General > General Technical Chat

"Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)

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vad:

--- Quote from: james_s on August 25, 2022, 04:34:13 pm ---It's pretty hard to tell Russia what to do, and there isn't much the rest of the world is going to be able to do to persuade them short of starting WWIII. I suspect the sanctions will have a negligible effect on Russia, all they are really doing is causing suffering in the countries imposing them.

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What makes you believe that nuclear deterrence no longer works?

Sanctions do have negligible effect, because there are no real sanctions. Russian energy exports are stronger than ever. EU’s oil embargo will only start in January 2023, and EU has no plans to cut natural gas imports any time soon.

madires:

--- Quote from: Marco on August 25, 2022, 02:55:19 pm ---
--- Quote from: madires on August 25, 2022, 11:48:12 am ---A recent study (monitoring modern heat pumps across the country) shows an average COP of 2.6 for Germany.

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How many of those are with high temp radiators? The industry is infamous for cocking it up.

--- End quote ---

No idea! The COP value is for air-water types.

themadhippy:

--- Quote ---1st January 2023 (Latest predictions) £4,650 a year (31% rise)
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Leaving someone on the highest rate disability benefits around  £155 A YEAR for everything else


--- Quote ---some very serious unsettlement is coming to the streets very soon.
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Right after ive watched the  new series of gladiators baking on ice, o but theirs a cory special on after so can we wait till that's finished

richard.cs:

--- Quote from: nctnico on August 25, 2022, 03:20:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: richard.cs on August 25, 2022, 02:15:37 pm ---The low efficiency of creating it by electrolysis is unfortunate, but not necessarily a show stopper depending on the source of the energy input. What I can't see is why we would ever use hydrogen as H2 (an inconvenient gas that's hard to liquify, low energy density, explosive in pretty much all concentrations, leaks through almost everything, embrittles metals, etc.) rather than stick it to some carbon atoms and make synthetic methane or synthetic LPG.

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If you dig a bit deeper into hydrogen you'll find that it is widely used in many industrial processes. People that make such claims seem to reason from a POV where the large scale use of hydrogen is something completely new. It simply isn't. The technology and infrastructure are there, it just needs to be scaled up from large to extra-extra-large.

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Sure, there's plenty of hydrogen used industrially, though I would be enormously surprised if industrial hydrogen use is within two orders of magnitude of methane use.  Almost none of that is made electrolytically, instead by reacting natural gas with steam. Nor does the fact that  it's widely used industrially have any bearing on whether it is a good idea to distribute it to the general public in a network of pipes not designed for it, through private pipes not designed for it, to large amounts of equipment also not designed for it.


--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 25, 2022, 02:31:20 pm ---The same pipes that now carry Natural gas around cities used to carry Town/Coal gas in the past and it is about 50% H2 and it worked without any issues.

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I am not sure I agree with "without any issues". It's generally accepted that coal gas had an increased explosion risk in domestic use due to the very wide range of gas:air ratios over which it will ignite. Coal gas was also horribly toxic due to the carbon monoxide content, and is one of those things that probably would be considered very unsafe if it were invented today (like Aspirin, cars with single-skin petrol tanks 4 inches above the road, 3rd rail electric trains, etc).

I am not that against distributing hydrogen in place of methane, I just am yet to be convinced there are all that many benefits over distributing electricity or distributing synthetic methane (which gives complete backwards compatibility). For vehicles hydrogen is a bugger to store and synthetic-LPG made with electrolytic hydrogen would make more sense. For grid-scale storage, where are we proposing to store huge amounts of hydrogen? In old gas fields or as liquid? What's the round trip efficiency? (if we make it electrolytically at 70% efficiency and then burn it in CC gas turbines at 40% we're down to 28%)

AndyBeez:

--- Quote from: james_s on August 25, 2022, 04:34:13 pm ---... I suspect the sanctions will have a negligible effect on Russia, all they are really doing is causing suffering in the countries imposing them.

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Agreed. Russia declared war on the free world, and now the government's of the free world are cashing in. Not just through increased tax revenues but, their otherwise unstable political positions are being shored up. Meanwhile the price of grain and cude oil is good news in the mid west and southern USA, which is just in time for the primaries. Then there all of those defense contracts. Or defence if you are British.

As for our friends in Deutschland, such is the price to pay for making their economy addicted to Russia's give away gas/gaz. France is laughing. Was ist das Nord Stream?  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

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