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Damn, I lost an hour and the run didn't finish...
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Ed.Kloonk:

--- Quote from: eugene on March 14, 2022, 04:23:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 04:05:40 pm ---When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.

--- End quote ---

Ed, I think it's more about getting out of bed in the dark and waiting for the bus in the dark than getting to sleep in a little extra. I know that being forced to get up and get going before the sun affects my general performance throughout the day.

--- End quote ---

As an old teacher and also an old boss, I can tell you that it doesn't matter how much we allow the sleep-in, your people will end up rising at midday!

In my country we have an expression, "going to bed with the chooks". It means when the sun sets, the chickens go to sleep. You can't have both. You need enough sleep to make you want to rise early, if you want to.

In my own case, when I used to do stupid hours, I found that a late dinner was detrimental to my getting to sleep and thus waking up in time to happily shake hands with the vampires.

I realize that forcing everyone to dial back dinner time is bridge too far. The compromise is to eat a bit less in the evening. Then, you'll be as hungry as F and your gut will get you out of bed.
ejeffrey:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 04:05:40 pm ---When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.
The problem is they are ignoring the basic tenant of teaching where you teach during the day, apply homework to foster compartmentalization of the concepts. You follow up the learning by recapping the next morning and building from there.

These higher than thou drug and alcohol affected know it alls, who interrupt their own learning with late-night screen time, don't realize how much they are stuffing up the proven study system.

--- End quote ---

I think if you read your post, you will find that you are the one shit-posting something unsupported by any facts except your own gut intuition and "that is the way they did things in my day, so it must be right"

Here is an AAP survey article on the topic with a huge number of supporting references: https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/134/3/642/74175/School-Start-Times-for-Adolescents
Here is the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/shpps/pdf/shpps-508-final_101315.pdf
Here is an article on the shifting sleep cycle of adolescents: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17383934/

It is the overwhelming consensus of those who actually study this that delaying school start times until 8:30 or later is proved to improve sleep, health, and school performance.  Your "proven" method is just demonstrably worse.  None of those references ignore the effect of late night screen-time and other factors and *also* recommend against that.

But none of that was really my point.  My point was: just saying you can change to year-round "DST" and just have schools start an hour later in the winter is not feasible.  Nobody would accept that situation, it is not realistic. The only practical choices are picking a standard time and keeping it year round or implementing daylight savings time.  While I personally prefer daylight savings time and am honestly tired of being told by shit posters on the internet that I don't exist or I don't "really" prefer it, I understand a large chunk of the population would prefer a single time all year round.  However, reaching an agreement on which time should be standard is substantially harder.
Ed.Kloonk:

--- Quote from: ejeffrey on March 14, 2022, 05:00:19 pm ---
--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 04:05:40 pm ---When you drill down into who exactly is asking for this, you realize that's the folk who like to stay up late, shit-post and wake up late. Of course they want to apply this to adolescents for convenience.
The problem is they are ignoring the basic tenant of teaching where you teach during the day, apply homework to foster compartmentalization of the concepts. You follow up the learning by recapping the next morning and building from there.

These higher than thou drug and alcohol affected know it alls, who interrupt their own learning with late-night screen time, don't realize how much they are stuffing up the proven study system.

--- End quote ---

I think if you read your post, you will find that you are the one shit-posting something unsupported by any facts except your own gut intuition and "that is the way they did things in my day, so it must be right"

Here is an AAP survey article on the topic with a huge number of supporting references: https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/134/3/642/74175/School-Start-Times-for-Adolescents
Here is the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/shpps/pdf/shpps-508-final_101315.pdf
Here is an article on the shifting sleep cycle of adolescents: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17383934/

It is the overwhelming consensus of those who actually study this that delaying school start times until 8:30 or later is proved to improve sleep, health, and school performance.  Your "proven" method is just demonstrably worse.  None of those references ignore the effect of late night screen-time and other factors and *also* recommend against that.

But none of that was really my point.  My point was: just saying you can change to year-round "DST" and just have schools start an hour later in the winter is not feasible.  Nobody would accept that situation, it is not realistic. The only practical choices are picking a standard time and keeping it year round or implementing daylight savings time.  While I personally prefer daylight savings time and am honestly tired of being told by shit posters on the internet that I don't exist or I don't "really" prefer it, I understand a large chunk of the population would prefer a single time all year round.  However, reaching an agreement on which time should be standard is substantially harder.

--- End quote ---

But the historical aptitude tests don't match the trendy studies, do they?

I read that someone has trouble getting out of bed when it's still dark. It's a problem that I solved 'back in the day'. My solution still applies today. If you think that's a shit post, fine. I can't motivate you to take any notice of me any more than I can motivate anyone to get out of bed and get the worm and all that.
ejeffrey:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on March 14, 2022, 05:24:18 pm ---But the historical aptitude tests don't match the trendy studies, do they?

--- End quote ---

If you have any _evidence_ whatsoever for changing school times having a neutral or negative effect on student performance, go ahead and post it, otherwise this is just a bad faith insinuation of evidence that does not exist.  Also, saying that aggregate standardized tests over time for all factors are a better metric of the success of one suggested change that hasn't been widely adopted is better than a study that looks specifically at the difference between starting times is a bit... nonsensical, and would score very poorly on an analytical reading standardized test.


--- Quote ---I read that someone has trouble getting out of bed when it's still dark. It's a problem that I solved 'back in the day'. My solution still applies today. If you think that's a shit post, fine. I can't motivate you to take any notice of me any more than I can motivate anyone to get out of bed and get the worm and all that.

--- End quote ---

No, it is shit-posting to claim that something that worked for you is widely applicable to everyone despite scientific evidence to the contrary.  You are basically arguing that the singular of anecdote is data.  I'm glad you found a system that worked for you.  That does not negate the clear evidence of what works best at a societal level.
Ed.Kloonk:
I love all the talk about a child's second decade, sleep patterns, rhythms etc. In those articles, can we point to any effect of caffeine/energy drinks?

It always comes back to food, namely shitty food. And the effect gets worse as you get older.
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