General > General Technical Chat
"Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)
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Zero999:

--- Quote from: AndyBeez on August 31, 2022, 07:28:17 pm ---Reality check: extortionate european gas prices mean the door is opening wide for the far right to embrace the lessons of european history.

--- End quote ---
Well there's the real far-right and then there are groups labelled as far-right by those who dislike them, especially the establishment.

Yes, high energy prices are another thing contributing to the destruction of this country.
--- Quote from: james_s on August 31, 2022, 12:00:12 am ---
--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 30, 2022, 10:59:10 pm ---I disagree with banning ICU cars though. People will gradually transition to EVs as they get cheaper and the cost savings become more apparent.

If EV batteries are going to be used to balance the grid, then it's only fair the owners should be compensated for the additional wear on the battery. The meter connected to the car should work the same in both directions.

How EVs are going to be taxed is another area of controversy. One idea is to include a tracker so they known how far you've gone and on which roads, but that's seen as a privacy issue by many. I'd support reading the odometer every year, when the car gets its MoT and applying the tax accordingly.

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Banning ICE cars is absolutely stupid, at least it is on the insanely aggressive timeline that CA and now my state have pledged to do it. I did notice the law does allow plug-in hybrids though so I suspect we will see a large number of hybrids with a token plug-in feature tacked on that allows the battery to be topped off, and I doubt many people will use it.

Pure EVs are already extremely popular and they are growing fast. There is no need to mandate them, the free(ish) market is working as it is supposed to and people whose needs are met by an EV are choosing them when it is economically advantageous to do so. With a Tesla costing around $10 for 300 miles of range you don't even have to drive a huge number of miles for that to pay off, even at fuel prices of a few years ago. Even so, there are enough edge cases that trying to mandate pure EV is ridiculous. Tradesmen and such still need heavy duty trucks with large range. People that have horses and RVs need to be able to pull a big heavy trailer, sometimes hundreds of miles in a day. Huge numbers of people do not have these edge cases but enough do that ICE must remain a choice for the foreseeable future.

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Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental. Poor people won't be able to afford the increased prices of second-hand petrol and diesel cars. It's completely insane and unnecessary. EV sales will eventually overtake ICE cars and replace them at a pace people can cope with.
https://www.brindley.co.uk/news/the-2030-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-explained/
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 31, 2022, 04:32:09 pm ---Yep. You have to take the physical limits into account. A natural gas pipe can bring an awfull lot of energy into a home compared to the electricity connection. You can't simply disconnect the gas and assume there is enough electricity available to heat a home. Adding insulation can not be done infinitely; at some point you will have to activiely control the moisture levels in a home as well which -for an older home- means massive construction work.

The Dutch consumer's organisation (non-profit organisation) recommends people to buy hybrid boilers which are both heatpump and gas burner. When it is really cold, the gas burner kicks in.

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They were renovating small block of flats in Switzerland by adding 30cm styrofoam isolation on the outside.
In colder climates, the usual way to place the bricks is one layer of up to 45 cm thick bricks with built in air channels. The brick alone has a heat transfer coefficient of 0.14 W/mK unlike the usual  housing here is 1W/mK.

AndyBeez:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 31, 2022, 08:20:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: AndyBeez on August 31, 2022, 07:28:17 pm ---Reality check: extortionate european gas prices mean the door is opening wide for the far right to embrace the lessons of european history.

--- End quote ---
Well there's the real far-right and then there are groups labelled as far-right by those who dislike them, especially the establishment

--- End quote ---
When only working class/blue collar workers struggle against the economic tide, the establishment dismisses them as lazy, unskilled or just criminal. And no one else cares because they brought their own misfortune on themselves. But when the educated, tax paying, middle class struggles, the political class has a real problem. If people perceive their hard earned living standards as falling/failing, they will look for their political leaders to show leadership. And that's not what the established political class ever does. Enter the anti establishment  Donald Trumps.

What we are seeing through these extortionate market energy prices is an opportunistic wealth raid. A wealth raid on every person, business and organisation across europe by a tiny minority who are manipulating and exploiting their monopoly positions. Ask yourself, where EXACTLY does my money, my income, my savings, my wealth, end up? Certainly not added to your standard of living.
tautech:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 31, 2022, 08:20:53 pm ---Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental.

--- End quote ---
It is, especially when these policies were dreamed up a few years back and the events of 2022 make them instantly outdated however the purists will be happy when we only have horses again for transport and there'll employment for the masses shoveling horse shit from the roads.
tom66:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 31, 2022, 08:20:53 pm ---Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental. Poor people won't be able to afford the increased prices of second-hand petrol and diesel cars. It's completely insane and unnecessary. EV sales will eventually overtake ICE cars and replace them at a pace people can cope with.
https://www.brindley.co.uk/news/the-2030-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-explained/

--- End quote ---

Ban the sale of NEW petrol cars, you fail to note.  You will still be able to buy a second hand one.   You will still be able to drive one.   And with the average life of a car exceeding 15 years, there will be ICE vehicles on the road until 2045, and probably beyond 2050.

I think it's a good policy, we need to stop producing ICE as soon as practical.  If you really want to hold on to petrol, I'm sure there will be plenty of cheap second-hand examples going into 2030.
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