| General > General Technical Chat |
| "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them) |
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| tautech:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 31, 2022, 10:34:11 pm ---Ban the sale of NEW petrol cars, you fail to note. You will still be able to buy a second hand one. You will still be able to drive one. And with the average life of a car exceeding 15 years, there will be ICE vehicles on the road until 2045, and probably beyond 2050. --- End quote --- You think ? A good buddy regularly drives his 1932 Model A here in NZ and for the occasional several hour trip to meet up with like minded enthusiasts at Model A rallies. Pretty darn good for a 90 year old passenger vehicle to still get a MOT and be used regularly. |
| SiliconWizard:
--- Quote from: Zero999 on August 31, 2022, 08:20:53 pm --- --- Quote from: AndyBeez on August 31, 2022, 07:28:17 pm ---Reality check: extortionate european gas prices mean the door is opening wide for the far right to embrace the lessons of european history. --- End quote --- Well there's the real far-right and then there are groups labelled as far-right by those who dislike them, especially the establishment. Yes, high energy prices are another thing contributing to the destruction of this country. --- Quote from: james_s on August 31, 2022, 12:00:12 am --- --- Quote from: Zero999 on August 30, 2022, 10:59:10 pm ---I disagree with banning ICU cars though. People will gradually transition to EVs as they get cheaper and the cost savings become more apparent. If EV batteries are going to be used to balance the grid, then it's only fair the owners should be compensated for the additional wear on the battery. The meter connected to the car should work the same in both directions. How EVs are going to be taxed is another area of controversy. One idea is to include a tracker so they known how far you've gone and on which roads, but that's seen as a privacy issue by many. I'd support reading the odometer every year, when the car gets its MoT and applying the tax accordingly. --- End quote --- Banning ICE cars is absolutely stupid, at least it is on the insanely aggressive timeline that CA and now my state have pledged to do it. I did notice the law does allow plug-in hybrids though so I suspect we will see a large number of hybrids with a token plug-in feature tacked on that allows the battery to be topped off, and I doubt many people will use it. Pure EVs are already extremely popular and they are growing fast. There is no need to mandate them, the free(ish) market is working as it is supposed to and people whose needs are met by an EV are choosing them when it is economically advantageous to do so. With a Tesla costing around $10 for 300 miles of range you don't even have to drive a huge number of miles for that to pay off, even at fuel prices of a few years ago. Even so, there are enough edge cases that trying to mandate pure EV is ridiculous. Tradesmen and such still need heavy duty trucks with large range. People that have horses and RVs need to be able to pull a big heavy trailer, sometimes hundreds of miles in a day. Huge numbers of people do not have these edge cases but enough do that ICE must remain a choice for the foreseeable future. --- End quote --- Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental. Poor people won't be able to afford the increased prices of second-hand petrol and diesel cars. It's completely insane and unnecessary. EV sales will eventually overtake ICE cars and replace them at a pace people can cope with. https://www.brindley.co.uk/news/the-2030-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-explained/ --- End quote --- Yeah. Nobody was willing to believe there was such a thing as an horrendous 2030 agenda. There is, and it's unfolding. Sure one may keep saying loudly that it's just a conspirationist fantasy, but it's unfolding right in front of our eyes and this is no theory. https://sdgs.un.org/2030agenda https://europa.eu/newsroom/events/2030-agenda-%E2%80%93-european-union-committed-sustainable-development-globally https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/future-predictions-what-if-get-things-right-visions-for-2030/ |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 31, 2022, 10:34:11 pm ---Ban the sale of NEW petrol cars, you fail to note. You will still be able to buy a second hand one. You will still be able to drive one. And with the average life of a car exceeding 15 years, there will be ICE vehicles on the road until 2045, and probably beyond 2050. I think it's a good policy, we need to stop producing ICE as soon as practical. If you really want to hold on to petrol, I'm sure there will be plenty of cheap second-hand examples going into 2030. --- End quote --- I was well aware that the ban is on new cars, but what do you think will happen to prices on used cars once that ban takes effect? He did not fail to note it, he pointed out exactly that. They are already sky high, many used car values have doubled in the past 2-3 years. There needs to be a critical mass of ICE cars on the road in order for parts, maintenance and fuel supply lines to be viable. I'm a proponent of EVs but we are a LONG way off from them being viable for everybody. I absolutely will not ever support bans on making any kind of product, ever. Tax less efficient stuff if you must but don't ban it, let the free market decide. EVs are already catching on like crazy, we don't need mandates. |
| Vovk_Z:
--- Quote from: AndyBeez on August 31, 2022, 10:07:19 pm ---What we are seeing through these extortionate market energy prices is an opportunistic wealth raid. A wealth raid on every person, business and organisation across europe by a tiny minority who are manipulating and exploiting their monopoly positions. Ask yourself, where EXACTLY does my money, my income, my savings, my wealth, end up? Certainly not added to your standard of living. --- End quote --- I'm not sure what 'a tiny minority' do you mean? The main reason energy prices rised so high is a war started in the Europe by russia. This war is not only against a Ukraine, energy war it is against all the Europe (if you haven't seen it). Russia itself is cutting gas supply to EU much faster then Europe countries fasten the belt with a gas consumption. There are tonnes of russian comments in the internet where russians want the whole EU to freeze in the winter (but not only Ukraine to freeze w/o russian gas). The whole Europe wasn't ready for such a large war (in all spheres) so we see consequences here. The Ukraine struggles with it's lives, the EU struggles economically. |
| Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: madires on August 31, 2022, 04:11:21 pm --- --- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 31, 2022, 02:24:48 pm --- --- Quote from: madires on August 31, 2022, 01:19:26 pm ---Proper insulation is a prerequisite for heat pumps. --- End quote --- Where is this meme coming from? These things (heatpumps, insulation) are totally orthogonal. Quite the opposite, (e.g. ground source) heatpumps are specifically being recommended here in old, poorly insulated buildings (with maybe some historical or sentimental value); of course, because poorly insulated houses consume more heat, there is more (absolute) potential for savings. For example, a well insulated house needing 9MWh/year of heat, heatpump with COP=3 saves 6MWh/year of energy. A poorly insulated house needing 27MWh/year of heat, heatpump with COP=3 saves 18MWh/year of energy. --- End quote --- Of course you can argue that with any COP/efficiency better than simply burning gas or fuel oil you'll need to buy less energy. But why stopping there if adding insulation lowers that dramatically more? So you can pay for a proper insulation or have to buy more/larger heat pumps to get the heat power needed. Without insulation you'll also need a higher flow temperature to keep your home warm (limit of typical heat pumps is about 40-45°C). The next point is that all the additional required electricity has to be generated. This will not happen over night and we don't have fusion power plants yet. It's about the whole strategy! --- End quote --- High distribution temperature is a problem of its own, it can be fixed by installing larger radiators or fan coil units, but if and when this is too costly, then just use air-to-air heatpumps which completely sidestep the issue. Insulation is only an indirect factor here, because distribution temperature is basically defined by the ratio between insulation and radiator size. Thus, there is some synergy: improving insulation reduces distribution temperature even without increasing radiator size. And as I said, you should be really doing both: fixing insulation and installing heatpumps. But neither is a prerequisite to other, and fixing these things work in any order. Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it. But yes, longer term it makes no sense not to insulate new buildings properly, and also it makes no sense not to insulate old houses whenever doing some other renovations that enable easy addition of insulation. And of course, always pick the low hanging fruits. In many buildings, attics are free, accessible space where ceiling insulation can be added in matter of hours. Decision chart: Get a heatpump: Have hydronic heat distribution and want to keep using it for heating solely? -> low distribution temperature (40-45degC during coldest times)? -> yes: air-to-water heatpump -> no: radiator upgrade plus air-to-water heatpump -> no moneyz to do that? -> see below Don't have hydronic heat distribution at all. Willing to retrofit it? -> yes: retrofit large radiators / fan coil units / underfloow heating, plus air-to-water heatpump -> no moneyz to do that? -> see below -> no: see below "See below": Install air-to-air heatpumps, one for each larger room, as many as you can easily afford. Existing heating system (maybe natural gas with hydronic distribution) remains in use, thermostats adjusted low enough so that radiators stay off in heatpump-heated rooms under normal conditions. |
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