Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79203 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20363
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Reality check: extortionate european gas prices mean the door is opening wide for the far right to embrace the lessons of european history.
Well there's the real far-right and then there are groups labelled as far-right by those who dislike them, especially the establishment.

Yes, high energy prices are another thing contributing to the destruction of this country.
I disagree with banning ICU cars though. People will gradually transition to EVs as they get cheaper and the cost savings become more apparent.

If EV batteries are going to be used to balance the grid, then it's only fair the owners should be compensated for the additional wear on the battery. The meter connected to the car should work the same in both directions.

How EVs are going to be taxed is another area of controversy. One idea is to include a tracker so they known how far you've gone and on which roads, but that's seen as a privacy issue by many. I'd support reading the odometer every year, when the car gets its MoT and applying the tax accordingly.

Banning ICE cars is absolutely stupid, at least it is on the insanely aggressive timeline that CA and now my state have pledged to do it. I did notice the law does allow plug-in hybrids though so I suspect we will see a large number of hybrids with a token plug-in feature tacked on that allows the battery to be topped off, and I doubt many people will use it.

Pure EVs are already extremely popular and they are growing fast. There is no need to mandate them, the free(ish) market is working as it is supposed to and people whose needs are met by an EV are choosing them when it is economically advantageous to do so. With a Tesla costing around $10 for 300 miles of range you don't even have to drive a huge number of miles for that to pay off, even at fuel prices of a few years ago. Even so, there are enough edge cases that trying to mandate pure EV is ridiculous. Tradesmen and such still need heavy duty trucks with large range. People that have horses and RVs need to be able to pull a big heavy trailer, sometimes hundreds of miles in a day. Huge numbers of people do not have these edge cases but enough do that ICE must remain a choice for the foreseeable future.
Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental. Poor people won't be able to afford the increased prices of second-hand petrol and diesel cars. It's completely insane and unnecessary. EV sales will eventually overtake ICE cars and replace them at a pace people can cope with.
https://www.brindley.co.uk/news/the-2030-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-explained/
 

Offline tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8218
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Yep. You have to take the physical limits into account. A natural gas pipe can bring an awfull lot of energy into a home compared to the electricity connection. You can't simply disconnect the gas and assume there is enough electricity available to heat a home. Adding insulation can not be done infinitely; at some point you will have to activiely control the moisture levels in a home as well which -for an older home- means massive construction work.

The Dutch consumer's organisation (non-profit organisation) recommends people to buy hybrid boilers which are both heatpump and gas burner. When it is really cold, the gas burner kicks in.
They were renovating small block of flats in Switzerland by adding 30cm styrofoam isolation on the outside.
In colder climates, the usual way to place the bricks is one layer of up to 45 cm thick bricks with built in air channels. The brick alone has a heat transfer coefficient of 0.14 W/mK unlike the usual  housing here is 1W/mK.

 

Offline AndyBeez

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: nu
Reality check: extortionate european gas prices mean the door is opening wide for the far right to embrace the lessons of european history.
Well there's the real far-right and then there are groups labelled as far-right by those who dislike them, especially the establishment
When only working class/blue collar workers struggle against the economic tide, the establishment dismisses them as lazy, unskilled or just criminal. And no one else cares because they brought their own misfortune on themselves. But when the educated, tax paying, middle class struggles, the political class has a real problem. If people perceive their hard earned living standards as falling/failing, they will look for their political leaders to show leadership. And that's not what the established political class ever does. Enter the anti establishment  Donald Trumps.

What we are seeing through these extortionate market energy prices is an opportunistic wealth raid. A wealth raid on every person, business and organisation across europe by a tiny minority who are manipulating and exploiting their monopoly positions. Ask yourself, where EXACTLY does my money, my income, my savings, my wealth, end up? Certainly not added to your standard of living.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 29812
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental.
It is, especially when these policies were dreamed up a few years back and the events of 2022 make them instantly outdated however the purists will be happy when we only have horses again for transport and there'll employment for the masses shoveling horse shit from the roads.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline tom66Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental. Poor people won't be able to afford the increased prices of second-hand petrol and diesel cars. It's completely insane and unnecessary. EV sales will eventually overtake ICE cars and replace them at a pace people can cope with.
https://www.brindley.co.uk/news/the-2030-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-explained/

Ban the sale of NEW petrol cars, you fail to note.  You will still be able to buy a second hand one.   You will still be able to drive one.   And with the average life of a car exceeding 15 years, there will be ICE vehicles on the road until 2045, and probably beyond 2050.

I think it's a good policy, we need to stop producing ICE as soon as practical.  If you really want to hold on to petrol, I'm sure there will be plenty of cheap second-hand examples going into 2030.
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike, JohanH

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 29812
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Ban the sale of NEW petrol cars, you fail to note.  You will still be able to buy a second hand one.   You will still be able to drive one.   And with the average life of a car exceeding 15 years, there will be ICE vehicles on the road until 2045, and probably beyond 2050.
You think ?
A good buddy regularly drives his 1932 Model A here in NZ and for the occasional several hour trip to meet up with like minded enthusiasts at Model A rallies. Pretty darn good for a 90 year old passenger vehicle to still get a MOT and be used regularly.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15800
  • Country: fr
Reality check: extortionate european gas prices mean the door is opening wide for the far right to embrace the lessons of european history.
Well there's the real far-right and then there are groups labelled as far-right by those who dislike them, especially the establishment.

Yes, high energy prices are another thing contributing to the destruction of this country.
I disagree with banning ICU cars though. People will gradually transition to EVs as they get cheaper and the cost savings become more apparent.

If EV batteries are going to be used to balance the grid, then it's only fair the owners should be compensated for the additional wear on the battery. The meter connected to the car should work the same in both directions.

How EVs are going to be taxed is another area of controversy. One idea is to include a tracker so they known how far you've gone and on which roads, but that's seen as a privacy issue by many. I'd support reading the odometer every year, when the car gets its MoT and applying the tax accordingly.

Banning ICE cars is absolutely stupid, at least it is on the insanely aggressive timeline that CA and now my state have pledged to do it. I did notice the law does allow plug-in hybrids though so I suspect we will see a large number of hybrids with a token plug-in feature tacked on that allows the battery to be topped off, and I doubt many people will use it.

Pure EVs are already extremely popular and they are growing fast. There is no need to mandate them, the free(ish) market is working as it is supposed to and people whose needs are met by an EV are choosing them when it is economically advantageous to do so. With a Tesla costing around $10 for 300 miles of range you don't even have to drive a huge number of miles for that to pay off, even at fuel prices of a few years ago. Even so, there are enough edge cases that trying to mandate pure EV is ridiculous. Tradesmen and such still need heavy duty trucks with large range. People that have horses and RVs need to be able to pull a big heavy trailer, sometimes hundreds of miles in a day. Huge numbers of people do not have these edge cases but enough do that ICE must remain a choice for the foreseeable future.
Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now. It's mental. Poor people won't be able to afford the increased prices of second-hand petrol and diesel cars. It's completely insane and unnecessary. EV sales will eventually overtake ICE cars and replace them at a pace people can cope with.
https://www.brindley.co.uk/news/the-2030-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-explained/

Yeah. Nobody was willing to believe there was such a thing as an horrendous 2030 agenda. There is, and it's unfolding. Sure one may keep saying loudly that it's just a conspirationist fantasy, but it's unfolding right in front of our eyes and this is no theory.

https://sdgs.un.org/2030agenda
https://europa.eu/newsroom/events/2030-agenda-%E2%80%93-european-union-committed-sustainable-development-globally
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/future-predictions-what-if-get-things-right-visions-for-2030/
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Ban the sale of NEW petrol cars, you fail to note.  You will still be able to buy a second hand one.   You will still be able to drive one.   And with the average life of a car exceeding 15 years, there will be ICE vehicles on the road until 2045, and probably beyond 2050.

I think it's a good policy, we need to stop producing ICE as soon as practical.  If you really want to hold on to petrol, I'm sure there will be plenty of cheap second-hand examples going into 2030.

I was well aware that the ban is on new cars, but what do you think will happen to prices on used cars once that ban takes effect? He did not fail to note it, he pointed out exactly that. They are already sky high, many used car values have doubled in the past 2-3 years. There needs to be a critical mass of ICE cars on the road in order for parts, maintenance and fuel supply lines to be viable. I'm a proponent of EVs but we are a LONG way off from them being viable for everybody.

I absolutely will not ever support bans on making any kind of product, ever. Tax less efficient stuff if you must but don't ban it, let the free market decide. EVs are already catching on like crazy, we don't need mandates.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 06:10:56 am by james_s »
 

Offline Vovk_Z

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1478
  • Country: ua
What we are seeing through these extortionate market energy prices is an opportunistic wealth raid. A wealth raid on every person, business and organisation across europe by a tiny minority who are manipulating and exploiting their monopoly positions. Ask yourself, where EXACTLY does my money, my income, my savings, my wealth, end up? Certainly not added to your standard of living.
I'm not sure what 'a tiny minority' do you mean? The main reason energy prices rised so high is a war started in the Europe by russia. This war is not only against a Ukraine, energy war it is against all the Europe (if you haven't seen it). Russia itself is cutting gas supply to EU much faster then Europe countries fasten the belt with a gas consumption. There are tonnes of russian comments in the internet where russians want the whole EU to freeze in the winter (but not only Ukraine to freeze w/o russian gas). The whole Europe wasn't ready for such a large war (in all spheres) so we see consequences here. The Ukraine struggles with it's lives, the EU struggles economically.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 08:03:44 am by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
Proper insulation is a prerequisite for heat pumps.

Where is this meme coming from?

These things (heatpumps, insulation) are totally orthogonal.

Quite the opposite, (e.g. ground source) heatpumps are specifically being recommended here in old, poorly insulated buildings (with maybe some historical or sentimental value); of course, because poorly insulated houses consume more heat, there is more (absolute) potential for savings.

For example, a well insulated house needing 9MWh/year of heat, heatpump with COP=3 saves 6MWh/year of energy. A poorly insulated house needing 27MWh/year of heat, heatpump with COP=3 saves 18MWh/year of energy.

Of course you can argue that with any COP/efficiency better than simply burning gas or fuel oil you'll need to buy less energy. But why stopping there if adding insulation lowers that dramatically more? So you can pay for a proper insulation or have to buy more/larger heat pumps to get the heat power needed. Without insulation you'll also need a higher flow temperature to keep your home warm (limit of typical heat pumps is about 40-45°C). The next point is that all the additional required electricity has to be generated. This will not happen over night and we don't have fusion power plants yet. It's about the whole strategy!

High distribution temperature is a problem of its own, it can be fixed by installing larger radiators or fan coil units, but if and when this is too costly, then just use air-to-air heatpumps which completely sidestep the issue.

Insulation is only an indirect factor here, because distribution temperature is basically defined by the ratio between insulation and radiator size. Thus, there is some synergy: improving insulation reduces distribution temperature even without increasing radiator size.

And as I said, you should be really doing both: fixing insulation and installing heatpumps. But neither is a prerequisite to other, and fixing these things work in any order.

Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

But yes, longer term it makes no sense not to insulate new buildings properly, and also it makes no sense not to insulate old houses whenever doing some other renovations that enable easy addition of insulation.

And of course, always pick the low hanging fruits. In many buildings, attics are free, accessible space where ceiling insulation can be added in matter of hours.

Decision chart:

Get a heatpump:

Have hydronic heat distribution and want to keep using it for heating solely?
   -> low distribution temperature (40-45degC during coldest times)?
      -> yes: air-to-water heatpump
      -> no: radiator upgrade plus air-to-water heatpump
           -> no moneyz to do that?
                -> see below
Don't have hydronic heat distribution at all.
    Willing to retrofit it?
          -> yes: retrofit large radiators / fan coil units / underfloow heating, plus air-to-water heatpump
              -> no moneyz to do that?
                   -> see below
          -> no: see below

"See below":
Install air-to-air heatpumps, one for each larger room, as many as you can easily afford. Existing heating system (maybe natural gas with hydronic distribution) remains in use, thermostats adjusted low enough so that radiators stay off in heatpump-heated rooms under normal conditions.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 08:01:43 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
They were renovating small block of flats in Switzerland by adding 30cm styrofoam isolation on the outside.

I'm wondering how well this works, because generally vapor tight materials should go in one layer closest to the inside walls and coming out, rest should be vapor-passing, but I guess someone has proved by calculation that the styrofoam has low enough water vapor resistance (contrary to common misbelief, styrofoam is not nearly as vapor tight as plastic vapor barrier films or polyurethane sheeting).

Fire safety is a problem with styrofoam as shown in some spectacular cases in UK.

Here, the most common insulation material added outside is mineral wool, either glass or rock wool. These materials work outside pretty well because they let water vapor through and are also fire safe. The wool sheets added on the outside have an air-tight (but vapor-passing) surface coating (e.g. some moisture tolerant bitumen paper, or see Housewrap) because having wind blow through the wools would render them pretty much useless. But maybe styrofoam is cheaper. Thermal conductivity is roughly the same, something like 35mW/mK.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 08:20:16 am by Siwastaja »
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico

Offline tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8218
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
They were renovating small block of flats in Switzerland by adding 30cm styrofoam isolation on the outside.

I'm wondering how well this works, because generally vapor tight materials should go in one layer closest to the inside walls and coming out, rest should be vapor-passing, but I guess someone has proved by calculation that the styrofoam has low enough water vapor resistance (contrary to common misbelief, styrofoam is not nearly as vapor tight as plastic vapor barrier films or polyurethane sheeting).

Fire safety is a problem with styrofoam as shown in some spectacular cases in UK.

Here, the most common insulation material added outside is mineral wool, either glass or rock wool. These materials work outside pretty well because they let water vapor through and are also fire safe. The wool sheets added on the outside have an air-tight (but vapor-passing) surface coating (e.g. some moisture tolerant bitumen paper, or see Housewrap) because having wind blow through the wools would render them pretty much useless. But maybe styrofoam is cheaper. Thermal conductivity is roughly the same, something like 35mW/mK.
It's been the standard way of isolating new built houses or refurbishing houses all across East Europe. There is usually not two layers of bricks, for a long time the bricks are engineering bricks, with air channels, since a long time. Isolation goes on the outside, about 30-50 cm from the ground.
I've seen moisture issues, usually near bathrooms, that is easily solved with ventilation. Otherwise, dehumidifiers.
But that might not work well here, since the ground moves a lot more. Honestly, I'm not sure it's not my area of expertise.
And of course you end up with a house that looks different than the usual houses here.


 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Those bricks are intended for inner walls only! You can't use these for outside walls, read the datasheet. Last year I have looked into these bricks as a light weight solution to upgrade my shed but the specs say these aren't suitable for outside walls.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 11:54:01 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8218
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Those bricks are intended for inner walls only! You can't use these for outside walls, read the datasheet. Last year I have looked into these bricks as a light weight solution to upgrade my shed but the specs say these aren't suitable for outside walls.
https://www.wienerberger.hu/termekek/porotherm-falazat/Falazoelemek/porotherm-38-n_f-tegla.html


Quote
Egy igazĂ¡n nĂ©pszerű, klasszikus kerĂ¡mia tĂ©gla, mely sokrĂ©tűen felhasznĂ¡lhatĂ³. EgyarĂ¡nt alkalmazhatĂ³ kĂ¼lsÅ‘ teherhordĂ³ fal, vagy vĂ¡laszfal Ă©pĂ­tĂ©sĂ©re.
"A really popular, classic ceramic brick that can be used in many ways. It can be used equally for the construction of external load-bearing walls or partitions."
Might be a fluke in the Dutch knowledge, like that other misinformation, you can only use heatpumps if your house is well isolated.
The other advancement that I saw was extremely thin layers of mortar, like 1mm. It requires the bricks to be sanded down accurately.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 01:29:23 pm by tszaboo »
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8276
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Might be a fluke in the Dutch knowledge, like that other misinformation, you can only use heatpumps if your house is well isolated.

You can heat your non-insulated home also with heat pumps, but you'll waste a lot of electric power. It's the same for any other energy source. Despite this forum being about electronics some people think that electric power simply comes out of the wall socket. Here's a question for you: how does that power get into the wall socket?
 

Offline tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8218
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Might be a fluke in the Dutch knowledge, like that other misinformation, you can only use heatpumps if your house is well isolated.

You can heat your non-insulated home also with heat pumps, but you'll waste a lot of electric power. It's the same for any other energy source. Despite this forum being about electronics some people think that electric power simply comes out of the wall socket. Here's a question for you: how does that power get into the wall socket?
I have a guy who fills it up with a bucket of electricity every few months.

Those bricks are intended for inner walls only! You can't use these for outside walls, read the datasheet. Last year I have looked into these bricks as a light weight solution to upgrade my shed but the specs say these aren't suitable for outside walls.
The plot thickens, because the same company I linked sells bricks here. And you don't have the same series available here, only the old school solid bricks. I'm starting to feel there is a building code which forces us here to build poorly isolated houses, stuck with centuries old technology.
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
I've seen moisture issues, usually near bathrooms, that is easily solved with ventilation.

With bathrooms, there is no excuse not to do them properly.

This is, bathrooms just absolutely need seamless vapor barriers inside. When you do that, no humidity enters the structures, so any moisture remains a surface problem, which is easily revealed. That surface moisture is indeed solved with enough ventilation (and/or, dehumidifiers).

Whenever the bathroom leaks humid air into the structures, it's Game Over for the structures. Of course even then ventilation helps to reduce the issue, but it's a slippery slope. The point is, it is not fruitful to discuss if adding extra insulation on the outside makes already bad situation possibly a tiny bit worse.

Good thing about adding vapor-passing insulation (such as mineral wool, then air barrier, then a ventilation gap, then outer surface) on the outside is, it rarely makes anything worse. Even if the original structures have problems, they will be at higher temperatures after the retrofit, and spend less time with dew point inside. Optimally though, original vapor barriers should be fixed / new vapor barriers added, but that is not always an option due to cost of renovating everything.

It is also worth remembering that if the original structure has ever had problems, the mold inside keeps spewing toxins even if the dewing conditions are removed, for decades. Damaged materials should always be replaced.

Vapor tight materials on the outside are a huge risk, of course.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 02:23:01 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7044
  • Country: nl
Our so-called Conservative government is going to ban petrol cars in 2030. Less than 8 years from now.

2050 is net zero date, mean lifetime of passenger cars is around 20 years. You think the peons have it bad, wait till you start to hear professionals screaming when government finally stops listening them and finalizes the date for the SF6 ban, pros are also pros at coming up with excuses. It will be an endless litany, which can only be overcome by ignoring it and using governments monopoly on violence to make them.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7044
  • Country: nl
I'm wondering how well this works

As long as the wall can't rot, concrete or brick, what does exterior insulation matter? Any liquid water will accumulate at the outside of the original wall and just follow gravity, same as the rain which would have hit it. It's more a question of drainage.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 03:54:53 pm by Marco »
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
As long as the wall can't rot, concrete or brick

I don't think this classical assumption is safe to do. After all, we do have a real indoor air quality epidemic here in public buildings, especially schools built starting from 1970's. These are all concrete and brick. No one has been able to find conclusive evidence what exactly is wrong, but clearly some very nasty microbes can live in concrete or brick, even if the amount of organic material for them to consume is orders of magnitude smaller than in wood structures. Chemical emissions from plastic flooring materials, released by chemical reactions triggered by moisture (not present during qualification testing of the materials) is also suspected.


Quote
Any liquid water will accumulate at the outside of the original wall and just follow gravity, same as the rain which would have hit it. It's more a question of drainage.

Yes, with enough insulation added, the dew point could potentially move out of the original wall, into the new insulation, and it could theoretically be built with insulation materials designed to drain any condensate, like the Swedish innovation Isodrän (which is designed to be used in underground walls, but the same idea). Plain old mineral wool holds the water in tiny droplets and gravity can't do the job until the material is completely damp. So while possible, draining is not trivial. Best we can usually do is to minimize the amount of water getting into the structure, and then let whatever gets there anyway dry by evaporation. These goals are normally achieved by stopping water vapor from entering from the side which on average has more absolute humidity (i.e., indoors), and letting the structure pass any humidity on the side which on average has less absolute humidity (outside). Rain is best stopped, by far, with a simple physical gap (ventilation gap), the only downsides being requiring some space for that gap (maybe 2cm), and any outer layers after that gap not contributing to thermal insulation of the building.

In very hot and humid climates where cooling dominates over heating, these roles are of course swapped, as inside air is cool and dry, and if vapor barrier is used at all, it should be on the outside. But I don't know enough about how this is dealt with in such climates.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 05:23:16 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

Wow, are they really that cheap over there? My friend was quoted over $7500 to install a 0.9 ton ductless mini split heat pump, I installed it for him and I think it cost about $1700 at the time for the equipment and materials. A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

Wow, are they really that cheap over there? My friend was quoted over $7500 to install a 0.9 ton ductless mini split heat pump, I installed it for him and I think it cost about $1700 at the time for the equipment and materials. A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

I am are talking about usual split-type room air conditioners designed to cool and heat (working down to around -20degC ambient). I am sure they are available to you with similar prices or less. The thing invented in Japan in 1980's, and found everywhere, especially in Asia. Something like 2.5kW nominal output power, input rating around 700W. Inverter machines for the last 10-15 years.

You must be thinking about something else.

For example, typical price in Japan is around $300 and installation like $200. Here, they now go for 700-800 EUR for basic models and 1000-1300EUR for the installation, and I call that total robbery. It has doubled in a few years.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 05:27:51 pm by Siwastaja »
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7044
  • Country: nl
A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

This seems more a question of inertia combined with labor shortages. The cooling industry has massive size and low margins, that disappears when the direction of the refrigerant gets reversed, but not for any fundamental reason. Heatpump central air with a refrigerant loop to the duct heat exchanger should be as cheap as cooling was a year ago, eventually it will be.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

Wow, are they really that cheap over there? My friend was quoted over $7500 to install a 0.9 ton ductless mini split heat pump, I installed it for him and I think it cost about $1700 at the time for the equipment and materials. A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

I am are talking about usual split-type room air conditioners designed to cool and heat (working down to around -20degC ambient). I am sure they are available to you with similar prices or less. The thing invented in Japan in 1980's, and found everywhere, especially in Asia. Something like 2.5kW nominal output power, input rating around 700W. Inverter machines for the last 10-15 years.

You must be thinking about something else.

For example, typical price in Japan is around $300 and installation like $200. Here, they now go for 700-800 EUR for basic models and 1000-1300EUR for the installation, and I call that total robbery. It has doubled in a few years.

I think we're talking about the same thing, these things: https://hvacdirect.com/ductless-mini-splits/single-zone-ductless-mini-splits.html

A company that installs them will typically mark up the equipment about double, and charge a minimum of a couple thousand dollars to come out and install it. I hate the HVAC industry, they lobby very hard to make it difficult for anyone that is not a member of their little club to touch the stuff.
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7044
  • Country: nl
In the US the F-gas implementation seems pretty benign to me, 50$ for a remote exam and you're certified to handle.

Becoming certified for working with F-gasses takes 100x more here.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf