a result, are more and more in debt! It seems to be some kind of magical constant, people can psychologically afford spending 10-25MWh/year for heating so that is what they do. If they live in warmer climate, they insulate very poorly, and get to that number. If they live in colder climate, they insulate better, only to get to the same number. If they want a bigger house, they will insulate even better. What needs to change is the absolute value of this number, because energy is more expensive, a limited resource we have overused for decades. One way is to use heatpumps, for example, my 15MWh of heat comes from approx. 6MWh of electricity because of the heatpump. Another option is better insulation. And obviously - both. Also the fact people used to live in 100m^2 houses with large families (say 4-5 kids), and now you suddenly need 250m^2 for no kids or 1-2 kids. Combine all this knowledge and try to see if you could live in a 100m^2 house again, insulate it better, and use heatpump, and that 15MWh is down to 3-4MWh. A totally massive drop. |
| JohanH:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 31, 2022, 12:49:28 pm --- --- Quote from: tom66 on August 31, 2022, 09:07:33 am ---Avg. gas consumption of 12000kWh per year for a house --- End quote --- Funnily enough - this seems to be a rough ballpark figure of heating energy spent anywhere. Houses in colder climates are just insulated better, because there is natural motivation to do so. --- End quote --- Here too, electrical consumption about 15 MWh/year. House is 145 m^2. Last year the heatpump used 4700 kWh electricity and produced 17600 kWh heat energy (heating 13600 kWh and hot water 4000 kWh). |
| madires:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 31, 2022, 09:07:33 am ---It's going to be much more important to properly insulate homes rather than increase generation. --- End quote --- Proper insulation is a prerequisite for heat pumps. Of course it also helps to reduce gas and fuel oil usage for classic heating systems. Anyhow, it's expensive. |
| tom66:
In normal times, 12000kWh per year of gas would cost about £400. So if you could halve that you would save £200 per year. Even if you assume a 10 year payback time, there's not a huge amount you can do to improve energy efficiency for £2,000. Most savings calculators state things like underfloor insulation costs £4,000 to install and saves you £67 per year, what's the point? People would rather go on holiday. As for living in a smaller house? There's no reason you can't insulate a big house too, to the point where the losses are quite small. Besides, we spend so much time at home, it would be a disappointment to not have enough space to relax and do things that we want. |
| Navigation |
| Message Index |
| Next page |
| Previous page |