Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79090 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15797
  • Country: fr
This thread is getting largely off-topic already I guess. I'm surprised that it's not locked yet. I admire Dave's sense of moderation here for letting this discussion happen freely.

With that said, I think some people here might want to pause and take a look at the whole situation with a bit of distance to try and understand what's really going on and what is at stake. Probably they should also listen to what was said at the recent Eastern Economic Forum held earlier this month. Or you can just ignore it and keep going with your impressions. Your pick.
 

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2096
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
My impression is that there are two sides, one deliberately attacking unarmed civilians and civil infrastructure, and the other not. 

But we see through a glass darkly, and there's a "Fox" or "CNN" station bug burned into the phosphor, so...  :-//
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
My impression is that there are two sides, one deliberately attacking unarmed civilians and civil infrastructure, and the other not. 
That is one dimension of the situation. The other is that Russia and China seem to want the strengthen their influence on the world's economy and thus have more say in how the world is being run. If you think in terms of east versus west I don't think either side owns the absolute 'truth'. Still it is utterly foolish that peope even want to pursue this east versus west situation. 'Enemy at the gate' is right out of Machiavelli's 'Il Principe' a.k.a. the succesful dictator's handbook. We as 'the people' should not accept our leaders to try and fool us by such a trick.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 07:55:01 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Vovk_Z

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1478
  • Country: ua
Ukraine says Europe should stop buying Russian gas while continuing pumping it through their own territory, but Russia supplying gas to an enemy country it is at war.
Russian gas is vital to Europe (yet). So Ukraine will be the trusted transmitter of that hell gas until Europe stops buying it itself.
 
The following users thanked this post: Siwastaja

Online tom66Topic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7335
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Russian gas is vital to Europe (yet). So Ukraine will be the trusted transmitter of that hell gas until Europe stops buying it itself.

Also, Ukraine gets paid by Gazprom some transmission fees, which surely help the economy and war effort.
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1564
  • Country: au
In Europe and America there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mister Krushchev said, "We will bury you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It'd be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too
How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
There is no monopoly on common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology, regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too
There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the president?
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie we don't believe anymore
Mister Reagan says, "We will protect you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too
We share the same biology, regardless of ideology
But what might save us, me and you
Is if the Russians love their children too

A song back from USSR days.
Note how only Russians are refferenced .. and may I point out... Mr Khrushchev was Ukrainian who ceded the now contested Crimean peninsula to Ukraine.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 10:57:19 pm by IconicPCB »
 



Offline VK3DRB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2272
  • Country: au
We are also paying high gas prices in Australia because foreign tax evaders like Chevron come here, mine our gas and sell it back to us at record prices. Our politicians are too dumb, inept and lame to fix the problem.

But for the UK and everywhere else, it is best to fix a problem by getting to the root of it. When Putin and his cronies are dispatched to hell, the energy prices in the UK and everywhere else will reduce. To kill a weed you have to pull it out by the roots. Fix the problem at its source.
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9321
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Perhaps a simple solution would be to lower energy rates for households that get limiters installed on their heating systems?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online vad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 518
  • Country: us
Note how only Russians are refferenced .. and may I point out... Mr Khrushchev was Ukrainian who ceded the now contested Crimean peninsula to Ukraine.
He did not. Presidium of the Supreme Soviet (Soviet parliament) did.
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1564
  • Country: au
Whilst official documentation points to  the Presidium, a more probable explanation  may be found

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-did-russia-give-away-crimea-sixty-years-ago

implicating Khrushchev to his gills.
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Russia is not even all in into a full-fledged war with Ukraine at this moment. Only a relatively small part of total army is deployed there. No conscript soldiers (Russia has a large reserve of that if needed), only professional military who work on contract. The only conscript soldiers are from DPR/LPR (separatist regions of Ukraine).

... and also the musician (Группа Вагнера)

This is some really weird war FWIW. Ukraine says Europe should stop buying Russian gas while continuing pumping it through their own territory, but Russia supplying gas to an enemy country it is at war. Do not recall something like that in history.

Currently, when it comes to gas in EU, all the noise is just distractions to their people, meanwhile EU governments are ...


Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1564
  • Country: au
IBM allegedly supplying the calculating machines to Hitlers war effort?
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Ukraine says Europe should stop buying Russian gas while continuing pumping it through their own territory.

Oh, this one's simple: Europe (esp. Germany) wants to buy Russian gas, but Europe supports Ukraine, so Ukraine's interest is to let the gas flow to their supporter. Basically Europe supports both Ukraine and Russia (through the gas payments, especially artificially inflated gas price).

Getting the gas through is everybody's shared interest so it's no surprise it happens. Even though everyone feels bad doing that.

But it now seems this might be slowly changing with the "we don't want to sell after all, no wait we want, no wait..." & "we don't want to buy, no wait, we want to buy, no wait we don't" game. Let's see what happens.

Apart from supporting Ukraine & Russia, what you do not realize is also supporting the kleptocrats in Brussels, this moment is the golden opportunity to do that as the Europeans are convinced to be milked with the excuse of punishing Russia.  :-DD

The same gas can be obtained far more cheaper (meaning no cut or corruption) thru Nord Stream 2, yes, its weak & vulnerable times for EU when it comes on depending too much on Russia's energy, and this problem needs time to fix.

The stupid question is why the EU elites do it in the most painful and expensive way, instead of cheap one, its still the same evil Russia gas they're buying.  :-//

You do not need to be a genius to know there are a bunch elite people (EU kleptocrats) are laughing their way to the bank.  :-DD  >:D

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Perhaps a simple solution would be to lower energy rates for households that get limiters installed on their heating systems?

Meanwhile in CNN, Breaking news !!! North Korea is starting to implement heat limiter at every homes, the evil authoritarian government is suppressing the people's right & freedom even to heat a bit more, the freedom over just few degrees warmer of temperature in their home is totally obliterated, can you imagine what ever freedom left for them, what an evil system.  :--  :--  :--

Just remember ... don't you dare to apply the same narrative for "exceptionalism" Western world, remember that, or ELSE !!!  :-DD

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 29810
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
While this thread has drifted far OffT but yet still OnT as the content has been largely about cause and effect and the reverse we should show our appreciation to the OP for starting a great discussion where we have mostly seen eye to eye despite the different challenges that await us in the next few months.

Thanks Tom for starting this.  :-+
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5155
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Perhaps a simple solution would be to lower energy rates for households that get limiters installed on their heating systems?
Similar things already exist, but the unwashed masses turn it around and make out like its unfair (the poster above this being an example). Already came up in this thread... with the same poster adding misleading drama around it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gas-armageddon-energyelectricity-prices-in-euuk-(and-how-to-deal-with-them)/msg4396097/#msg4396097

Water is considered an essential resource for residents, but its supply pricing is treated quite differently to the "equally" essential electricity/gas/heating. Here in Australia the first essential 400-500 litres per day (averaged over the billing period) is charged at a lower rate, then usage beyond that is at a higher rate (often much much higher). Gas and electricity? the reverse! most (all?) tiered plans make the unit cost cheaper the more you use.
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7549
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Perhaps a simple solution would be to lower energy rates for households that get limiters installed on their heating systems?
Similar things already exist, but the unwashed masses turn it around and make out like its unfair (the poster above this being an example). Already came up in this thread... with the same poster adding misleading drama around it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gas-armageddon-energyelectricity-prices-in-euuk-(and-how-to-deal-with-them)/msg4396097/#msg4396097

Water is considered an essential resource for residents, but its supply pricing is treated quite differently to the "equally" essential electricity/gas/heating. Here in Australia the first essential 400-500 litres per day (averaged over the billing period) is charged at a lower rate, then usage beyond that is at a higher rate (often much much higher). Gas and electricity? the reverse! most (all?) tiered plans make the unit cost cheaper the more you use.

Read here in Swiss -> https://switzerlandtimes.ch/politics/heat-sinners-face-jail/

Offline Forester

  • Newbie
  • !
  • Posts: 6
  • Country: 00
Russia wants Ukraine and other countries bordering on it to be under its influence. It is as natural as China influences the countries bordering it. Or the US to Mexico and Latin America. Every strong neighbor influences the weak one. In Europe, too, there is an influence of strong countries on weak ones. And all the strong countries are fighting among themselves for influence over the weak, if they are of any interest. Ukraine was not lucky that Russia and the West wanted to influence it. The fact that Russia is against the influence of the West in Ukraine is as natural as if the United States were against the influence of Russia on Mexico.
My opinion may seem wrong to someone here, since the overwhelming majority of people here are pro-Western. But there are people in the world who think otherwise. And they also believe their point of view is correct.
The Ukrainian colleague above called Ukraine a reliable gas supplier. I do not want to agree with this, because I remember what happened about 15 years ago. Then Ukraine was stealing gas going to Europe. Now many do not remember this, because Europe has not received problems because of this. But it was.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5155
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Perhaps a simple solution would be to lower energy rates for households that get limiters installed on their heating systems?
Similar things already exist, but the unwashed masses turn it around and make out like its unfair (the poster above this being an example). Already came up in this thread... with the same poster adding misleading drama around it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gas-armageddon-energyelectricity-prices-in-euuk-(and-how-to-deal-with-them)/msg4396097/#msg4396097

Water is considered an essential resource for residents, but its supply pricing is treated quite differently to the "equally" essential electricity/gas/heating. Here in Australia the first essential 400-500 litres per day (averaged over the billing period) is charged at a lower rate, then usage beyond that is at a higher rate (often much much higher). Gas and electricity? the reverse! most (all?) tiered plans make the unit cost cheaper the more you use.

Read here in Swiss -> https://switzerlandtimes.ch/politics/heat-sinners-face-jail/
That's the extreme end of mandating population wide limits, a blunt instrument as individuals weren't incentivised to make the change for their own benefit. Introducing or requiring variable pricing could avoid the need for such harsh measures. But you'll just argue that any change to reduce peoples energy use is an affront to their freedoms.

The days of cheap/infinite energy on demand are no longer here and may never come back. There needs to be some change, be that free market (the rich can pay and the poor freeze), or totalitarian (everyone must set their thermostat to exactly this number). Somewhere in-between is going to be more palatable for most.

Suggesting that there is a non-linear pricing where people get a subsidised essential/basic/livable daily budget at an affordable price, and then tax/milk those who want more doesn't sound silly. Much better than subsidising (or worse capping) everyones bills indiscriminately.

Which is why this is so political, helping out those who need it? socialism communism! communism bad! rah rah rah. Distracting from the actual economic disaster that is pending. Which your inflammatory posts are just perpetuating.
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9336
  • Country: fi
Gas and electricity? the reverse! most (all?) tiered plans make the unit cost cheaper the more you use.

Same here, the government is planning a subsidy program where electricity costs exceeding a certain threshold can apply for 60% tax deduction, and this threshold is pretty high. It's a subsidy for those who are wasting a lot of energy, who bought excessively large house with direct electric heating, and always failed to retrofit any heatpumps although they have been highly popular here for 15 years now, or do anything about their energy use, really.

The poorest get no help, again.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, tooki

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8218
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Perhaps a simple solution would be to lower energy rates for households that get limiters installed on their heating systems?
Similar things already exist, but the unwashed masses turn it around and make out like its unfair (the poster above this being an example). Already came up in this thread... with the same poster adding misleading drama around it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gas-armageddon-energyelectricity-prices-in-euuk-(and-how-to-deal-with-them)/msg4396097/#msg4396097

Water is considered an essential resource for residents, but its supply pricing is treated quite differently to the "equally" essential electricity/gas/heating. Here in Australia the first essential 400-500 litres per day (averaged over the billing period) is charged at a lower rate, then usage beyond that is at a higher rate (often much much higher). Gas and electricity? the reverse! most (all?) tiered plans make the unit cost cheaper the more you use.

Read here in Swiss -> https://switzerlandtimes.ch/politics/heat-sinners-face-jail/
Fake news.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/fact-check--will-the-swiss-be-jailed-for-heating-their-homes-above-19-c-/47894052
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, tooki

Offline Faringdon

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2124
  • Country: gb
Quote
Putin isn't going to go nuclear, because his advisors would not let him.
Putin will go nuclear when we go nuclear on him.
We have no choice but to go absolute full nuclear on Putin if he doesnt get Russia totally out of all Ukraine.
..As per my threads #542 and #619 above.
'Perfection' is the enemy of 'perfectly satisfactory'
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 29810
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Quote
Putin isn't going to go nuclear, because his advisors would not let him.
Putin will go nuclear when we go nuclear on him.
We have no choice but to go absolute full nuclear on Putin if he doesnt get Russia totally out of all Ukraine.
..As per my threads #542 and #619 above.
It might seem you can't see the wood for the Treez.

The sacrifice is far too great with nukes whereas if the EU was to grow some gonads and make a far lesser sacrifice as it should've months ago and all stand shoulder to shoulder against the aggressor, the most dangerous leader in a century, this would be have been all over by now with a very clear line in the sand and a strong message not to cross it !
But, if we continue to be run by children the current state of affairs will continue for some while yet.

When there are zero ppls left in Ukraine to defend their nation is the EU to watch it be taken by default ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66, KE5FX, tooki


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf