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"Gas Armageddon": Energy/electricity prices in EU/UK (and how to deal with them)
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tautech:
In todays news is Japan doing a full 180 reversing its policy of moving away from nuclear generation......yes it seems they are governed by adults and not influenced by the whims of children.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/24/japan-signals-return-to-nuclear-power-to-stabilise-energy-supply
Someone:

--- Quote from: Marco on August 25, 2022, 02:55:19 pm ---
--- Quote from: madires on August 25, 2022, 11:48:12 am ---A recent study (monitoring modern heat pumps across the country) shows an average COP of 2.6 for Germany.
--- End quote ---
How many of those are with high temp radiators? The industry is infamous for cocking it up.
--- End quote ---
Many variables to manipulate/consider if you want a particular "answer" there. You can see the wildly varying performance of whats available "new" in the market in:
"Study on Air-to-Water Heat Pumps Seasonal Performances for Heating in Greece" January 2022
That has air-water SCOP at several different supply temperatures, in some comparable climates (not just stereotypical sunny Greece). The best performers are above 3.0 and in more optimal situations >4.5. But the "average" of whats installed and in operation (even for new installs) could easily be far lower so 2.6 doesnt sound impossible or unreasonable. But that points back to people not understanding/caring about the details and bothering to find an installer who can deliver a well sized and tuned system. "bought heat pump, cashing subsidies saving planet" box ticked.

air-water is already putting in a synthetic constraint/requirement that is not essential, air-air can meet the essential human need for heat in almost all situations, still with a SCOP above 3.0.

3.0 is just a round number that happens to be close to the current relative price of the energy inputs in most countries. SCOP 2.0 can be worthwhile depending on the specific costs considered/exposed, such as replacing resistive heating where gas isn't available or more expensive. Or where the majority of the energy delivered would be from solar/wind. Marginal electricity generation is not going to be 100% produced from gas (across the seasons as the SCOP figure).
JohanH:

--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 25, 2022, 10:28:47 pm ---
There's thermal storage that's very cost effective for a few days. Some larger installations might be able to push it to a few weeks before insulation costs render it impractical.

--- End quote ---

There is a Finnish concept of storing heat in sand that keeps the heat for months. Currently the first product has been installed with 8 MWh capacity. It's cheap and seems to work.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520
tszaboo:

--- Quote from: JohanH on August 26, 2022, 06:10:12 am ---
--- Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 25, 2022, 10:28:47 pm ---
There's thermal storage that's very cost effective for a few days. Some larger installations might be able to push it to a few weeks before insulation costs render it impractical.

--- End quote ---

There is a Finnish concept of storing heat in sand that keeps the heat for months. Currently the first product has been installed with 8 MWh capacity. It's cheap and seems to work.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-61996520

--- End quote ---
Around 100 tons of sand costs 7000 EUR, it's in short supply in the world.
And I'm sure all these people living here with their ~40 sqm gardens would love to have half of it dedicated to a huge concrete silo.
As I said this before, it's a bad idea.
With P2G, the same energy can be stored in about 600 KG of LNG, or 70 times the energy in a single intermodal tank that you can transport and stack and store it anywhere, far away from the city.
JohanH:

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 26, 2022, 08:49:22 am ---
Around 100 tons of sand costs 7000 EUR, it's in short supply in the world.
And I'm sure all these people living here with their ~40 sqm gardens would love to have half of it dedicated to a huge concrete silo.
As I said this before, it's a bad idea.
With P2G, the same energy can be stored in about 600 KG of LNG, or 70 times the energy in a single intermodal tank that you can transport and stack and store it anywhere, far away from the city.

--- End quote ---

I've heard there are sand in Sahara... For this type of usage, you can use sand that doesn't qualify for construction.

There will not be a single solution that will work everywhere for now, today, so I applaud every project and idea. How the future evolves, we don't know. It's not always one solution, and not always the best solution that "wins".
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