General > General Technical Chat
"Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)
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james_s:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on September 01, 2022, 07:59:29 am ---Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

--- End quote ---

Wow, are they really that cheap over there? My friend was quoted over $7500 to install a 0.9 ton ductless mini split heat pump, I installed it for him and I think it cost about $1700 at the time for the equipment and materials. A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.
Siwastaja:

--- Quote from: james_s on September 01, 2022, 05:23:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on September 01, 2022, 07:59:29 am ---Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

--- End quote ---

Wow, are they really that cheap over there? My friend was quoted over $7500 to install a 0.9 ton ductless mini split heat pump, I installed it for him and I think it cost about $1700 at the time for the equipment and materials. A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

--- End quote ---

I am are talking about usual split-type room air conditioners designed to cool and heat (working down to around -20degC ambient). I am sure they are available to you with similar prices or less. The thing invented in Japan in 1980's, and found everywhere, especially in Asia. Something like 2.5kW nominal output power, input rating around 700W. Inverter machines for the last 10-15 years.

You must be thinking about something else.

For example, typical price in Japan is around $300 and installation like $200. Here, they now go for 700-800 EUR for basic models and 1000-1300EUR for the installation, and I call that total robbery. It has doubled in a few years.
Marco:

--- Quote from: james_s on September 01, 2022, 05:23:38 pm ---A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

--- End quote ---

This seems more a question of inertia combined with labor shortages. The cooling industry has massive size and low margins, that disappears when the direction of the refrigerant gets reversed, but not for any fundamental reason. Heatpump central air with a refrigerant loop to the duct heat exchanger should be as cheap as cooling was a year ago, eventually it will be.
james_s:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on September 01, 2022, 05:26:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on September 01, 2022, 05:23:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on September 01, 2022, 07:59:29 am ---Sometimes adding insulation is a very high cost operation, while a simple air-source heatpump can be ordered and installed in matter of hours and only 1500EUR spent. Or install two-three while at it.

--- End quote ---

Wow, are they really that cheap over there? My friend was quoted over $7500 to install a 0.9 ton ductless mini split heat pump, I installed it for him and I think it cost about $1700 at the time for the equipment and materials. A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

--- End quote ---

I am are talking about usual split-type room air conditioners designed to cool and heat (working down to around -20degC ambient). I am sure they are available to you with similar prices or less. The thing invented in Japan in 1980's, and found everywhere, especially in Asia. Something like 2.5kW nominal output power, input rating around 700W. Inverter machines for the last 10-15 years.

You must be thinking about something else.

For example, typical price in Japan is around $300 and installation like $200. Here, they now go for 700-800 EUR for basic models and 1000-1300EUR for the installation, and I call that total robbery. It has doubled in a few years.

--- End quote ---

I think we're talking about the same thing, these things: https://hvacdirect.com/ductless-mini-splits/single-zone-ductless-mini-splits.html

A company that installs them will typically mark up the equipment about double, and charge a minimum of a couple thousand dollars to come out and install it. I hate the HVAC industry, they lobby very hard to make it difficult for anyone that is not a member of their little club to touch the stuff.
Marco:
In the US the F-gas implementation seems pretty benign to me, 50$ for a remote exam and you're certified to handle.

Becoming certified for working with F-gasses takes 100x more here.
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