Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79131 times)

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Online nctnico

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I expect the variations people are seeing in the time it takes to boil a kettle are more to do with the ambient temperature, temperature of the water prior to boiling, and volume of water being boiled, than anything else.[/color][/size][/b]
I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?
No. The burner would need to be replaced. There are several different types of natural gas with various levels of nitrogen content.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline fourfathom

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I expect the variations people are seeing in the time it takes to boil a kettle are more to do with the ambient temperature, temperature of the water prior to boiling, and volume of water being boiled, than anything else.[/color][/size][/b]
I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?
No. The burner would need to be replaced. There are several different types of natural gas with various levels of nitrogen content.
I know about burner replacement (we live in the country and use propane), but apparently piped natural gas can indeed be blended to some extent.  Probably not enough to be noticeable when heating the teakettle though.
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Online coppice

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I expect the variations people are seeing in the time it takes to boil a kettle are more to do with the ambient temperature, temperature of the water prior to boiling, and volume of water being boiled, than anything else.[/color][/size][/b]
I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but can they change the gas "blend", resulting in fewer BTUs per unit?
No. The burner would need to be replaced. There are several different types of natural gas with various levels of nitrogen content.
The variability of natural gas is mostly the mix of methane, ethane, butane, ethene. etc.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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If it only were that simple. 
One more Russian advocate?  :palm:
Do you think it is ok to spread russhist propaganda here?
Let me continue this your narrative: 'It isn't that simple and possibly Ukraine is so bad too so it bombs itself to make Russia look bad.'  /s
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 10:02:43 pm by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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Revolutions and civil wars are a messy business, meh. The mess in Donbass would have been less messy if they had simply been overrun without Putin's military aid
There wasn't any mess in Dobass without Russia. Only Russia started it, heated it, and wanted to show it as a 'civil war' so it could almost legally 'protect' Donbas with it's 'peacemaker forces', as it had done it in Transnistria or Abkhasia, etc. Russian FSB officer Igor Girkin (Strelkov) (now former officer) with its russian squad entered the Donbas from occupied Crimea and started combat operations with Ukrainian police, and after with Ukrainian anti-terrorist forces.
After installing a russian puppet administration in Lugansk and Donetst (major Donbass cities) Girkin resigned.
Later after that (I don't remember the exact year - 2017, 2018?) Girkin (Strelkov) even honestly admitted in an interview on youtube that it was he who lit this fire and started a real mess in Donbas.
About Girkin on Wikipedia
Here are his exact words (November, 2014):
"All the same, I pulled the trigger of the war. If our detachment had not crossed the border, as a result, everything would have ended, as in Kharkiv, as in Odesa. There would have been several dozen people killed, burned, arrested. And that would have been the end. And practically the flywheel of the war, which is still ongoing, launched our squad. We mixed all the cards on the table. That's it! And from the very beginning we began to fight seriously: to destroy subversive groups of right-wingers," Girkin said.
He added that he is also responsible for the further development of the military conflict, including after leaving Donbas.
"I am personally responsible for what is happening there. I am responsible for the fact that Donetsk is still being shelled. I am also responsible for the fact that Sloviansk is abandoned. And for the fact that it has not been released, I am also responsible bear responsibility," Girkin said.
He also admitted that the decisive role in the counteroffensive of the separatists in August 2014 was played by military personnel who came from Russia.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 09:51:08 pm by Vovk_Z »
 
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Online Zero999

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Ukrainians placed sea mines too to prevent Russians invading from the sea. So it was not a simple as just Russians allowing food tankers to pass.

And part of the agreement was that Ukraine would guide the ships through the unmined areas.  This is not news.   The problem is that Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  You cannot justify Russia's actions here, because they have no moral or legal justification.
I do not justify anything. I say it's all not as simple or straightforward as you say. I may understand/explain why Russia does something. Does not mean I justify their action of war.
That's also what I've being doing.

Going back to the point I made about the ethnic component to the war. Here's a thought experiment. If the war were to end today. What do you think would happen to all those ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine? Does anyone seriously believe they would be accepted back into society without any problems? A big reason for the war, was the Ukrainian Russians not being happy with the country becoming more aligned to the West. Putin believes he is helping them. I can't see this ending soon. I can see parallels with the troubles in Northern Ireland.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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What do you think would happen to all those ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine?
Do you think 'ethnic Russians' live only in Eastern Ukraine (but not all over Ukraine)? What do you think happen and happening now to them all over Ukraine?  |O
Do you really think we eat or crusify Russian babies for breakfast (as it was shown by Russian propaganda on the Donbas in 2014)?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 10:04:26 pm by Vovk_Z »
 
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Online Someone

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Energy rationing is easy to achieve by controlling gas stations, and turning off mains power at selected times. However, I wonder what they can do with gas, which seems to be the thing with the biggest supply problem? Don't they need careful procedures to prevent explosions when turning the public gas supply off and on? I'm not sure. I've never seen the flow of gas stop since it was first turned on.
There have been wide scale loss of gas events:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esso_Longford_gas_explosion
Nothing special done in restoring the flow, there is a Royal Commission report available online if you want all the technical details of the drama.
 

Offline Bud

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@Vovk_Z are you on a mission here?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online tautech

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@Vovk_Z are you on a mission here?
He is living the nightmare, Google where he lives.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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@Vovk_Z are you on a mission here?
I don't want to start itself any political talks. I just can't stand to hear russian propaganda speeches spreading. Because I'm full of it. And now (last 6 month) when I hear not only pro-russian speeches but and air alarms and my people diying of russian shells and rockets (that all together) - that is too much for me and I react to it.
It works in this way: first goes russian propaganda (about bad ukrainians or 'it is all not that simple' and then go russian army.
That's why everytime I hear 100% russian speech (e.g. Putin yesterday 'was conserned that Ukraine doesn't sell food to Africa, but sells it in EU instead' - I feel attacked, and react respectively. I feel like I must tell people in the world what narratives are 100% alighn with a Moscow Cremlin.
Sorry.
There are several typical keyphrases which typically mean they are russian narratives, and 'It's not that simple' is one of it. And reading my previous reactions you may find others. Some of them are steady (for 8 years now) and some of them are new topics going from russian Cremlin.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 07:46:19 am by Vovk_Z »
 
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Offline Vovk_Z

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@Vovk_Z are you on a mission here?
He is living the nightmare, Google where he lives.
Yes, thank you. It was a real nightmare in Spring (from the very beginning of the war in 24 of Fenruary), when russianZ tried to occupy Kiyv - the capital of Ukraine where I live. I witnessed russian planes (when they weren't afraid of our army in the first days) and rockets, with my wife in our flat. We couldn't know if we'll be alive till the end of the day or not. Large (the largest) guns (152/203mm) fired several kilometers away from my home.  It was more than a month - February and an April of a severe nightmare. Then in the first days of May Russians were chased away from Kiyv and most of the North. They called it 'a goodwill gesture' but it was anything but a 'goodwill'. ('A second army in the world' as they call itself , they realized they don't have enough forces and they needed Donbas more).
Now a frontline is far from my city, and news are encouraging (thank's to West help and weaponry!), so we (Kievites) kind of feel some relief.
Now I feel like I have again a chance to die my own death :) but not from some russian soldier.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 08:27:21 am by Vovk_Z »
 
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Online Zero999

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What do you think would happen to all those ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine?
Do you think 'ethnic Russians' live only in Eastern Ukraine (but not all over Ukraine)? What do you think happen and happening now to them all over Ukraine?  |O
Do you really think we eat or crusify Russian babies for breakfast (as it was shown by Russian propaganda on the Donbas in 2014)?
They're mostly concentrated in the east, which is why Russia is focussing its attention on that area.

More often than not, there's an element of truth to propaganda, so no, I don't believe they're crucifying Russian babies, but denying Russians jobs, housing and socially stigmatising them seems very plausible. This was probably going on before the war and will continue afterwards. A similar thing has happened to ethnic minorities in many parts of the world. Political instability, economic hardship and war make it worse.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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but denying Russians jobs, housing and socially stigmatising them seems very plausible.
That is a 100% untrue. You may find it as a logical explanation to a russian aggression, but there wasn't such a thing.
Ukraine just started to realize in 2013-2014 that its way to best life is aligned with Europe, but not with Russia (which was always an occupant and now is) - and this was a real cause (along with a Putin's desire to 'Made Soviet Union Great Again' - which is not possible w/o Ukraine).
The occupation of Ukrainian Crimea was conducted by Russia accordingly to a plan but not accidentally. It happened at a moment when our country was in a very weak and vulnerable position.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 08:53:50 am by Vovk_Z »
 
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Offline Vovk_Z

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They're mostly concentrated in the east, which is why Russia is focussing its attention on that area.
The east is a border with a Russia, which is why Russia is focussing its attention on that area! It is much easy to brainwash people in our east because they are closer and more connected to Russia, so it is much easier to influence there. Do you understand the term 'Russification'?
East of Ukraine (I mean cities but not villages) was russian-speaking (thanks to Russian Empire occupation and russification and then Soviet Union occupation and russification) and it was very easy for Russia to manipulate between 'russian-speaking people' and 'ethnic russians'. But there wasn't any ethnic conflict!. It possibly may be seen for you as an 'ethnic Russian-Ukraine conflict' but a Russia is the only aggressor and occupant.
Putin is a very weak and thin copy of Hitler or Stalin, but Russian propaganda is strong somewhere, as I see.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 09:29:39 am by Vovk_Z »
 
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Offline G7PSK

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Online tom66Topic starter

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The real reason why electricity prices are so high? https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk-news/great-wind-farm-rip-off-27889339?utm_source=sharebar&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sharebar

It seems that part of the UK governments agenda here will be to negotiate longer term contracts with these providers to reduce the rate.  Already Ofgem is consulting to decouple the cost of wind/solar from gas, which is something several energy companies have been pushing for already.

It probably will start with a kindly "please" but if they don't budge then it will go in via legislation.

It's one way the £100bn bill will be reduced, by perhaps up to £40bn.

Similar moves will be seen across Europe,  the EU have been talking about it already as well.

I think it's very much a fair move.
 

Online nctnico

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They're mostly concentrated in the east, which is why Russia is focussing its attention on that area.
The east is a border with a Russia, which is why Russia is focussing its attention on that area! It is much easy to brainwash people in our east because they are closer and more connected to Russia, so it is much easier to influence there. Do you understand the term 'Russification'?
East of Ukraine (I mean cities but not villages) was russian-speaking (thanks to Russian Empire occupation and russification and then Soviet Union occupation and russification) and it was very easy for Russia to manipulate between 'russian-speaking people' and 'ethnic russians'. But there wasn't any ethnic conflict!. It possibly may be seen for you as an 'ethnic Russian-Ukraine conflict' but a Russia is the only aggressor and occupant.
Putin is a very weak and thin copy of Hitler or Stalin, but Russian propaganda is strong somewhere, as I see.
From what I understand the people in the east of Ukraine where neglected and didn't share in the economic growth the the country making it a very fertile breeding ground for mutany. There will be people who feel they are discriminated somehow and like to belong to a different group. Ethnic 'problems' are everywhere and can easely escalate. Likely Russia has fueled this situation and lit the fire. It takes a very carefull analysis of events to figure out what has happened exactly leading up to the civil war in the east of Ukraine.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JohanH

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@Vovk_Z are you on a mission here?

For people living close to Russia (like in Finland), it is much easier to see through the vast amount of propaganda coming from Kremlin. We have been used to it for years. Recommended reading Putin's Trolls, by a journalist from Finland (translated to many languages):
https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Information/dp/1632461293

I can't imagine how it would feel also being invaded by the Russian army and on the same time being criticized by people from the west that are literally quoting Kremlin propaganda lines, straight from their book.

So you have to understand that anyone from Ukraine or Russia's border countries are going to speak up when they see Kremlin propaganda parroted.
 

Offline Vovk_Z

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From what I understand the people in the east of Ukraine where neglected and didn't share in the economic growth the the country making it a very fertile breeding ground for mutany. There will be people who feel they are discriminated somehow
It may be shown as that. But in a real life 1) all Ukrainian people were not very rich and 2) Donbas (east of UA) was the very donated region from all of the UA regions (bosses of Donetsk mafia ruled the region and in fact - the country. President Yanukovich was from a Donbas), 3) Russian TV and all propaganda (widespread in East, South, Crimea) showed Rusia as 'rich and good' (and stronk). Russia 'helped' them to understand that they are 'discriminated'. But the fact that it not only made propaganda thing, but it started real aggression with a force.

For example, Odesa, Dnipro, Zaporizhia, and Kharkiv (the largest south and east cities) were 'oppressed and neglected' as occupied Lugansk and Donetsk, in the same amount (/s). But since 2014-2015 they lived fine, safe and steady.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 11:22:49 am by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline JohanH

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From what I understand the people in the east of Ukraine where neglected and didn't share in the economic growth the the country making it a very fertile breeding ground for mutany. There will be people who feel they are discriminated somehow and like to belong to a different group. Ethnic 'problems' are everywhere and can easely escalate. Likely Russia has fueled this situation and lit the fire. It takes a very carefull analysis of events to figure out what has happened exactly leading up to the civil war in the east of Ukraine.

That's Kremlin talk. Of course every country have their issues with poor areas etc, but there hasn't been ethnic issues in Ukraine. The only reason Putin is invading is his imperialism and need for more land. Ukraine is a rich country with lots of resources, grain, shipyards, coal, gas and oil in the east. The whole Soviet fleet was built in Ukraine (Russia doesn't have such capacities; can't build large ships).  Of course Putin doesn't give a damned about the people. Russian army have killed 113 000 mostly Russian speakers in Mariupol.
 
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Online tom66Topic starter

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Don't forget, if they actually capture Mariupol and south east Ukraine for good, they will have access to an year-round ice-free port as well as land access to Sevastapol - that's a huge strategic advantage for Russia's navy and shipping trade.  I think that's the ultimate goal here, as well as the gas in Donbas, not any supposed "ethnic" reasons.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 10:11:41 am by tom66 »
 
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Offline Vovk_Z

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about the ethnic component to the war. Here's a thought experiment. If the war were to end today. What do you think would happen to all those ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine?
One more fact about 'oppression'. Here is a video made by Russian-speaking! Ukrainian travel blogger about Mariupol (he is from Vishgorod it's near Kyiv). It was made right before a large war (a couple of months before February 2022). Mariupol was (and is now) a 99-100% Russian-speaking industrial city. A blogger made a serial about "Cities which I could move to".
youtube. Ther are English subtitles too.

Btw, now, that blogger Sasha Lyapota became totally Ukrainian-speaking (like many other previously Russian-speaking Ukrainians). Russia and Putin helped him to de-russificy itself within a several month.

Btw #2. I was partially Russian-speaking too at work but became totally Ukrainian speaking somewhere in 2015 after Russia occupied Crimea and Donbas with one of the mottos 'We help and protect russian-speaking people'. Since that many Ukrainians turned totally to the Ukrainian language because they don't want Russia to 'protect' them, because Ukrainians started to understand what is 'Russian protection' (many knew it earlier, but not much).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 10:43:10 am by Vovk_Z »
 
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Offline G7PSK

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From what I understand the people in the east of Ukraine where neglected and didn't share in the economic growth the the country making it a very fertile breeding ground for mutany. There will be people who feel they are discriminated somehow and like to belong to a different group. Ethnic 'problems' are everywhere and can easely escalate. Likely Russia has fueled this situation and lit the fire. It takes a very carefull analysis of events to figure out what has happened exactly leading up to the civil war in the east of Ukraine.
[/quote]

I  understood that the East of Ukraine is where the mineral and oil deposits are along with much of industry. Many of the weapon systems the Russians are using were made in Ukraine and now they are having to go cap in hand to the North Koreans to obtain more weapons as one of the first things they did at the start of the invasion is destroy weapon and high tech factories. Much of what the soviet era research and development was done by Ukrainians, you might say that not only have the Russians shot themselves in the foot but also the head at the same time.
 

Offline dietert1

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There is a difference between Ukraine and western countries. While Ukraine was invaded twice, in 2014 and in 2022, Nato/EU countries were not. Western engagement stems from responsability as the current war was certainly triggered by western politics (e.g. cancellation of nuclear disarmament treaties, withdrawel from peace keeping in Afganistan, unrest in Belarus). What is a tragedy for Ukraine, apeears more like an accident or punishment from western view. We don't know yet how bad it can be.

Regards, Dieter
 


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