Author Topic: "Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)  (Read 79086 times)

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Offline IconicPCB

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and everybody ignores alleged deaths of some 15000 Ukrainian citizens in Donbas slaughtered by the Ukrainian government in the past seven to eight years way before Russia went into U sector and  kraine.

These people were murdered by the followers of Bandera often times as members of the Right Sector and Azov brigades with the blessing of Kiev government.
 
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Online Vovk_Z

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Whilst official documentation points to  the Presidium, a more probable explanation  may be found
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/why-did-russia-give-away-crimea-sixty-years-ago
implicating Khrushchev to his gills.
Crimea was very stagnating region with soviets (within Russian Soviet Republic inside USSR), and especially bad it become when Stalin deported Crimean Tatars from Crimea in 1944. A lot of russians were invited to former Tatars homes. But russians showed themselves as bad owners of that soil.
At the same time Ukrainians were well known as good at agriculture and good masters. So, transmitting a Crimea from Russian Soviet Republic to Ukraine Soviet Republic government (inside USSR) was just a good reasonable practical decision. And it was proved fine (Soviets made not only bad decisions but sometimes they did something reasonable too).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 12:00:01 pm by Vovk_Z »
 

Online Vovk_Z

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These people were murdered by the followers of Bandera often times as members of the Right Sector and Azov brigades with the blessing of Kiev government.
This is misinformation and russian terrorist state propaganda.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 12:06:49 pm by Vovk_Z »
 
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Online nctnico

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and everybody ignores alleged deaths of some 15000 Ukrainian citizens in Donbas slaughtered by the Ukrainian government in the past seven to eight years way before Russia went into U sector and  kraine.
Nobody is ignoring that but the big question is: who told those people to take up arms against their own government? If you start a civil war against the government, it is to be expected that there will be casualties.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online wraper

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and everybody ignores alleged deaths of some 15000 Ukrainian citizens in Donbas slaughtered by the Ukrainian government in the past seven to eight years way before Russia went into U sector and  kraine.
Nobody is ignoring that but the big question is: who told those people to take up arms against their own government? If you start a civil war against the government, it is to be expected that there will be casualties.
The problem is that it wasn't the government they elected. It was government led by ultra nationalists which came in power in coup d'etat.
 
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Offline IconicPCB

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They did not take up arms...all they wanted was self determination  WITHIN Ukraine.
I repeat WITHIN Ukraine.

All they got was death and destruction from Kiev government. Not freedom of choice.
 
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Online Marco

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They did not take up arms
If they didn't it would have been a very short lived separatism.
 

Online Vovk_Z

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The problem is that it wasn't the government they elected. It was government led by ultra nationalists which came in power in coup d'etat.
'Thank you' for giving us one more russian propaganda item. Russian FSB opinion is very important for us. /s
This statement is so dumb I even don't want to discuss it. Sorry.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 03:01:16 pm by Vovk_Z »
 

Online wraper

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The problem is that it wasn't the government they elected. It was government led by ultra nationalists which came in power in coup d'etat.
'Thank you' for giving us one more russian propaganda item. Russian FSB opinion is very important for us. /s
This statement is so dumb I even don't want to discuss it. Sorry.
I don't care about FSB opinion. But I know very well about Right sector checkpoints https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector on the roads and massacre in Odessa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odesa_clashes as I was on a business trip near Odesa at the time. IIRC the same day a few helicopters where shot down at Donbass. No serious blood was spilled before that, except during coup d'etat in Kiev. Next day I quickly left Ukraine though Moldova border on foot to get away from that shit. Here is a photo from my old passport to prove I don't talk rubbish.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 03:37:21 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Well, if they weren't "ultra nationalists" before, they certainly are now.  >:(

Heck of a job, Vlad.
 

Online nctnico

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and everybody ignores alleged deaths of some 15000 Ukrainian citizens in Donbas slaughtered by the Ukrainian government in the past seven to eight years way before Russia went into U sector and  kraine.
Nobody is ignoring that but the big question is: who told those people to take up arms against their own government? If you start a civil war against the government, it is to be expected that there will be casualties.
The problem is that it wasn't the government they elected. It was government led by ultra nationalists which came in power in coup d'etat.

It is not that simple. There is a whole string of events going back from the fall of the USSR that has led to the current situation in Ukraine with many players involved. If you really want to point fingers, you need to unravel that first in great detail (and likely get rid of layers of propaganda in the process) to dig down to the actual facts.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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and everybody ignores alleged deaths of some 15000 Ukrainian citizens in Donbas slaughtered by the Ukrainian government in the past seven to eight years way before Russia went into U sector and  kraine.
Nobody is ignoring that but the big question is: who told those people to take up arms against their own government? If you start a civil war against the government, it is to be expected that there will be casualties.
The problem is that it wasn't the government they elected. It was government led by ultra nationalists which came in power in coup d'etat.

It is not that simple. There is a whole string of events going back from the fall of the USSR that has led to the current situation in Ukraine with many players involved. If you really want to point fingers, you need to unravel that first in great detail (and likely get rid of layers of propaganda in the process) to dig down to the actual facts.
And US certainly has nothing to do with that.



« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 05:14:56 pm by wraper »
 
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Online nctnico

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I never implied the US has nothing to do with what is happening. It would be utterly naive to think that the US has been sitting on their hands. Earlier in this thread I already wrote that it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out the US has helped Poetin to gain power over Russia. Then again I'm not going to rely on random Youtube videos posing as a reliable source of information.

Either way, it is going to be more productive on focussing on how to resolve the situation and keep it stable in the future. For that to happen Russia has to get (or kicked) out of Ukraine first. After that everyone can calm down.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 06:24:08 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline vad

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Either way, it is going to be more productive on focussing on how to resolve the situation and keep it stable in the future. For that to happen Russia has to get (or kicked) out of Ukraine first. After that everyone can calm down.
Putin will loose his grip on power when Russian military is defeated in Ukraine.

The fastest way to do it - give Ukraine weapons it needs.
 
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Online wraper

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Either way, it is going to be more productive on focussing on how to resolve the situation and keep it stable in the future. For that to happen Russia has to get (or kicked) out of Ukraine first. After that everyone can calm down.
Putin will loose his grip on power when Russian military is defeated in Ukraine.

The fastest way to do it - give Ukraine weapons it needs.
Or it happens in exactly opposite way, ensures prolonged stalemate war and maximizes casualties. Sure it will weaken Russia a lot. However the price of humans lives in Ukraine would be devastating.
 

Online langwadt

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Either way, it is going to be more productive on focussing on how to resolve the situation and keep it stable in the future. For that to happen Russia has to get (or kicked) out of Ukraine first. After that everyone can calm down.
Putin will loose his grip on power when Russian military is defeated in Ukraine.

The fastest way to do it - give Ukraine weapons it needs.
Or it happens in exactly opposite way, ensures prolonged stalemate war and maximizes casualties. Sure it will weaken Russia a lot. However the price of humans lives in Ukraine would be devastating.

what's the alternative, let Putin have Ukraine and hope he doesn't decide to "denazify" more neighboring countries?

 
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Offline IconicPCB

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 Implement the Minsk agreement.

France and Germany need to face up to their responsibility as guarantors of the agreement.

As is Ukrainian leadership past and present has admitted to using the negotiation to delay resolution and to prepare for war not for peace.

In other words Ukraine negotiated in bad faith never intending to adhere to the agreement.
In the meantime Donbas civilians kept being slaughtered for seven, eight years.

And our tax dollar is being used to support these activities.
 

Offline daqq

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Or it happens in exactly opposite way, ensures prolonged stalemate war and maximizes casualties. Sure it will weaken Russia a lot. However the price of humans lives in Ukraine would be devastating.
I'm sure that Russia would stop at Ukraine, and it would be to the benefit of the locals if Russia took over. I mean, appeasement of a sort always worked so far, right? Okay, the USSR screwed up historically several times in that area, among other things creating a system which managed to screw up massively enough to create a massive famine that took millions of lives on one of the most fertile lands in the world, purges, the whole delights of communism complete with a secret police thing... but I'm sure that was a fluke(s), and it's frankly a wonder that the Ukrainians aren't greeting the effective successors to the USSR with open arms! (sarcasm)

At the end of the day I'd say that it's up to the Ukrainians - the option for them to give up was always on the table. It seems clear to me that they keep on fighting despite the horrors inflicted upon them by Russia. As far as I'm concerned, that's heroism.

And, just saying, applying a similar mindset (don't support the defending side to "minimize loss of life") during WW2 could have shortened the war considerably, if with a slightly different result.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Offline KE5FX

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Or it happens in exactly opposite way, ensures prolonged stalemate war and maximizes casualties. Sure it will weaken Russia a lot. However the price of humans lives in Ukraine would be devastating.

Russia can stop the bloodshed anytime they want, simply by leaving.

Ukraine can stop the bloodshed anytime they want, simply by surrendering.

Sounds like you favor the second outcome, if I'm not mistaken?  That seems a bit harsh.
 
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Online tautech

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Or it happens in exactly opposite way, ensures prolonged stalemate war and maximizes casualties. Sure it will weaken Russia a lot. However the price of humans lives in Ukraine would be devastating.

Russia can stop the bloodshed anytime they want, simply by leaving.

Ukraine can stop the bloodshed anytime they want, simply by surrendering.

Sounds like you favor the second outcome, if I'm not mistaken?  That seems a bit harsh.
Spineless would be my take on it and they've proved to the whole world spineless they certainly are not.
Other parts of EU I'm not so sure.  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
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Offline vad

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Or it happens in exactly opposite way, ensures prolonged stalemate war and maximizes casualties. Sure it will weaken Russia a lot. However the price of humans lives in Ukraine would be devastating.
This depends on West’s willingness to provide necessary weapons.

Ukrainian Armed Forces need heavy armor, such as main battle tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, to conduct offensive operations to liberate its land from Russian occupation forces. 7 months since the invasion started, neither the US, nor UK, nor Germany are willing to supply heavy armor.

With such inadequate support from the West, there is risk that the war will last for several years, with heavy  toll on both sides.

Increasing security assistance to Ukraine, will expedite downfall of Russia’s fascists regime, and will  save many thousands of lives.
 

Online themadhippy

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Quote
there is risk that the war will last for several years,
excellent news for those with shares in the arms industry

Quote
Increasing security assistance to Ukraine, will expedite downfall of Russia
or pull the west into the conflict
 
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Online Vovk_Z

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and massacre in Odessa
That wasn't a 'massacre'. That was a tragedy fire caused by russian terrorist-separatist forces. They thought that Odessa is 'a Russian city' because it is 100% russian speaking. So russians wanted to 'protect' it by occupation (as usual).
You want to present to us that tragic accident as a system. But not. There wasn't anything similar pre- and after that.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 12:10:09 am by Vovk_Z »
 

Offline vad

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Implement the Minsk agreement.
This agreement died on 24 February 2022. Instead:

1) Send Russian troops home
2) Prosecute war criminals and warmongers
3) Pay for the damages
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 10:33:23 pm by vad »
 
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Offline vad

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or pull the west into the conflict
Genius! Assuming you live in NATO country, are you personally going to defend Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, when Putin is done with Ukraine and gets his hands on 20 million conscripts?

Edit: would not it be better to destroy Putin’s regime now, when it is weak, using hands and lives of Ukrainian military, equipping them with necessary weapons?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 10:43:07 pm by vad »
 


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