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| "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them) |
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| james_s:
--- Quote from: Marco on September 01, 2022, 05:33:52 pm --- --- Quote from: james_s on September 01, 2022, 05:23:38 pm ---A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation. --- End quote --- This seems more a question of inertia combined with labor shortages. The cooling industry has massive size and low margins, that disappears when the direction of the refrigerant gets reversed, but not for any fundamental reason. Heatpump central air with a refrigerant loop to the duct heat exchanger should be as cheap as cooling was a year ago, eventually it will be. --- End quote --- A heat pump isn't THAT much more expensive. About 12 years ago my friend had a 3 ton central heat pump installed and that was over $10k. A year ago another friend got a quote for a 2 ton central air conditioner and it was $5200 on top of what she was already paying to have a new furnace installed. Once you are having the furnace replaced that is about 80% of the labor needed to install both furnace and AC, so to just have AC installed probably would have been close to $10k. I think it is just the state of the HVAC industry in North America, it is rife with protectionism, there are a couple of major HVAC forums and they both totally ban all discussion of DIY work, advice, and prices. Almost all traditional supply houses will flatly refuse to sell to anyone who is not a licensed HVAC contractor, they won't even sell you simple repair parts or tools. They do it in order to not piss off their contractor customers, it's a racket. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: Marco on September 01, 2022, 05:38:51 pm ---In the US the F-gas implementation seems pretty benign to me, 50$ for a remote exam and you're certified to handle. Becoming certified for working with F-gasses takes 100x more here. --- End quote --- That's exactly what I did close to 20 years ago. Technically I am not supposed to work on equipment as large as central heat pumps and AC though, there are different classes of certification to work on different sized systems, and only the most basic one can be done online. That basic certification enables you to purchase refrigerant legally though and that's all you really need. The same principals apply no matter how large or small the system. |
| Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: james_s on September 01, 2022, 05:34:35 pm ---I think we're talking about the same thing, these things: https://hvacdirect.com/ductless-mini-splits/single-zone-ductless-mini-splits.html A company that installs them will typically mark up the equipment about double, and charge a minimum of a couple thousand dollars to come out and install it. I hate the HVAC industry, they lobby very hard to make it difficult for anyone that is not a member of their little club to touch the stuff. --- End quote --- Yes. I am quite surprised. I thought the prices were disastrous here. We all hope it's getting better. The HVAC trade union mafia has lobbied for decades to prevent the proliferation of environmentally friendly refrigerants, because only the high CO2 equivalent of the currently used F gases keeps them in business, because the legislator can't let "anyone" install these things. As a result, True Professionals^tm let the damaging gasses in the environment anyway, and consumer pays for this. (Although if the story about a simple $50 exam is true, then it's more like a mental barrier only in the U.S. It's lot more demanding here, the biggest problem is the required work time in a certified company.) But this is all changing. Propane is really coming this time. Small appliances like fridges have already transitioned, and it is only matter of time all larger heatpumps will be, too. End result is, legislator can't forbid people from handling propane, and hence, cannot prevent self-installation of split type heatpumps, either. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on September 01, 2022, 05:44:45 pm ---Yes. I am quite surprised. I thought the prices were disastrous here. We all hope it's getting better. The HVAC trade union mafia has lobbied for decades to prevent the proliferation of environmentally friendly refrigerants, because only the high CO2 equivalent of the currently used F gases keeps them in business, because the legislator can't let "anyone" install these things. As a result, True Professionals^tm let the damaging gasses in the environment anyway, and consumer pays for this. (Although if the story about a simple $50 exam is true, then it's more like a mental barrier only in the U.S. It's lot more demanding here, the biggest problem is the required work time in a certified company.) But this is all changing. Propane is really coming this time. Small appliances like fridges have already transitioned, and it is only matter of time all larger heatpumps will be, too. End result is, legislator can't forbid people from handling propane, and hence, cannot prevent self-installation of split type heatpumps, either. --- End quote --- Don't count on it. Back when it was legal to use R134a as an aerosol propellant it was a federal crime to vent it from a refrigeration system. When a gas is used as a refrigerant it is governed by different laws than when it is used for some other purpose. I have little doubt that it would be just as illegal for an unlicensed person to work with a hydrocarbon refrigerant, indeed it is currently a federal crime to charge a refrigeration system with propane, ostensibly due to the flammability danger. Propane is a very good replacement for R-22 though, its properties are almost identical, in fact the performance is slightly better, however it is highly flammable obviously. So yeah, it's pretty hard to stop people from doing illegal things, but the law can make it as difficult as possible for them to get the parts and tools necessary to do it. For what it's worth, I've been running propane in the AC system of my 1984 Volvo for years and despite being totally wrong for the system which is designed for R12, it works very well. I suspect the fact that it's an old enough system to have a real TXV helps, the cheaper fixed orifice stuff is more fussy. The flammability makes some people go into a panic, however I reasoned that there is already some 14 gallons of gasoline on board which is circulating under high pressure so what more risk is 6 ounces of propane going to cause? |
| langwadt:
--- Quote from: james_s on September 01, 2022, 05:53:04 pm --- --- Quote from: Siwastaja on September 01, 2022, 05:44:45 pm ---Yes. I am quite surprised. I thought the prices were disastrous here. We all hope it's getting better. The HVAC trade union mafia has lobbied for decades to prevent the proliferation of environmentally friendly refrigerants, because only the high CO2 equivalent of the currently used F gases keeps them in business, because the legislator can't let "anyone" install these things. As a result, True Professionals^tm let the damaging gasses in the environment anyway, and consumer pays for this. (Although if the story about a simple $50 exam is true, then it's more like a mental barrier only in the U.S. It's lot more demanding here, the biggest problem is the required work time in a certified company.) But this is all changing. Propane is really coming this time. Small appliances like fridges have already transitioned, and it is only matter of time all larger heatpumps will be, too. End result is, legislator can't forbid people from handling propane, and hence, cannot prevent self-installation of split type heatpumps, either. --- End quote --- Don't count on it. Back when it was legal to use R134a as an aerosol propellant it was a federal crime to vent it from a refrigeration system. When a gas is used as a refrigerant it is governed by different laws than when it is used for some other purpose. I have little doubt that it would be just as illegal for an unlicensed person to work with a hydrocarbon refrigerant, indeed it is currently a federal crime to charge a refrigeration system with propane, ostensibly due to the flammability danger. Propane is a very good replacement for R-22 though, its properties are almost identical, in fact the performance is slightly better, however it is highly flammable obviously. So yeah, it's pretty hard to stop people from doing illegal things, but the law can make it as difficult as possible for them to get the parts and tools necessary to do it. For what it's worth, I've been running propane in the AC system of my 1984 Volvo for years and despite being totally wrong for the system which is designed for R12, it works very well. I suspect the fact that it's an old enough system to have a real TXV helps, the cheaper fixed orifice stuff is more fussy. The flammability makes some people go into a panic, however I reasoned that there is already some 14 gallons of gasoline on board which is circulating under high pressure so what more risk is 6 ounces of propane going to cause? --- End quote --- you don't have a gasoline circulating inside the cabin, the risk is the evaporator leaking make the cabin a bomb, with a bit of luck the brushes in the fan will set it off at the right moment afaiu the few car ACs that use r290 have a secondary heat exchanger so that the evaporator isn't in the cabin air loop |
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