Damn, I lost an hour and the run didn't finish...

[Rick Law]

Did you ever have the pleasure of dealing with regularly scheduled multiple long overnight batch jobs for an IT department or for a substantial IT setup during DST/EST change over?

Today's world is a technology driven world.  We have much stronger dependence on indoor lighting with much higher efficiency.  Is moving clock back and forth for daylight saving really saving anything or just waiting wasting people's energy in doing it?  If it saves, why not do it year-round.

29 out of 50 States in the USA decided to adopt year-round daylight savings time regardless of saving or not.  Now I no longer have multiple lengthy batch runs to worry about, but just a house full of clocks to deal with -- I still wish all 50 States will kill this EST/EST thing and the rest of the world would also.

What do you think?

EDIT: corrected a word, I mean "wasting" not "waiting"  (noticed it when I tried to refer back to exactly this point in a reply)

[ataradov]

I don't understand. Currently there are only two states that don't change time - Arizona and Hawaii. A lot of states want to stop this stupidity, but it looks like it is constantly stalling for no obvious to me reason. It is a no-brainer that monotonic time is better.

[jpanhalt]

It presumably served a purpose during the WWII war years.  You got off work when it was still light and didn't need headlights to drive home, and other conjured up reasons.  There was also double time (aka War Time)  in which the change was 2 hours.

Today, what might make more sense is fast time.  Turn the clocks ahead in Winter (from GMT) so 6 AM  local is really 7 AM solar time. That way kids waiting for school buses don't wait in the dark.

I am one of the majority who prefers standard time all year.  As some wise Native American reportedly said, only a white man would think removing an hour in the morning and adding it to the evening would lengthen the day.

[themadhippy]

lets keep everyone happy an just move the clock forward half an hour,then leave it alone

[rsjsouza]

Interesting that I have the same impression: it seems to be something that people hate across the board but it persists every year.

A few years ago Brazil abolished this nonsense and only the fanatic detractors of the current president threw a fit. The vast majority welcomed the change. There the nonsense was even more dramatic, as a tropical country does not have enough daylight variance throughout the year to justify such thing.

[jpanhalt]

As for my point about school children, an easier solution in our Northern states would be to start school an hour later during the Winter.  As a parent of 4 in Minnesota, it really is worrisome to drop the kids off when it is pitch dark.

[rstofer]

California voters approved permanent DST and it has gone nowhere

Because federal law does not currently allow full-time DST, Congress would have to act before states could adopt changes.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/daylight-savings-time-state-legislation.aspx

So, blame it on the Feds - 1966 Uniform Time Act.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/daylight-savings-time-state-legislation.aspx

That damn Commerce Clause lets the Feds get involved in everything!  Without doubt, the dumbest thing in the Constitution.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/commerce_clause

[jpanhalt]

That damn Commerce Clause lets the Feds get involved in everything!  Without doubt, the dumbest thing in the Constitution.

Unfortunately, yes.  I agree.  Anything, if properly phrased , comes under the commerce clause, even illegal activities.

[eugene]

I don't find changing the clocks twice per year to be very disruptive. To be honest, I appreciate the extra hour of daylight during the summer and the sun rising an hour earlier in the winter. But, if it causes trouble for some then who am I to argue.

On the other hand, I don't understand the passion that some farmers seem have for this. Can't they just get out of bed whenever they want? The livestock and crops don't care what the clock says, why do the farmers care?

[ataradov]

It also creates issues with scheduling international calls. I have a weekly work call with people from India and France. India does not change time. France changes on the month boundary, US changes on some arbitrary dates designed to sell more crap. Scheduling this around a couple weeks when some sides have changed and others did not, is a huge waste of time.

[jpanhalt]

On the other hand, I don't understand the passion that some farmers seem have for this. Can't they just get out of bed whenever they want? The livestock and crops don't care what the clock says, why do the farmers care?

Actually farmers were against DST.  Indiana used to stay on standard ("slow") time.  One of several citations on the subject:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2015/03/06/five-myths-about-daylight-saving-time/

I don't know a farmer who objects to getting up at 4AM GMT+5 (i.e., Eastern US time) regardless of the clock.  And as pointed out, crops and cows don't read the clock.  They read the Sun.  Myself?  I naturally awake between 4 and 4:30 AM local time and adjust.  That has been my routine most of my professional life.  It's not worth going to war about, but DST is just silly.

What really bugs me is that clothing stores all open at 10AM.  I hate shopping so late, yet on the rare occasions I go to department stores at 10AM, I am usually the only one there.  Why can't they open at 7 or 8 AM like real businesses?

[MK14]

What really bugs me is that clothing stores all open at 10AM.  I hate shopping so late, yet on the rare occasions I go to department stores at 10AM, I am usually the only one there.  Why can't they open at 7 or 8 AM like real businesses?

I think you have answered your own question. If the clothing stores, are relatively empty/lacking customers at such early times (10AM), then I'm not surprised, they don't want to open at even earlier times, if it would NOT be profitable for them. Since they would be paying staff and other running costs, without getting a profitable return from customers, at such early times.
Presumably, there are reasons why people tend to shop for cloths relatively late in the day, compared to other items. 

[eugene]

If we're complaining about clothing stores, why the hell do they change seasonal clothing months before the seasons themselves? If you want summer cloths you need to buy it in the spring. By late summer they're selling only cloths suitable for cold weather.

I know I'm just a grumpy old man, but I generally don't plan cloths shopping months in advance. Just like groceries and electronic components, I think about buying them when I need them.

Actually farmers were against DST.  Indiana used to stay on standard ("slow") time.

Right, and I don't understand why farmers have traditionally been so passionate about the subject. DST can be inconvenient for people that need to interact with other people. Even just going to an office job can be a problem if it means losing an hours sleep. But the farmers? What do they have to complain about? Even their hired help can just get up an hour earlier/later -- according to the clock; really they're still getting up at the same time.

[Ed.Kloonk]

It fades the curtains!

[Stray Electron]

I don't understand. Currently there are only two states that don't change time - Arizona and Hawaii. A lot of states want to stop this stupidity, but it looks like it is constantly stalling for no obvious to me reason. It is a no-brainer that monotonic time is better.

  Most states and most of the people in the US want to drop this nonsense but it was mandated by Congress back in the 1970s as an "energy saving measure" so only they can stop it.  OTOH Biden could stop it with an Executive Order if he wished but let's not even talk about that!

[ejeffrey]

As for my point about school children, an easier solution in our Northern states would be to start school an hour later during the Winter.  As a parent of 4 in Minnesota, it really is worrisome to drop the kids off when it is pitch dark.

Child psychologists have been trying for years to get schools to move start times later particularly for teenagers on the basis that it is shown to be better for both their health and their performance in school.  This meets a lot of resistance from parents who have jobs and schedules.  It's difficult to push back just schools without affecting a bunch of other things.  If you are going to change schedules seasonally shifting the clock is probably less inconvenient than a mish mash of shifting schedules from different schools, businesses and other organizations.  It's annoying enough when continents can't agree on the time to shift schedules.  It would be impractical to implement seasonal schedule changes without daylight savings time.

It's not just kids either.  Driving to work before sunrise is bad for adults too. 

For health and safety year round standard time would be the choice but there are a lot of businesses that are opposed to that because more hours of daylight in the evening means more business.

[Ed.Kloonk]

As for my point about school children, an easier solution in our Northern states would be to start school an hour later during the Winter.  As a parent of 4 in Minnesota, it really is worrisome to drop the kids off when it is pitch dark.

Child psychologists have been trying for years to get schools to move start times later particularly for teenagers on the basis that it is shown to be better for both their health and their performance in school.  This meets a lot of resistance from parents who have jobs and schedules.  It's difficult to push back just schools without affecting a bunch of other things.  If you are going to change schedules seasonally shifting the clock is probably less inconvenient than a mish mash of shifting schedules from different schools, businesses and other organizations.  It's annoying enough when continents can't agree on the time to shift schedules.  It would be impractical to implement seasonal schedule changes without daylight savings time.

It's not just kids either.  Driving to work before sunrise is bad for adults too. 

For health and safety year round standard time would be the choice but there are a lot of businesses that are opposed to that because more hours of daylight in the evening means more business.

When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.

The problem is they are ignoring the basic tenant of teaching where you teach during the day, apply homework to foster compartmentalization of the concepts. You follow up the learning by recapping the next morning and building from there.

These higher than thou drug and alcohol affected know it alls, who interrupt their own learning with late-night screen time, don't realize how much they are stuffing up the proven study system.

[TimFox]

A related problem with Daylight Saving (one s) Time in the US is that too many entities can't be bothered to state their hours of operation correctly.
That is, they say they are open 10 AM to 5 PM EST when they mean EDT.
I'm old enough to remember the chaotic situation before the Uniform Time Act of 1966, when individual States were allowed to choose whether or not to adopt DST, but imposed a uniform pair of dates for those who chose to switch.
Before that, different States and municipalities chose their own dates or participation.  To avoid train wrecks, Federal law required that all common carriers (planes, trains, buses, etc.) had to use Standard Time.
I lived in a city that bordered on another State, and the city chose to use the same dates as the neighboring State, despite the rest of my State--what could possibly go wrong?
In 2006, the State of Indiana (where the western edge, in Central Time, used CDT and the bulk of the state used EST), changed to Daylight Time, leaving only Arizona (except, of course, for the Navajo Reservation that covered multiple States, but surrounds the Hopi Reservation that stays with Arizona on MST) and Hawaii as users of year-round Standard Time.
Personally, I advocate abolition of DST.  People and businesses are free to set their hours to accord with daylight and schedules.  Japan seems to thrive without it.

[jancumps]

In essence the same as a period close, month close, new year. Things that happen at different times across the world since many years.
If we haven't managed to solve that predictable riddle in an organisation by now, what is the readiness for unpredictable events?

[eugene]

When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.

Ed, I think it's more about getting out of bed in the dark and waiting for the bus in the dark than getting to sleep in a little extra. I know that being forced to get up and get going before the sun affects my general performance throughout the day.

[Ed.Kloonk]

When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.

Ed, I think it's more about getting out of bed in the dark and waiting for the bus in the dark than getting to sleep in a little extra. I know that being forced to get up and get going before the sun affects my general performance throughout the day.

As an old teacher and also an old boss, I can tell you that it doesn't matter how much we allow the sleep-in, your people will end up rising at midday!

In my country we have an expression, "going to bed with the chooks". It means when the sun sets, the chickens go to sleep. You can't have both. You need enough sleep to make you want to rise early, if you want to.

In my own case, when I used to do stupid hours, I found that a late dinner was detrimental to my getting to sleep and thus waking up in time to happily shake hands with the vampires.

I realize that forcing everyone to dial back dinner time is bridge too far. The compromise is to eat a bit less in the evening. Then, you'll be as hungry as F and your gut will get you out of bed.

[ejeffrey]

When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.
The problem is they are ignoring the basic tenant of teaching where you teach during the day, apply homework to foster compartmentalization of the concepts. You follow up the learning by recapping the next morning and building from there.

These higher than thou drug and alcohol affected know it alls, who interrupt their own learning with late-night screen time, don't realize how much they are stuffing up the proven study system.

I think if you read your post, you will find that you are the one shit-posting something unsupported by any facts except your own gut intuition and "that is the way they did things in my day, so it must be right"

Here is an AAP survey article on the topic with a huge number of supporting references: https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/134/3/642/74175/School-Start-Times-for-Adolescents
Here is the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/shpps/pdf/shpps-508-final_101315.pdf
Here is an article on the shifting sleep cycle of adolescents: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17383934/

It is the overwhelming consensus of those who actually study this that delaying school start times until 8:30 or later is proved to improve sleep, health, and school performance.  Your "proven" method is just demonstrably worse.  None of those references ignore the effect of late night screen-time and other factors and *also* recommend against that.

But none of that was really my point.  My point was: just saying you can change to year-round "DST" and just have schools start an hour later in the winter is not feasible.  Nobody would accept that situation, it is not realistic. The only practical choices are picking a standard time and keeping it year round or implementing daylight savings time.  While I personally prefer daylight savings time and am honestly tired of being told by shit posters on the internet that I don't exist or I don't "really" prefer it, I understand a large chunk of the population would prefer a single time all year round.  However, reaching an agreement on which time should be standard is substantially harder.

[Ed.Kloonk]

When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.
The problem is they are ignoring the basic tenant of teaching where you teach during the day, apply homework to foster compartmentalization of the concepts. You follow up the learning by recapping the next morning and building from there.

These higher than thou drug and alcohol affected know it alls, who interrupt their own learning with late-night screen time, don't realize how much they are stuffing up the proven study system.

I think if you read your post, you will find that you are the one shit-posting something unsupported by any facts except your own gut intuition and "that is the way they did things in my day, so it must be right"

Here is an AAP survey article on the topic with a huge number of supporting references: https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/134/3/642/74175/School-Start-Times-for-Adolescents
Here is the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/shpps/pdf/shpps-508-final_101315.pdf
Here is an article on the shifting sleep cycle of adolescents: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17383934/

It is the overwhelming consensus of those who actually study this that delaying school start times until 8:30 or later is proved to improve sleep, health, and school performance.  Your "proven" method is just demonstrably worse.  None of those references ignore the effect of late night screen-time and other factors and *also* recommend against that.

But none of that was really my point.  My point was: just saying you can change to year-round "DST" and just have schools start an hour later in the winter is not feasible.  Nobody would accept that situation, it is not realistic. The only practical choices are picking a standard time and keeping it year round or implementing daylight savings time.  While I personally prefer daylight savings time and am honestly tired of being told by shit posters on the internet that I don't exist or I don't "really" prefer it, I understand a large chunk of the population would prefer a single time all year round.  However, reaching an agreement on which time should be standard is substantially harder.

But the historical aptitude tests don't match the trendy studies, do they?

I read that someone has trouble getting out of bed when it's still dark. It's a problem that I solved 'back in the day'. My solution still applies today. If you think that's a shit post, fine. I can't motivate you to take any notice of me any more than I can motivate anyone to get out of bed and get the worm and all that.

[ejeffrey]

But the historical aptitude tests don't match the trendy studies, do they?

If you have any _evidence_ whatsoever for changing school times having a neutral or negative effect on student performance, go ahead and post it, otherwise this is just a bad faith insinuation of evidence that does not exist.  Also, saying that aggregate standardized tests over time for all factors are a better metric of the success of one suggested change that hasn't been widely adopted is better than a study that looks specifically at the difference between starting times is a bit... nonsensical, and would score very poorly on an analytical reading standardized test.

I read that someone has trouble getting out of bed when it's still dark. It's a problem that I solved 'back in the day'. My solution still applies today. If you think that's a shit post, fine. I can't motivate you to take any notice of me any more than I can motivate anyone to get out of bed and get the worm and all that.

No, it is shit-posting to claim that something that worked for you is widely applicable to everyone despite scientific evidence to the contrary.  You are basically arguing that the singular of anecdote is data.  I'm glad you found a system that worked for you.  That does not negate the clear evidence of what works best at a societal level.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I love all the talk about a child's second decade, sleep patterns, rhythms etc. In those articles, can we point to any effect of caffeine/energy drinks?

It always comes back to food, namely shitty food. And the effect gets worse as you get older.