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| "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them) |
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| Miyuki:
--- Quote from: wraper on August 25, 2022, 11:07:27 am --- --- Quote from: JohanH on August 25, 2022, 10:48:58 am ---Heat pumps, heat pumps. And heat pumps. Add some solar panels if you can. On macro level we need more nuclear (in addition to wind and solar). In Finland we don't use almost any gas at all, except industry. It should be possible also in other countries. --- End quote --- What the point from heat pumps in current situation when they are powered by electricity? With current electricity prices it sucks anyway. As for solar panels, where I live they are almost useless in winter when you need that heat pump the most. Also unless you install water type with a lot of digging, air source type performance really sucks when there is freezing temperature outside. --- End quote --- You just need the coal until there will be a suitable storage technology But the activist and politics, who are mostly far far away and don't know the problems of common people, said no |
| tszaboo:
--- Quote from: wraper on August 25, 2022, 09:17:32 am ---We were connected to Russian/Belarus electric grid where we could buy very cheap electricity. In the name of energy independence we disconnected from it earlier this year. An effect on Russia/Belarus is close to zero. They do not get to sell a bit of cheap electricity, we pay 10 times more. Does not sound like independence to me. And Germany shutting down their nuclear plants in favor of natural gas in the name of ecology was simply moronic, not to say hypocritical. --- End quote --- In any case, you would need to make new agreements on gas transport from the various countries and oblasts anyway in the near future. There needs to be agreements after the dissolution on which country has ownership of the oil fields, or the pipelines. I don't expect this to be a long term problem, we just have to survive like one winter. --- Quote from: tom66 on August 25, 2022, 11:13:06 am ---Heat pumps reduce dependency on gas, which is going to be necessary anyway. And around here they are still cheaper than gas, e.g. 40p/kWh electricity with COP=4 is 10p/kWh of heat roughly, meanwhile gas is 10p/kWh but once you include gas boiler efficiency (80-85% in good circumstances under high load and low delta-T) then the cost is greater. Though the difference is still too small to make a huge amount of financial sense to switch to heat pumps, given one would cost ca. £10,000 to install in a modern home. --- End quote --- In a moderate climate, like here, I think an air to air heat pump, which is an air conditioner can be used most of the time. |
| tom66:
Agreed. I don't know so much about other countries but the UK rarely experiences many days below 0C. Heatpumps can maintain a year round COP of 3.5~4. You also have the option to use a hybrid system which burns gas on the coldest days but uses the heatpump for most heating otherwise. And summer AC is going to become more and more important, especially for people who work from home! |
| tautech:
The other option is to tear up the Paris accord and get back to exploring for fossil fuels and reopen coal mines and the like. Winter without heating is downright miserable for anyone let alone the elderly that fought and worked bloody hard for what we have today without us turning our backs on their sacrifices. Speaking of which, if Europe had made some back in February and punched back the world wouldn’t be in the mess it is today. |
| wraper:
--- Quote from: tom66 on August 25, 2022, 10:22:05 am ---I doubt Russia would allow anything but a total withdrawal of Western support from Ukraine before turning the gas taps back to full. Whilst it is almost certainly hurting Russia to only sell 20% of its gas (the country's GDP is 50% energy export and the majority customer is Europe; like EU there is strong focus to one customer - there are not enough pipelines to supply Asia, or export LNG etc.), I fear that Russia can probably outlast a reduction in gas purchases. --- End quote --- This may sound weird, but Russia do not suffer from sanctions related to energy sources. Yes they sell less of gas and oil to EU, but due to price increases they profit from energy sales as never before. So we are suffering for nothing :palm:. |
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