Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79195 times)

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Offline james_s

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A central heat pump for a forced air system runs around $12k+ with professional installation.

This seems more a question of inertia combined with labor shortages. The cooling industry has massive size and low margins, that disappears when the direction of the refrigerant gets reversed, but not for any fundamental reason. Heatpump central air with a refrigerant loop to the duct heat exchanger should be as cheap as cooling was a year ago, eventually it will be.

A heat pump isn't THAT much more expensive. About 12 years ago my friend had a 3 ton central heat pump installed and that was over $10k. A year ago another friend got a quote for a 2 ton central air conditioner and it was $5200 on top of what she was already paying to have a new furnace installed. Once you are having the furnace replaced that is about 80% of the labor needed to install both furnace and AC, so to just have AC installed probably would have been close to $10k. I think it is just the state of the HVAC industry in North America, it is rife with protectionism, there are a couple of major HVAC forums and they both totally ban all discussion of DIY work, advice, and prices. Almost all traditional supply houses will flatly refuse to sell to anyone who is not a licensed HVAC contractor, they won't even sell you simple repair parts or tools. They do it in order to not piss off their contractor customers, it's a racket.
 

Offline james_s

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In the US the F-gas implementation seems pretty benign to me, 50$ for a remote exam and you're certified to handle.

Becoming certified for working with F-gasses takes 100x more here.

That's exactly what I did close to 20 years ago. Technically I am not supposed to work on equipment as large as central heat pumps and AC though, there are different classes of certification to work on different sized systems, and only the most basic one can be done online. That basic certification enables you to purchase refrigerant legally though and that's all you really need. The same principals apply no matter how large or small the system.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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I think we're talking about the same thing, these things: https://hvacdirect.com/ductless-mini-splits/single-zone-ductless-mini-splits.html

A company that installs them will typically mark up the equipment about double, and charge a minimum of a couple thousand dollars to come out and install it. I hate the HVAC industry, they lobby very hard to make it difficult for anyone that is not a member of their little club to touch the stuff.

Yes. I am quite surprised. I thought the prices were disastrous here.

We all hope it's getting better. The HVAC trade union mafia has lobbied for decades to prevent  the proliferation of environmentally friendly refrigerants, because only the high CO2 equivalent of the currently used F gases keeps them in business, because the legislator can't let "anyone" install these things. As a result, True Professionals^tm let the damaging gasses in the environment anyway, and consumer pays for this. (Although if the story about a simple $50 exam is true, then it's more like a mental barrier only in the U.S. It's lot more demanding here, the biggest problem is the required work time in a certified company.)

But this is all changing. Propane is really coming this time. Small appliances like fridges have already transitioned, and it is only matter of time all larger heatpumps will be, too. End result is, legislator can't forbid people from handling propane, and hence, cannot prevent self-installation of split type heatpumps, either.
 
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Offline james_s

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Yes. I am quite surprised. I thought the prices were disastrous here.

We all hope it's getting better. The HVAC trade union mafia has lobbied for decades to prevent  the proliferation of environmentally friendly refrigerants, because only the high CO2 equivalent of the currently used F gases keeps them in business, because the legislator can't let "anyone" install these things. As a result, True Professionals^tm let the damaging gasses in the environment anyway, and consumer pays for this. (Although if the story about a simple $50 exam is true, then it's more like a mental barrier only in the U.S. It's lot more demanding here, the biggest problem is the required work time in a certified company.)

But this is all changing. Propane is really coming this time. Small appliances like fridges have already transitioned, and it is only matter of time all larger heatpumps will be, too. End result is, legislator can't forbid people from handling propane, and hence, cannot prevent self-installation of split type heatpumps, either.

Don't count on it. Back when it was legal to use R134a as an aerosol propellant it was a federal crime to vent it from a refrigeration system. When a gas is used as a refrigerant it is governed by different laws than when it is used for some other purpose. I have little doubt that it would be just as illegal for an unlicensed person to work with a hydrocarbon refrigerant, indeed it is currently a federal crime to charge a refrigeration system with propane, ostensibly due to the flammability danger. Propane is a very good replacement for R-22 though, its properties are almost identical, in fact the performance is slightly better, however it is highly flammable obviously. So yeah, it's pretty hard to stop people from doing illegal things, but the law can make it as difficult as possible for them to get the parts and tools necessary to do it.

For what it's worth, I've been running propane in the AC system of my 1984 Volvo for years and despite being totally wrong for the system which is designed for R12, it works very well. I suspect the fact that it's an old enough system to have a real TXV helps, the cheaper fixed orifice stuff is more fussy. The flammability makes some people go into a panic, however I reasoned that there is already some 14 gallons of gasoline on board which is circulating under high pressure so what more risk is 6 ounces of propane going to cause?
 

Online langwadt

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Yes. I am quite surprised. I thought the prices were disastrous here.

We all hope it's getting better. The HVAC trade union mafia has lobbied for decades to prevent  the proliferation of environmentally friendly refrigerants, because only the high CO2 equivalent of the currently used F gases keeps them in business, because the legislator can't let "anyone" install these things. As a result, True Professionals^tm let the damaging gasses in the environment anyway, and consumer pays for this. (Although if the story about a simple $50 exam is true, then it's more like a mental barrier only in the U.S. It's lot more demanding here, the biggest problem is the required work time in a certified company.)

But this is all changing. Propane is really coming this time. Small appliances like fridges have already transitioned, and it is only matter of time all larger heatpumps will be, too. End result is, legislator can't forbid people from handling propane, and hence, cannot prevent self-installation of split type heatpumps, either.

Don't count on it. Back when it was legal to use R134a as an aerosol propellant it was a federal crime to vent it from a refrigeration system. When a gas is used as a refrigerant it is governed by different laws than when it is used for some other purpose. I have little doubt that it would be just as illegal for an unlicensed person to work with a hydrocarbon refrigerant, indeed it is currently a federal crime to charge a refrigeration system with propane, ostensibly due to the flammability danger. Propane is a very good replacement for R-22 though, its properties are almost identical, in fact the performance is slightly better, however it is highly flammable obviously. So yeah, it's pretty hard to stop people from doing illegal things, but the law can make it as difficult as possible for them to get the parts and tools necessary to do it.

For what it's worth, I've been running propane in the AC system of my 1984 Volvo for years and despite being totally wrong for the system which is designed for R12, it works very well. I suspect the fact that it's an old enough system to have a real TXV helps, the cheaper fixed orifice stuff is more fussy. The flammability makes some people go into a panic, however I reasoned that there is already some 14 gallons of gasoline on board which is circulating under high pressure so what more risk is 6 ounces of propane going to cause?

you don't have a gasoline circulating inside the cabin, the risk is the evaporator leaking make the cabin a bomb, with a bit of luck the brushes in the fan will set it off at the right moment

afaiu the few car ACs that use r290 have a secondary heat exchanger so that the evaporator isn't in the cabin air loop   
 

Offline james_s

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you don't have a gasoline circulating inside the cabin, the risk is the evaporator leaking make the cabin a bomb, with a bit of luck the brushes in the fan will set it off at the right moment

afaiu the few car ACs that use r290 have a secondary heat exchanger so that the evaporator isn't in the cabin air loop   

Sure, but does it matter? Fires that start in the engine compartment spread to the cabin extremely quickly. Propane has a scent added to it that makes it reek of rotten eggs, it's not going to fill the cabin without me noticing and it would have to be a very fast leak to matter. It's lighter than air so it is easily vented, and 6 ounces is a small quantity. Every leak I've ever seen in a car A/C system has been under the hood, and most of them have been slow, dumping the charge out over a period of months or years. It doesn't concern me at all.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Those bricks are intended for inner walls only! You can't use these for outside walls, read the datasheet. Last year I have looked into these bricks as a light weight solution to upgrade my shed but the specs say these aren't suitable for outside walls.

They absolutely are intended for outside walls. Our 2004 house uses those.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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They absolutely are intended for outside walls. Our 2004 house uses those.

It is quite an obvious assumption that bricks can be used for outside walls. nctnico must be thinking about some special snowflake indoor-only brick. Never heard about such a thing.
 

Offline nctnico

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They absolutely are intended for outside walls. Our 2004 house uses those.

It is quite an obvious assumption that bricks can be used for outside walls. nctnico must be thinking about some special snowflake indoor-only brick. Never heard about such a thing.
:palm: Geez... you really missed the part where I wrote that I actually read the datasheet for those bricks... And that datasheet says 'indoor use'.

Throw this into Google translate:
https://www.wienerberger.nl/product/binnenmuur/producttypen/porotherm-metselblokken-pm20-en-pm25.html

I'm simply going by what the manufacturer recommends to use their products for.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 07:13:45 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online langwadt

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Those bricks are intended for inner walls only! You can't use these for outside walls, read the datasheet. Last year I have looked into these bricks as a light weight solution to upgrade my shed but the specs say these aren't suitable for outside walls.

They absolutely are intended for outside walls. Our 2004 house uses those.

exposed to the weather or covered?
 

Offline KaneTW

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exposed to the weather or covered?

Covered.
 

Offline KaneTW

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They absolutely are intended for outside walls. Our 2004 house uses those.

It is quite an obvious assumption that bricks can be used for outside walls. nctnico must be thinking about some special snowflake indoor-only brick. Never heard about such a thing.
:palm: Geez... you really missed the part where I wrote that I actually read the datasheet for those bricks... And that datasheet says 'indoor use'.

Throw this into Google translate:
https://www.wienerberger.nl/product/binnenmuur/producttypen/porotherm-metselblokken-pm20-en-pm25.html

I'm simply going by what the manufacturer recommends to use their products for.

There's some that are interior, some that are exterior. E.g. https://www.wienerberger.at/produkte/wand/produktkatalog/porotherm-25-38-plan.html is exterior and interior.
 

Online langwadt

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exposed to the weather or covered?

Covered.

so it is really an interior wall, inside what ever "wall" it is covered with
 

Offline tszaboo

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They absolutely are intended for outside walls. Our 2004 house uses those.

It is quite an obvious assumption that bricks can be used for outside walls. nctnico must be thinking about some special snowflake indoor-only brick. Never heard about such a thing.
:palm: Geez... you really missed the part where I wrote that I actually read the datasheet for those bricks... And that datasheet says 'indoor use'.

Throw this into Google translate:
https://www.wienerberger.nl/product/binnenmuur/producttypen/porotherm-metselblokken-pm20-en-pm25.html

I'm simply going by what the manufacturer recommends to use their products for.
Yeah, what I wrote. The same company has completely different product ranges for different countries. Here there are only thousand year old technology oven fired bricks, other countries get 50 cm thick ones with built in isolation.
 

Offline madires

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For those who think that we have an abundance of electricity:
- China Shuts Down EV Charging Stations to Conserve Power During Heat Wave (https://jalopnik.com/china-shuts-down-ev-charging-stations-to-conserve-power-1849453761)
- CAISO: Intensifying heat leads to another conservation call (https://www.flexalert.org/news/120-intensifying-heat-leads-to-another-conservation-call)
- French PM says companies may face energy ‘rationing’ this winter (https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220829-french-pm-says-companies-may-face-energy-rationing-this-winter)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 02:12:01 pm by madires »
 

Offline Marco

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If Kawasaki was just a couple years further along with their hydrogen turbines, they could have had a lot of sales now. Suddenly 25% round trip efficiency and low utilisation of electrolyzers doesn't look so economically unfeasible any more.

The current green hydrogen producers will probably have paid off their investments after this year.
 

Offline BravoV

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The so called "Operation Thermostat"  >:D is happening in US, just curious if similar case will happen also in EU countries especially in winter ?
As fact that many EU leaders already warned few days ago to their citizens about energy crisis to come.

Source -> https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/contact-denver7/thousands-of-xcel-customers-locked-out-of-thermostats-during-energy-emergency

Quote ...

Thousands of Xcel customers locked out of thermostats during 'energy emergency'

22,000 people lost control of temperatures in their homes for hours
...

Offline james_s

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The so called "Operation Thermostat"  >:D is happening in US, just curious if similar case will happen also in EU countries especially in winter ?
As fact that many EU leaders already warned few days ago to their citizens about energy crisis to come.

Source -> https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/contact-denver7/thousands-of-xcel-customers-locked-out-of-thermostats-during-energy-emergency

Quote ...

Thousands of Xcel customers locked out of thermostats during 'energy emergency'

22,000 people lost control of temperatures in their homes for hours
...

Pop the thermostat off the bracket and jumper a couple of wires together will solve that, at least on an individual level.
 

Offline nctnico

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Just got a letter with new electricity tariffs... another 50% on top which makes the price almost double of what I paid last year.  :'(  I'm starting to feel more and more sorry I didn't manage to buy the (used) solar panels I had an eye on.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 08:25:58 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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I dunno how effective solar panels would be where you live, but yeah. I kind of suspect that solar panel prices may go through the roof due to a sudden increase in demand and suppliers taking advantage of it.
 

Offline nctnico

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I dunno how effective solar panels would be where you live, but yeah. I kind of suspect that solar panel prices may go through the roof due to a sudden increase in demand and suppliers taking advantage of it.
My roof is has pretty much the best orientation and angle for solar panels. If the deal happened as I wanted, the payback time would have been less than 4 years even with the 'old' tarif.

Edit: I still spot several potentially good deals though... Hmmm....
« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 11:32:27 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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I dunno how effective solar panels would be where you live, but yeah. I kind of suspect that solar panel prices may go through the roof due to a sudden increase in demand and suppliers taking advantage of it.
My roof is has pretty much the best orientation and angle for solar panels. If the deal happened as I wanted, the payback time would have been less than 4 years even with the 'old' tarif.
'A little story if I may' in this post is relevant:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gas-armageddon-energyelectricity-prices-in-euuk-(and-how-to-deal-with-them)/msg4383610/#msg4383610
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline Someone

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The so called "Operation Thermostat"  >:D is happening in US, just curious if similar case will happen also in EU countries especially in winter ?
As fact that many EU leaders already warned few days ago to their citizens about energy crisis to come.

Source -> https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/contact-denver7/thousands-of-xcel-customers-locked-out-of-thermostats-during-energy-emergency

Quote ...

Thousands of Xcel customers locked out of thermostats during 'energy emergency'

22,000 people lost control of temperatures in their homes for hours
...
From that linked article for those who won't read it:
Quote
"It's a voluntary program. Let's remember that this is something that customers choose to be a part of based on the incentives," said Emmett Romine, vice president of customer solutions and innovation at Xcel.

Customers receive a $100 credit for enrolling in the program and $25 annually, but Romine said customers also agree to give up some control to save energy and money and make the system more reliable.
Customers opted in (possibly without fully understanding what they were signing up for) to receive a reduced cost supply in return for remote shedding being enabled on their thermostat. Which left them unable to set it to cool below 26 degrees, not some mass disaster, not some monopoly/government over reach, a $$ compensated minor inconvenience.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Yep. BTW I usually set the AC in my office to 25 or 26 degrees C. Otherwise I feel cold.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Someone

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Yep. BTW I usually set the AC in my office to 25 or 26 degrees C. Otherwise I feel cold.
The energy saving advice from the government here is cool to 26 in summer and heat to 19 in winter:
https://www.energy.gov.au/households/household-guides/seasonal-advice/summer-guide
https://www.energy.gov.au/households/household-guides/seasonal-advice/winter
They wouldn't be suggesting that if it was unsafe or disruptive. Want it less variable, you'll pay $$$ for that (example, offices that are 22 +/- 1 and hugely wasteful of energy).
 


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