Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79155 times)

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Offline Vovk_Z

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Two wars in Chechnya where Russia fought with basically a terrorist local government within its own borders, while West was crying foul about that.
Chechnya declared independence (as Ichkeria), and first their government definitely wasn't a 'terrorist'. They have done some bad things only being in a desperate position. Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, was leveled to the ground by the russian army. Tens or even hundreds of thousands of civilian people were killed by russians across that two wars. The first president of Chechnya - Djohar Dudaev was very intelligent man, and he was elected by the people at the election. He was killed by russians in 1996 (it was First Russia-Chechen war if I'm not wrong).
Dzhokhar Dudayev biography:
Quote
Dudayev rose steadily in the Air Force, assuming command of the 326th Heavy Bomber Aviation Division of the Soviet Long Range Aviation at Tartu, Estonia, in 1987 gaining the rank of Major-General. From 1987 through March 1990, he commanded nuclear-armed long-range strategic bombers during his post there.[8][11][a]. He was also commander of the garrison of Tartu. He learned Estonian and showed great tolerance for Estonian nationalism when in autumn 1990 he ignored the orders (as commander of the garrison of Tartu) to shut down the Estonian television and parliament.[4][8] In 1990, his air division was withdrawn from Estonia and Dudayev resigned from the Soviet military.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2022, 10:28:42 pm by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline IconicPCB

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A lesson for EU politicians and their electorates:

whom you should pray to ( gas supplier ) , you should not anger
 

Online nctnico

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It works both ways. Europe will have to make do with shutting down industries
A lot of those generic industries won't survive the transition to renewable energy anyway. Only the very high-tech, highly specialised companies that have second to none products will survive. There are many of such companies across Europe. I'm not worried at all.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline dietert1

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Sometimes i am wondering whether the LNG from USA will be russian gas in the end.

Regards, Dieter
 
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Offline Faringdon

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We'll not get into how dependant the USA currently is on China as a trade partner...the current effort to revive chip production in the USA is very telling.

Yes, theres chips, and a whole lot of other general electronics stuff.......soon, we wont have access to any of it, when "the other imminent invasion", related to the Russian invasion, gets underway.
Some British Army prototype military drones use Chinese electric drives.
I dont think withdrawing support for Ukraine is an option, no matter how cold it gets this winter....things will just end up getting even worse, and even colder,  for Ukraine and the rest of us, if we do.

By the way, i have a design for a "diverter electric shower", which allows low energy showering, if anyones interested in getting some investment to build it.
You can turn it on and off easily, and dont get frozen or scolded when it comes back on......and it keeps shutting the water off every 30 seconds.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 05:09:13 pm by Faringdon »
'Perfection' is the enemy of 'perfectly satisfactory'
 

Online Marco

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Invading Taiwan would involve 1000x more losses than Ukraine, China doesn't have 10s of millions to throw away on a fools errand. Blockade or throwing a nuke off the coast to force them into surrender are options, invasion is not.
 

Online nctnico

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Invading Taiwan would involve 1000x more losses than Ukraine, China doesn't have 10s of millions to throw away on a fools errand. Blockade or throwing a nuke off the coast to force them into surrender are options, invasion is not.
The Chinese electronics industry needs TSMC to continue production...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Invading Taiwan would involve 1000x more losses than Ukraine, China doesn't have 10s of millions to throw away on a fools errand. Blockade or throwing a nuke off the coast to force them into surrender are options, invasion is not.
The Chinese electronics industry needs TSMC to continue production...
Yeah they at least need to wait until the new US facility gets into production.
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Offline BravoV

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You're going to jail for heating your home, in evil communist of North Kore .... errrr wait ... in Switzerland.  :scared:

-> https://switzerlandtimes.ch/politics/heat-sinners-face-jail/

Quote ...

Heat sinners face jail

Anyone who turns the heating up too high when there is a lack of energy must expect a penalty.

If there is not enough gas in winter, the federal government wants to crack down. In buildings heated with gas, the interior rooms should be brought to a maximum of 19 C degrees (66.2 degrees Fahrenheit). Hot water should only be heated to 60 C degrees (140 degrees Fahrenheit).

Radiant heaters or warm air tents would be forbidden. Saunas and swimming pools would have to stay cold.

But it gets even worse: Anyone who violates the guidelines faces imprisonment or a fine. In the case of intentional action, a prison sentence of up to three years or a fine is possible. Even in the case of negligent violations of the measures, a fine of up to 180 daily rates is conceivable.
 
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Online Marco

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Rationing is the only moral way to divide non luxury goods in a crisis.

The alternative is social Darwinism.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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The Chinese electronics industry needs TSMC to continue production...

Yeah, and currently they can buy from TSMC like anyone else, and TSMC delivers just fine AFAIK. It's normal risk analysis: by taking over it violently, you could gain maybe some cost savings, maybe some technology improvements or better priorization when it is yours, but you risk losing it all for years or even longer.

My personal guesstimate is Chinese are not stupid to take that risk. China is doing pretty well IMHO, and their resources are better spent on creating competition on the mainland.
 

Online nctnico

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The biggest question is whether China is 'thinking' rationally about invading Taiwan or not. They'd be shooting a hole the size of the moon in their feet but might still do it out of nationalistic sentiment (in order to draw the attention away from problems brewing inside China).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JPortici

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A lesson for EU politicians and their electorates:

whom you should pray to ( gas supplier ) , you should not anger

No, the lesson is yet again "never put most/all your eggs in the same basket".
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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The biggest question is whether China is 'thinking' rationally about invading Taiwan or not. They'd be shooting a hole the size of the moon in their feet but might still do it out of nationalistic sentiment (in order to draw the attention away from problems brewing inside China).

One bigger question yet is whether you (or anyone here really) fully knows the ins and outs of China's politics in general and what's related to Taiwan in particular. The most probable answer is: absolutely not.

It's really concerning IMHO that so many people seem to take non-western countries as just completely clueless and irrational (while they are currently rising at a pace we never have). It's definitively as though we are completely unable to think outside of our small western box.

That is *our* problem and that's exactly what those countries are currently telling us. That includes all BRICS really. India seems "softer" but don't underestimate them either. Are we sure we are worth more, are morally better and have the capacity of fighting against China, Russia and India (and probably a lot of their allies)? Just wondering.
 
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Online tautech

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A lesson for EU politicians and their electorates:

whom you should pray to ( gas supplier ) , you should not anger

No, the lesson is yet again "never put most/all your eggs in the same basket".
And don't ignore the sabre rattling and testing the boundaries of what EU, NATO and others would accept (lie down and roll over) of these last few years.
Now you have to enjoy the most dangerous administration in the last 100 years as your neighbor ......well done Europe !  :clap:
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Online wraper

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It's really concerning IMHO that so many people seem to take non-western countries as just completely clueless and irrational (while they are currently rising at a pace we never have). It's definitively as though we are completely unable to think outside of our small western box.
To that I want to add they talk as if Western countries are some kind of holy beacon of rightfulness and everyone else should adhere to their agenda. I may blow your mind, but Western countries have only a relatively small part of total world population. And other countries which have majority of population have their own interests which often are very different, not to say contradictory. In other words, would you work for your own sake, or would do everything just as your neighbor says in his own interests? Even though he's a guy everyone respects.
 

Offline tonyget

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It works both ways. Europe will have to make do with shutting down industries
A lot of those generic industries won't survive the transition to renewable energy anyway. Only the very high-tech, highly specialised companies that have second to none products will survive. There are many of such companies across Europe. I'm not worried at all.

What makes you think that high-tech isn't energy intensive?Did you know that TSMC is biggest power consumer in TW,a single EUV machine consumes 30k kWh per day. It is anticipated that by 2025 TSMC will consume 25% of entire Taiwan electricity. Not to mention data centers AI trainings etc,the needs for computational power is growing and it requires lots of power.
 

Online nctnico

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It works both ways. Europe will have to make do with shutting down industries
A lot of those generic industries won't survive the transition to renewable energy anyway. Only the very high-tech, highly specialised companies that have second to none products will survive. There are many of such companies across Europe. I'm not worried at all.

What makes you think that high-tech isn't energy intensive?Did you know that TSMC is biggest power consumer in TW,a single EUV machine consumes 30k kWh per day. It is anticipated that by 2025 TSMC will consume 25% of entire Taiwan electricity. Not to mention data centers AI trainings etc,the needs for computational power is growing and it requires lots of power.
That is not my point. High-tech industry creates a lot of value. An old, inefficient steel factory that produces the kind of generic steel you can produce anywhere on the world, does not. Especially in a place with high energy costs.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 10:08:59 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online nctnico

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The biggest question is whether China is 'thinking' rationally about invading Taiwan or not. They'd be shooting a hole the size of the moon in their feet but might still do it out of nationalistic sentiment (in order to draw the attention away from problems brewing inside China).

One bigger question yet is whether you (or anyone here really) fully knows the ins and outs of China's politics in general and what's related to Taiwan in particular. The most probable answer is: absolutely not.

It's really concerning IMHO that so many people seem to take non-western countries as just completely clueless and irrational (while they are currently rising at a pace we never have). It's definitively as though we are completely unable to think outside of our small western box.
You are right up to a point but there are some universal values that all people want. Being able to live safely for example. Human rights violations are a big issue in China and you can't sweep that under the rug while declaring 'that is how their culture works'.

Some parts of a culture aren't perfect and western countries are no exception. In the Netherlands we have the ongoing discussion about 'black pete' (not to be mistaken for blackface; but some people do) which is deeply rooted in Dutch culture and goes back several centuries. But we (the Dutch people) are willing to listen to complaints and slowly change our habbits. That is where the difference is: being willing to listen to others and not stick to dogmas / telling people not to interfere with internal affairs.

OTOH the Chinese also know that some parts of their culture aren't positive. Like spitting on the floor for example which they are trying to ban.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 09:31:32 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tonyget

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It's really concerning IMHO that so many people seem to take non-western countries as just completely clueless and irrational (while they are currently rising at a pace we never have). It's definitively as though we are completely unable to think outside of our small western box.

That is *our* problem and that's exactly what those countries are currently telling us. That includes all BRICS really. India seems "softer" but don't underestimate them either. Are we sure we are worth more, are morally better and have the capacity of fighting against China, Russia and India (and probably a lot of their allies)? Just wondering.

Western media always portray articles in a western-centric fashion,substitute the world "west" with "global".

Such as "the global campaign against Russia aggression",which is actually limited within the west. I saw an article a while ago,it's about improving US-developing countries relation,it mentioned that many developing countries are very unhappy about the West took action against Russia without consulting with them,because the disrupted Russian food and fuel supply created massive crisis in many developing countries.



Same thing with Taiwan issue. I don't think any country outside of western camp supports TW's stance,or dispute China's stance on TW. But of course,western media will tell you that "the global community" is on TW's side.
 
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Offline james_s

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To that I want to add they talk as if Western countries are some kind of holy beacon of rightfulness and everyone else should adhere to their agenda. I may blow your mind, but Western countries have only a relatively small part of total world population. And other countries which have majority of population have their own interests which often are very different, not to say contradictory. In other words, would you work for your own sake, or would do everything just as your neighbor says in his own interests? Even though he's a guy everyone respects.

It's all a matter of perspective. I think almost anyone will feel that their own country, way of life, or that which is familiar to them is the way to go. Some people take this too far, but that is part of the human condition.
 

Offline BravoV

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The biggest question is whether China is 'thinking' rationally about invading Taiwan or not. They'd be shooting a hole the size of the moon in their feet but might still do it out of nationalistic sentiment (in order to draw the attention away from problems brewing inside China).

One bigger question yet is whether you (or anyone here really) fully knows the ins and outs of China's politics in general and what's related to Taiwan in particular. The most probable answer is: absolutely not.

It's really concerning IMHO that so many people seem to take non-western countries as just completely clueless and irrational (while they are currently rising at a pace we never have). It's definitively as though we are completely unable to think outside of our small western box.

That is *our* problem and that's exactly what those countries are currently telling us. That includes all BRICS really. India seems "softer" but don't underestimate them either. Are we sure we are worth more, are morally better and have the capacity of fighting against China, Russia and India (and probably a lot of their allies)? Just wondering.

Its all about narratives that suits the geo-political agenda by the US and the West.

For those who are old enough to remember in late 70s and 80s where the whole Western narrative to named Iran the "axis of evil" just because no more freebie on Iran's oil.  Lately this is going to change as energy crisis hit EU, and become friendlier and softer to Iran as all US & EU wants is to reduce the pressure on the energy price globally and ease the paint inflicted by themself by banning Russia energy.

Lately for the last 5 to 10 years, the narrative from the West is shifting and accelerating really fast on demonizing China, watch carefully the shift on "the narrative", soon China will be labelled "axis of evil" and the great threat of Western ... err .. I mean international rule based order.  :-DD

The similar scene is also happening in Europe, where the old narrative ... "we hate evil Putin, not Russians" is now shifting ... we hate all Russians, ban Russia culture/language/people and etc, you're smart to enough to recognize this pattern like the old one so called the "3rd Reich".  >:D

The sense of "entitlement" and superiority to criticize, lecture and to "fix" other countries is rooted on the colonialism mentality that the West have been enjoying for the past few centuries, but this is about to change, and its happening fast.

Suggestion, sometimes one needs to question self, why hate so much on certain countries/regimes/leaders, while sort of ignores others even they're nastier than your own standard (eg: Arab Saudi as easy example), is it possible what ever you hate or like is all artificially implanted (brainwashed) for decades by your own government and medias ?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 05:20:19 am by BravoV »
 
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Offline BravoV

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You are right up to a point but there are some universal values that all people want. Being able to live safely for example. Human rights violations are a big issue in China and you can't sweep that under the rug while declaring 'that is how their culture works'.

I guess with my post above on Switzerland's tyranny on jailing people who want to heat their own home, even they can afford it, is your concern too, right ?

Fyi, there are lot of rich people in Swiss, eg : Klaus Schwab and others.

Rather than "worry" for people at far-far away land China and Taiwan, why don't Dutch starting to deal with the "human right" issue in Switzerland as its so nearby ?  >:D

The argument is simple, if you do not have the right and freedom to heat your own home as you like, then as to guard & protect  :-DD the international rule based order, Dutch or EU countries must start to pressure/lecture or even fix Switzerland, sanction them, or even better topple their evil government that violate basic human right to get warm home, and support the opposition there.

Yeah, its all about fixing the narrative to suit your political agenda, isn't it ? So convenient.

Online wraper

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The similar scene is also happening in Europe, where the old narrative ... "we hate evil Putin, not Russians" is now shifting ... we hate all Russians, ban Russia culture/language/people and etc, you're smart to enough to recognize this pattern like the old one so called the "3rd Reich".  >:D
Oh yeah, Latvian government right now actively destroys all remaining Soviet era monuments supposedly because of evil Putin.
 

Online tom66Topic starter

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Rationing is the only moral way to divide non luxury goods in a crisis.

Yes, it is either ration energy, or force people to pay 10-20x more so that they self-ration.  I know I'd rather have rationing.

And frankly 19C home is fine!  If you feel a little chilly then wear a long sleeve t-shirt and a jumper, and you will be absolutely fine. 
 
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