Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79147 times)

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Offline JohanH

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you're smart to enough to recognize this pattern like the old one so called the "3rd Reich".

Can you all Putin defenders just join his "3rd Reich" project so we can get some real tech and energy discussions here.

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The argument is simple, if you do not have the right and freedom to heat your own home as you like

I've also heard that in some countries, people can be deprived of their freedom or even be forced to pay, if they drive faster than a certain speed limit! We are doomed!

On a serious note, ever heard of energy rationing? This is pretty much turning into war time and there is only one main actor to blame.
 
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Offline Vovk_Z

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because the disrupted Russian food and fuel supply created massive crisis in many developing countries.
I haven't heard about West sanctions to Russian food and fuel supply to developing countries. Can you give an example of such (but not a cite from Putin's speech)?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 10:32:20 am by Vovk_Z »
 

Online wraper

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because the disrupted Russian food and fuel supply created massive crisis in many developing countries.
I haven't heard about West sanctions to Russian food and fuel supply to developing countries. Can you give an example of such (but not a cite from Putin's speech)?
Sanctions are not on food as such. But on money transfer and transportation. Which makes it much more difficult to pay and transport. The result was food shortage and large price increase, and who do you think has the least money to pay while others snatch it right under their nose at higher price? Look at current situation with Ukraine and Russia reaching agreement to allow tankers with food leaving Ukrainian ports. And Zelenskyy boasting it's for saving Africa. Guess what, none of them have gone to Africa, all gone where they get paid more.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 10:51:58 am by wraper »
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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agreement to allow tankers with food leaving Ukrainian ports. And Zelenskyy boasting it's for saving Africa. Guess what, none of them have gone to Africa, all gone where they get paid more.
Tankers went to clients who bought that corn. If African countries haven't bought anything (I don't know) - is that a Zelenskyy's or Ukrainians fault?
Is it bad when Ukraine have a possibility to sell it's products abroad? An agriculture is about 25% (or more) of the whole Ukrainian export and income. So Ukraine can't sustain it's economy without it.

PS.: Are you really happy to protect Russian invasion to Ukraine and to spread Putin's agenda?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 11:00:54 am by Vovk_Z »
 
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Online tom66Topic starter

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Russia effectively sanctioned Ukrainian grain by blockading the Black Sea.  There are not sufficient land routes to get grain into international markets otherwise.

Anyway, it does not matter too much where the grain from Ukraine goes because allowing more grain into the market will cause prices to fall regardless.

Also let's not forget that Russia stole a load of Ukrainian grain too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61790625
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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On a serious note, ever heard of energy rationing? This is pretty much turning into war time and there is only one main actor to blame.

Don't let your (justified) anger misguide you. Energy crisis is much more complex than that.

Remember December 2021? People panic-switching from spot contracts back to fixed contracts because all time high prices exceeding 1EUR/kWh? I'm at loss how people collectively forgot this so quickly and started to talk about "Putin's prices" when this is just repeating.

Remember winter 2020? Grids of Sweden and Finland both on the brink of collapse. Fingrid reserve power plants running. Yet we are told in media "oh, nothing's going on, it was just a coincidence, we wanted to test run all these facilities, no worries at all". And we did import from Sweden who kindly supplied us despite their own shortage.

So there is nothing new here. Root cause is poor political choices all over Europe for decades and decades. We can only blame our own politicians, and ourselves for voting them.
 

Online coppice

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On a serious note, ever heard of energy rationing? This is pretty much turning into war time and there is only one main actor to blame.
Energy rationing is easy to achieve by controlling gas stations, and turning off mains power at selected times. However, I wonder what they can do with gas, which seems to be the thing with the biggest supply problem? Don't they need careful procedures to prevent explosions when turning the public gas supply off and on? I'm not sure. I've never seen the flow of gas stop since it was first turned on.
 

Online wraper

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Russia effectively sanctioned Ukrainian grain by blockading the Black Sea.  There are not sufficient land routes to get grain into international markets otherwise.

Anyway, it does not matter too much where the grain from Ukraine goes because allowing more grain into the market will cause prices to fall regardless.

Also let's not forget that Russia stole a load of Ukrainian grain too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61790625
Ukrainians placed sea mines too to prevent Russians invading from the sea. So it was not as simple as just Russians allowing food tankers to pass.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 11:25:48 am by wraper »
 

Online tom66Topic starter

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Ukrainians placed sea mines too to prevent Russians invading from the sea. So it was not a simple as just Russians allowing food tankers to pass.

And part of the agreement was that Ukraine would guide the ships through the unmined areas.  This is not news.   The problem is that Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  You cannot justify Russia's actions here, because they have no moral or legal justification.
 
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Offline JohanH

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Don't let your (justified) anger misguide you. Energy crisis is much more complex than that.


Of course it is politics that has caused the practical problems, whether it's countries shutting down NPP (Germany, Sweden), too much reliance on gas (Germany) or too much reliance on energy import (Finland). Now the Finnish national grid's (Finngrid) CEO recently stated that next year Finland will for the first time in 50 years produce as much electricity in a year as consumed. Not sure about peak capacity, though. Finngrid has 1.3 GW reserve capacity that can be started in 10-15 minutes. Two of these power plants already ran last night due to the exceptionally cold night. So there's nothing surprising to have reserve capacity running, it's part of the overall electrical supply contingency.

California grid had yesterday an all time high peak of 52 GW and texted all citizens to lower electrical consumption to avoid having to shut off parts of the grid. People listened and instantly lowered electrical consumption with several GW. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 11:35:46 am by JohanH »
 

Online wraper

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Ukrainians placed sea mines too to prevent Russians invading from the sea. So it was not a simple as just Russians allowing food tankers to pass.

And part of the agreement was that Ukraine would guide the ships through the unmined areas.  This is not news.   The problem is that Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  You cannot justify Russia's actions here, because they have no moral or legal justification.
I do not justify anything. I say it's all not as simple or straightforward as you say. I may understand/explain why Russia does something. Does not mean I justify their action of war.
 
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Online tom66Topic starter

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Energy rationing is easy to achieve by controlling gas stations, and turning off mains power at selected times. However, I wonder what they can do with gas, which seems to be the thing with the biggest supply problem? Don't they need careful procedures to prevent explosions when turning the public gas supply off and on? I'm not sure. I've never seen the flow of gas stop since it was first turned on.

I wonder if you reduce the gas pressure to domestic properties, it may limit the rate at which gas appliances can use gas.  Boilers will not be able to burn as much gas, and won't produce as much heat.  However, I think the issue is that this would lead to varying pressure as more appliances turn on, which could create some issues.
 

Online coppice

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Energy rationing is easy to achieve by controlling gas stations, and turning off mains power at selected times. However, I wonder what they can do with gas, which seems to be the thing with the biggest supply problem? Don't they need careful procedures to prevent explosions when turning the public gas supply off and on? I'm not sure. I've never seen the flow of gas stop since it was first turned on.

I wonder if you reduce the gas pressure to domestic properties, it may limit the rate at which gas appliances can use gas.  Boilers will not be able to burn as much gas, and won't produce as much heat.  However, I think the issue is that this would lead to varying pressure as more appliances turn on, which could create some issues.

Judging by the time to boil water on the hob, gas pressure does vary quite a bit. The gas energy content does change, depending on the source (its not pure methane by any means). That's a relatively long term change, though, and is adjusted for in pricing. Boil times seem to vary with the time of day.
 

Offline RoGeorge

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The problem is that Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  You cannot justify Russia's actions here

If it only were that simple.  Have you seen any of these:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPXDAOv6gXa3Xsx-rKLYd0W1LvhjlwCTk
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7imSoPkNITXIq7yhbh_rv35fqK7kFiAx
 ?

The problem is that both sides have their own kind of reasons to do what they are doing, or what they already did.  It is more complicated than just x-good, y-bad.

I think what we are seeing now in Ukraine is the followup of foreign influences over Ukraine from the last decade, and not just a caprice of Russia this spring.



Now, putting aside the Russia-Ukraine for a moment, and talking about the whole western world, I am not yet sure if the "collapse driven by our own governments" that we are witnessing lately is intentional or not.  To me, with each day it all seems more and more like a maleficent plot, and not just an unhappy train of events.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Now, putting aside the Russia-Ukraine for a moment, and talking about the whole western world, I am not yet sure if the "collapse driven by our own governments" that we are witnessing lately is intentional or not.  To me, with each day it all seems more and more like a maleficent plot, and not just an unhappy train of events.

The crisis that EU countries are facing was planned, "NOT" a back fired clumsy plan, its working as intended.

What are you witnessing is the massive power grab by EU officials (not elected by the people directly), to make Brussel sort of pseudo state that holds absolute great power above many of EU countries, and this is the right moment at the right time to do it, while keeps the escape goat the super villain Putin.

Watch how EU officials (NOT NATO) are now talking like NATO leaders, like talking to train troops, increasing military budget, send weapons to Ukraine and etc, the line dividing between EU and NATO is becoming so blur, don't you agree ?  >:D

Simple example, does Hungary's Victor Orban rings a bell ? He is fighting Brussels for the sake of "HIS OWN" people Hungarians, what is wrong with that ? He is now is most EU hated head of state, and being accused of Putin sympathizer. All he is done is to protect his own people and country's interest, which the reason he gets elected from the 1st place, not those EU officials.

The collapsed of EU countries governments (which is elected by the people) is happening day by day, I see you carry Romanian flag, do you think your country still have it's sovereignty on it's own ? Say on energy policy, money/budget policy (example what happened in the past like on Greece where the ordinary people's money in their bank can be freezed overnight just because Brussels said so) and many others.

The weakened state and weakened head of state (even elected by the people) , are the perfect combination to subdue a nation completely, and this time its happening in mass throughout the EU countries, amazing and scary at the same time IMO.

Btw, every times when appointing top EU officials (like at NATO), they must be blessed by Washington 1st or no go at all, its a public secret.  >:D
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 02:52:18 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline Marco

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I think what we are seeing now in Ukraine is the followup of foreign influences over Ukraine from the last decade, and not just a caprice of Russia this spring.

Ukraine saw what the EU did for Poland and the Baltics on one side and what Russia does for its people on the other ... much like the Trump election, foreign influence games are hopelessly overstated in importance.

Revolutions and civil wars are a messy business, meh. The mess in Donbass would have been less messy if they had simply been overrun without Putin's military aid and irregular soldiers. Which is ultimately why Putin had to invade, he felt pot committed to supporting Russian speakers in Donbass but simply giving weapons and planting irregulars would have stopped working sooner or later.
 
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Offline james_s

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Energy rationing is easy to achieve by controlling gas stations, and turning off mains power at selected times. However, I wonder what they can do with gas, which seems to be the thing with the biggest supply problem? Don't they need careful procedures to prevent explosions when turning the public gas supply off and on? I'm not sure. I've never seen the flow of gas stop since it was first turned on.

I wonder if you reduce the gas pressure to domestic properties, it may limit the rate at which gas appliances can use gas.  Boilers will not be able to burn as much gas, and won't produce as much heat.  However, I think the issue is that this would lead to varying pressure as more appliances turn on, which could create some issues.

That may work for a stove (hob) but something like a boiler or furnace will have an internal regulator. I've installed a handful of gas forced air furnaces and an important part of installation is measuring the gas pressure at the inlet and outlet of the gas valve and adjusting the pressure to within a specific range then clocking the meter to check the flow. If the pressure is too high it can damage the heat exchangers by overheating and prevent condensing in the secondary exchanger. If it's too low you can have condensation in the primary exchanger which will then rapidly corrode. I would not operate an appliance if the incoming gas pressure was not within spec.
 

Offline edpgc

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Watch how EU officials (NOT NATO) are now talking like NATO leaders, like talking to train troops, increasing military budget, send weapons to Ukraine and etc, the line dividing between EU and NATO is becoming so blur, don't you agree ?  >:D
I don't really understand this, NATO is a collection of countries, there isn't some sort para-leadership - they are the same people?
The problem with Orban is his determination to steam-roller through European unity, a divided europe is far more malleable to external factors, difference between being in the driving seat, or just along for the ride.
As for the EU being in the pockets of the USA, sure to some degree, but it's hard to align the reality of the last 20 years in the EU with the wishes of the White House.
 

Offline edpgc

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However, I wonder what they can do with gas, which seems to be the thing with the biggest supply problem? Don't they need careful procedures to prevent explosions when turning the public gas supply off and on? I'm not sure. I've never seen the flow of gas stop since it was first turned on.
Yes, you never turn off domestic gas supplies as there's a risk of problems (explosions) upon restoring supply.  However if you turn off electricity to an area you will find that gas consumption reduces dramatically - which is convenient.
 

Online bdunham7

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I wonder if you reduce the gas pressure to domestic properties, it may limit the rate at which gas appliances can use gas.  Boilers will not be able to burn as much gas, and won't produce as much heat.  However, I think the issue is that this would lead to varying pressure as more appliances turn on, which could create some issues.

Gas distribution systems here all have local (typically per-user/per-meter) pressure regulators that reduce the gas to the very low ~0.25 bar that the appliances need.  The distribution system is at  much higher pressure and reducing that won't affect the pressure at the point of use.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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I wonder if you reduce the gas pressure to domestic properties, it may limit the rate at which gas appliances can use gas.  Boilers will not be able to burn as much gas, and won't produce as much heat.  However, I think the issue is that this would lead to varying pressure as more appliances turn on, which could create some issues.

Gas distribution systems here all have local (typically per-user/per-meter) pressure regulators that reduce the gas to the very low ~0.25 bar that the appliances need.  The distribution system is at  much higher pressure and reducing that won't affect the pressure at the point of use.

They do here too. I expect the variations people are seeing in the time it takes to boil a kettle are more to do with the ambient temperature, temperature of the water prior to boiling, and volume of water being boiled, than anything else.
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Offline fourfathom

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I expect the variations people are seeing in the time it takes to boil a kettle are more to do with the ambient temperature, temperature of the water prior to boiling, and volume of water being boiled, than anything else.[/color][/size][/b]
I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?
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Offline Siwastaja

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I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?

Definitely, but #1 reason would be people measuring neither the volume of water nor time even if they seem confident about these parameters.
 

Online bdunham7

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I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?

Yes, to an extent.  This actually happens routinely as the blend changes depending on sources, etc and that is why the typical gas bill is per 'therm', which is a unit of energy.  Your meter measures the volume and then the gas company applies a correction factor based on the average energy content of the gas over the billing period to convert the volume to therms.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online coppice

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I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?
They can't avoid changing the blend. Natural gas has a high percentage of methane wherever it comes from, but other gases are in their too. Those gases vary from gas field to gas field, As a utility changes its sources of natural gas the blend and the calorific value changes. Depending where you live there may be something on your bill which is a correction factor for the average calorific content of the gas supplied in your area over the billing period.
 


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