Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 92485 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1000 on: June 30, 2019, 01:24:43 am »
In other words, if in some STEM-fields historically there was a high percentage of women (medicine, biology?) that doesn't mean that there is equally high percentage of women in other fields, such as electronics, computer science or embedded.
Since there are STEM-fields where there is a significant percentage of women and others where such a percentage is low, it's possible that the cause of different percentages is that certain fields are not attractive and it's not because of the field itself, but rather because of social constructs surrounding that field.

Sure, but evidence shows that natural gender interest plays a large role in fields like electronics that are very much "things" oriented. Perhaps this has a much larger effect than any societal factors.
This evidence based explanation make a lot of sense, and may be the reason you'll never see 50/50 in fields like electronics, but it has gotten to that in fields like biological sciences that are not as "things" oriented.

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As I said before, any number is acceptable to me and my interest in this matter is not based on numbers of that kind. It's simply based on my own impressions and experiences of working in the computer science. That is, I think that it's pretty obvious that women engineers have it tough there, not because of the field itself, but rather because of the certain hostility towards them entering and staying active. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone, but generally I would say that what so called "activists" say actually pretty much is correct.

I (and many others on here) have not experienced that hostility in the industry.

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If that hostility goes away, I don't really care if there's only 10% of women in the field or less.

There will always be "hostility" in countless forms, it's human nature, you can't eradicate it.
As I told some female engineering students who came to visit once, you can be "discriminated" against or find hostility or push-back in countless ways, gender is just one potential thing amongst dozens of other traits.
IME in the electronics industry you'll find push-back against and find hostility in many areas before gender will be taken into account.
I don't recall once in my career ever hearing or encountering dismissal of an engineer or applicant because of their gender. If anything females can have advantages in the industry.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1001 on: June 30, 2019, 01:56:44 am »
I kind of suspect that many of the people who feel hostility are seeing a reflection of their own personality. Some people are just really unpleasant to be around, I find most people with the strong stereotypical SJW personality to be nearly intolerable, regardless of gender. If you march into some place and act hostile toward those who are already there then it should not be surprising if you sense hostility in return.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1002 on: June 30, 2019, 06:29:10 am »
...I find most people with the strong stereotypical SJW personality to be nearly intolerable, regardless of gender...

Do you actually know someone with a "stereotypical SJW" personality?   I don't think there is such a thing.
Some people hold very strong beliefs, and if you challenge them they sometimes get hostile (e.g. around religion).  Otherwise, I usually find that everyone is usually agreeable as long as you don't bring up the topic about which they're sensitive. 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1003 on: June 30, 2019, 06:43:16 am »
I kind of suspect that many of the people who feel hostility are seeing a reflection of their own personality. Some people are just really unpleasant to be around, I find most people with the strong stereotypical SJW personality to be nearly intolerable, regardless of gender. If you march into some place and act hostile toward those who are already there then it should not be surprising if you sense hostility in return.

Indeed.
And some personality types don't get very far in organisations. Is that discrimination against shy people? or people (like me) without much tact? They usually aren't going to make it into a CEO position, these people have been oppressed and programmed by society to know their role and place for far too long! Should we have programs to improve the ratio of tactless CEO's in companies? How about redhead CEO's? ;D
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:44:49 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1004 on: June 30, 2019, 06:45:56 am »
In other words, if in some STEM-fields historically there was a high percentage of women (medicine, biology?) that doesn't mean that there is equally high percentage of women in other fields, such as electronics, computer science or embedded.
Since there are STEM-fields where there is a significant percentage of women and others where such a percentage is low, it's possible that the cause of different percentages is that certain fields are not attractive and it's not because of the field itself, but rather because of social constructs surrounding that field.

Sure, but evidence shows that natural gender interest plays a large role in fields like electronics that are very much "things" oriented. Perhaps this has a much larger effect than any societal factors.
This evidence based explanation make a lot of sense, and may be the reason you'll never see 50/50 in fields like electronics, but it has gotten to that in fields like biological sciences that are not as "things" oriented.

There is no evidence which shows that natural gender interest plays a large role in fields like electronics that are very much "things" oriented.
There are only a few "interests" such as interest toward members of the opposite sex, that's attributable to "natural gender interest," and its explicable by biology and evolution. 

Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback. 

 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1005 on: June 30, 2019, 06:51:04 am »
I kind of suspect that many of the people who feel hostility are seeing a reflection of their own personality. Some people are just really unpleasant to be around, I find most people with the strong stereotypical SJW personality to be nearly intolerable, regardless of gender. If you march into some place and act hostile toward those who are already there then it should not be surprising if you sense hostility in return.

Indeed.
And some personality types don't get very far in organisations. Is that discrimination against shy people? or people (like me) without much tact? They usually aren't going to make it into a CEO position, these people have been oppressed and programmed by society to know their role and place for far too long! Should we have programs to improve the ratio of tactless CEO's in companies? How about redhead CEO's? ;D

There's no problem for tactless people becoming CEOs, as long as they hold leverage and can navigate the politics. 
The most tactless people can even become POTUS... imaging that...  :-DD
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1006 on: June 30, 2019, 08:10:38 am »
Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.

Explain the Scandinavian result.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/



This, and other studies I I"m lead to believe have confirmed it, is massive evidence that any social constructionist advocate must answer.
It's it's not just the absolute numbers, I'm lead to believe that the number actually decreased over time when gender equally increased. This is a stunning result.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 09:41:39 am by EEVblog »
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1007 on: June 30, 2019, 08:27:10 am »
I don't think that "forcing" someone to do something is a good idea. What I think is right approach is to try to make STEM-fields as attractive as possible to the maximum number of people possible. Like if you have certain inclinations for STEM, then come study it at our university and such. This is something really common, actually.
It is not about the study. The study is only teaching you certain information you might need in your job.
IMO the reason a majority of females do not choose electronics as much for study is because they don't want to work in that field. Why?  :-//
There are exceptions, I don't want to generalize but it is so obvious that it is hard not to do so.
What I see with youngsters( 10-16) is that many boys like to tinker with wood with bikes with electronics. They have a natural interest to find out how things work and are busy with that. Other boys focus on sports.
With the girls they are also interested but then in relationships, emotionas, drama, they are also experimenting but not with things but with eachother and others.
There are exceptions but this will probably never be 50/50, just as that male nurses will never be 50/50 or male teachers in childrens classes (at the moment in our country it is something like 90/10).

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So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that.
That has been done so many times with businesses open days for women, government sponsored commercials etc etc.
Result: almost zero.

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In many countries and places there is still a stereotype that women don't do well in engineering or other STEM-fields, so they may even have certain pressure to not pursue that career. This can simply be countered by events and actions like this. As you see, no need to force anybody, just present an alternative point of view to what is currently established in that particular society.
Which countries ? Which continents?
You do know there is a field in electronics where women are dominant right?
Electronic manufacturing, because they are more precise and accurate in assembling small wires, devices etc. I have zero problems with more women in the STEM fields but it has to be on merit on actual inventions/patents and business contributions, not because they are female and followed the academic programms for ten years and there are no other females, if you get my point.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1008 on: June 30, 2019, 09:35:41 am »
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So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that.
That has been done so many times with businesses open days for women, government sponsored commercials etc etc.
Result: almost zero.

More than that, they even get access to startup grant money and accelerator programs with a 50% advantage, no men allowed!
https://www.shestarts.com/
Actually, it's more than ruling out 50% of the competition when you take into account the, let's say, 90/10 male/female dong startups. So girls have access to this stuff without competing against say 90% of potential competition. Pretty sweet deal!
 

Offline apis

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1009 on: June 30, 2019, 11:29:54 am »
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/
...
This is a stunning result.
It is a very interesting result, just keep in mind that correlation doesn't mean causation.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1010 on: June 30, 2019, 01:53:38 pm »
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/
...
This is a stunning result.
It is a very interesting result, just keep in mind that correlation doesn't mean causation.

It's been done by professional researchers, I'm sure they are aware of that.
You can read the paper here, plenty of p values to keep everyone amused.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/db85/143e577e48f8abe57af7c2579edd40b4fa23.pdf

And it agrees with existing research.
And they mention several times that it's paradoxical and "the opposite of what some scholars might expect intuitively". Obviously they would be referring to the widely held doctrine that if you have true equal gender opportunity then you will get closer to a 50/50 outcome. But it's the opposite.

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Explanations
We propose that when boys are relatively better in science and mathematics while girls are relatively better
at reading than other academic areas, there is the
potential for substantive sex differences to emerge in
STEM-related educational pathways. The differences are
expected on the basis of expectancy-value theory and
are consistent with prior research (Eccles, 1983; Wang
& Degol, 2013). The differences emerge from a seemingly rational choice to pursue academic paths that are
a personal strength, which also seems to be common
academic advice given to students, at least in the United
Kingdom (e.g., Gardner, 2016; Universities and Colleges
Admissions Service, 2015).
The greater realization of these potential sex differences in gender-equal nations is the opposite of what
some scholars might expect intuitively, but it is consistent with findings for some other cognitive and social
sex differences (e.g., Lippa, Collaer, & Peters, 2010;
Pinker, 2008; Schmitt, 2015). One possibility is that the
liberal mores in these cultures, combined with smaller
financial costs of foregoing a STEM path (see below),
amplify the influence of intraindividual academic
strengths. The result would be the differentiation of the
academic foci of girls and boys during secondary education and later in college, and across time, increasing
sex differences in science as an academic strength and
in graduation with STEM degrees.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 02:02:02 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1011 on: June 30, 2019, 05:11:40 pm »
There are now 52% women and 48% men in STEM courses in the UK. The figures in other developed countries aren't so different.
Well, I would definitely challenge this statement. First of all, the figures are different. Here is an example showing that there can be significant differences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_STEM_fields#/media/File:Percentage_of_women_graduates_in_ICT_tertiary_education_programmes_(EU,_2016).svg

Second, the actual percentages depend on the field. From the same Wikipedia article:

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In the European Union only 16.7% on average of ICT (Information and communication technology) specialists are women. Only in Romania and Bulgaria do women hold more that 25 percent of these roles. The gender distribution is more balanced, particularly in new member states when taking into account ICT technicians (middle and low-ranking positions).[6]

In 2012 the percentage of women PhD graduates was 47.3% of the total, 51% of the social sciences, business and law, 42% of the science, mathematics and computing, and just the 28% of PhD graduates in engineering, manufacturing and construction. In the computing subfield only 21% of PhD graduates were women. In 2013 in the EU as an average men scientists and engineers made up 4.1% of total labour force, while women made up only 2.8%. In more than half of the countries women make up less than 45% of scientists and engineers. The situation has improved, as between 2008 and 2011 the number of women amongst employed scientists and engineers grew by an average of 11.1% per year, while the number of men grew only by 3.3% over the same period.[29]

In other words, if in some STEM-fields historically there was a high percentage of women (medicine, biology?) that doesn't mean that there is equally high percentage of women in other fields, such as electronics, computer science or embedded.

Since there are STEM-fields where there is a significant percentage of women and others where such a percentage is low, it's possible that the cause of different percentages is that certain fields are not attractive and it's not because of the field itself, but rather because of social constructs surrounding that field.
The very page you have quoted from supports what I said about it being broader than the UK - e.g. US STEM graduates between 25 and 35 in 2014 - 19.4% men, and 21.2% women. Once you start splitting out individual STEM topics you are going to get skewed results. The figure you showed for ICT is skewed by about the same amount that you'll find numbers skewed in the opposite direction for many life science topics. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that a similar number of men and women are interested in science, when social pressures to conform to stereotypes are removed. If a large number of the STEM oriented women go for life science degrees, there aren't many left over to study engineering. Similarly, if a large number of STEM oriented men go for engineering degrees, there aren't many left over to study life sciences. These are people's free choices, and they seem to be working quite well. Remember that the number of women graduating in STEM subjects in most countries was extremely low until the 1960s. For things to have evened up in a generation seems quite remarkable to me.
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So, if you don't demand a 50/50 split, just what is acceptable to you?
As I said before, any number is acceptable to me and my interest in this matter is not based on numbers of that kind. It's simply based on my own impressions and experiences of working in the computer science. That is, I think that it's pretty obvious that women engineers have it tough there, not because of the field itself, but rather because of the certain hostility towards them entering and staying active. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone, but generally I would say that what so called "activists" say actually pretty much is correct.

If that hostility goes away, I don't really care if there's only 10% of women in the field or less.
My experience in engineering is that there is still some hostility to women in engineering, but it mostly comes from women who are not in engineering, and engineers have little power to do much about that. We might chastise the bad actors, but it seems to have little effect. In the 1970s there used to be bias against women from male engineers, but, like heavy smoking and drinking among engineers, its largely a thing of the past. What kind of horrible places have you worked where women are still made uncomfortable by male engineers - not the women in HR, marketing and other support jobs, but actual male engineers? Most capable people surrounded by low capability people receive enormous pressure to fail. Women engineers might feel they are alone in this, but they are wrong. Capable men among less capable people come under just as much pressure to fail. That's the screwed up nature of human society. However unpleasant other women can be to a woman engineer, its generally only the ones in HR who can seriously hurt a female engineer's prospects.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1012 on: June 30, 2019, 05:28:44 pm »

Do you actually know someone with a "stereotypical SJW" personality?   I don't think there is such a thing.
Some people hold very strong beliefs, and if you challenge them they sometimes get hostile (e.g. around religion).  Otherwise, I usually find that everyone is usually agreeable as long as you don't bring up the topic about which they're sensitive.

Yes, in fact I do. Perhaps there is a better term for it but I know several people who constantly blame various forms of prejudice for their own failings, it's always somebody else's fault, this group and that group are marginalized and everyone is out to get them, if you disagree with them at all you're just racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic/mansplaining, etc. They rant about cultural appropriation, quote inflated statistics about the gender wage gap which conveniently ignore every factor except gender, etc. When you can't even have a conversation with someone without it turning into a one sided rant which you are not allowed to have an opinion on because you are the wrong gender/race/group pretty soon you start avoiding engaging with that person altogether. There are loads of them in this area. 
 
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Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1013 on: June 30, 2019, 05:40:02 pm »
There is no evidence which shows that natural gender interest plays a large role in fields like electronics that are very much "things" oriented.
There are only a few "interests" such as interest toward members of the opposite sex, that's attributable to "natural gender interest," and its explicable by biology and evolution. 

Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.


It would be nice if that were the case, I'd love to see more women genuinely interested in engineering, hard for some to believe I know, but most men do in fact enjoy interacting with women. Of all the engineers and similar types I know, only two of them have wives with engineering backgrounds and one of those left the industry years ago to teach because while she's brilliant and enjoys the topic of engineering, she found she doesn't actually like *doing* engineering.

Whatever the case it's certainly not the fault of the industry that there are not more women involved. I've mentioned this before but as far back as early grade school I never knew any girls at all who had any interest in computers or engineering while I was obsessed with it from the time I was a toddler. No encouragement required, my dad certainly didn't encourage me to disassemble his expensive electronic gadgets! If this is due to social constructs, the changes need to happen at home at a very young age because by the time they are old enough to contemplate a career it is much too late.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 05:41:38 pm by james_s »
 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1014 on: June 30, 2019, 10:57:57 pm »
I don't think that "forcing" someone to do something is a good idea. What I think is right approach is to try to make STEM-fields as attractive as possible to the maximum number of people possible. Like if you have certain inclinations for STEM, then come study it at our university and such. This is something really common, actually.
Yeah, but that's what has been done for like a century and effects are for everyone to see.

So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that.
Then go and do it and do it for your own money, I won't pay a penny of tax for it and won't work for a company which funds it. I will stand by and wait for your results :popcorn:

Also, don't burry your head in sand, consider doing something to stop the whackjobs advocating gender quotas and doing "we only hire women years" so you aren't lumped together with them by accident. Somehow whenever such things happen, all those "Real Liberal just supporting freedom of choice" are nowhere to be seen.
Real Liberals™ need to develop a Real Liberal Feminism-Skeptical Movement uniting all those opposed to bs like gender quotas and spending other people's money, not only theoretically in Internet forum discussions but IRL too, and yet not wanting to become jihadists and alt-righters, which seems the only practical form of resistance today.

In many countries and places there is still a stereotype that women don't do well in engineering or other STEM-fields
And what if it's true and you are doing young, uninformed women a disservice by encouraging them into fields they are no fit for?
Show me irrefutable evidence that you are right, just like you demand evidence for justification of the status quo that remained true for untold millennia.

I don't see anyone advocating 50/50 kindergarden teachers, firefighters,  oil-drill workers, refuse collection and disposal, or butchers for that matter.
Perhaps because those fields have nothing to do with STEM and the reasons for different percentages are completely different.
Oh come on, be honest. If there is a single reason there aren't more female butchers, it's because of socially constructed patriarchal gender stereotypes. There is literally nothing else keeping women out of that business.
I for one welcome our women butcher overlords :-DD
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1015 on: June 30, 2019, 11:51:46 pm »
Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.

Explain the Scandinavian result.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/



This, and other studies I I"m lead to believe have confirmed it, is massive evidence that any social constructionist advocate must answer.
It's it's not just the absolute numbers, I'm lead to believe that the number actually decreased over time when gender equally increased. This is a stunning result.

You've taken that study way out of context.
Where did they get this "Gender Equality" index?
The report's Gender Gap Index ranks countries according to calculated gender gap between women and men in four key areas: health, education, economy and politics to gauge the state of gender equality in a country.


This study completely ignores cultural and social norms, pressures and stereotypes experienced by women in each of those cultures. 

What they concluded is that:
"It’s not that gender equality discourages girls from pursuing science. It’s that it allows them not to if they’re not interested."

No one is arguing that there is less interest in engineering/IT by women than men.  That's a given.
These interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.

"Genger Equality" advocates are not arguiing that women don't have a choice.  They know women have free choice.  What they hope to achieve is a change in culture and stereotypes to eliminate the cultural and social barriers to women entering Engineering/IT.  And that starts by reaching out to women, and gaining support from men to make Engineering/IT more palatable to women. 

 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1016 on: June 30, 2019, 11:58:19 pm »
Quote
So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that.
That has been done so many times with businesses open days for women, government sponsored commercials etc etc.
Result: almost zero.

More than that, they even get access to startup grant money and accelerator programs with a 50% advantage, no men allowed!
https://www.shestarts.com/
Actually, it's more than ruling out 50% of the competition when you take into account the, let's say, 90/10 male/female dong startups. So girls have access to this stuff without competing against say 90% of potential competition. Pretty sweet deal!

That's not grant money.  Its private venture trying to reach out to a talent pool from a niche demography to make money on them. 



 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1017 on: July 01, 2019, 08:02:25 am »
These interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.
You keep on repeating this without evidence.
It probably is one parameter but I am sure not the only one.
Biological and genetically differences combined with the unique fact that women can have and a lot of them want to have babies (wat more than man do) probably also affects their study and workchoice.
Than there is this autism, a psychological deviation that mostly occur with men that are highly into engineering, math and other sciences that is less in women. There are so many parameters that human psychology IMO can not even be called a science and then people focus on one or two parameters and that would be it?  :-//
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:04:02 am by Kjelt »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1018 on: July 01, 2019, 08:27:00 am »
These interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.
You keep on repeating this without evidence.
But its in the literature.... where it was originally asserted without evidence, but it can take quite a bit of tracing to establish that.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1019 on: July 01, 2019, 08:39:17 am »
But its in the literature.... where it was originally asserted without evidence, but it can take quite a bit of tracing to establish that.
Yes as one of the many parameters.
And culture is also women themselves.
When my wife got her baby she was "pressured" by female colleagues:
- "why don't you go work less and enjoy being a mom"
- "you can't be a good mom and work 32 hours"

Those colleagues often stopped after their pregnancy or work 16 hours
My wife did not cave and kept working 32 hours, the rules in the hospital changed that you can only be a senior nurse when you work more than 28 hours a week and from the team of 18 nurses there are two seniors left.
So society is for a big part women themselves who have a pink picture of being a mom and peerpressure themselves of what a good mom is.
Then they say their man earn more so he should go work more hours and they stay home.
Rediculous, they make themselves fully dependent on their spouse, they should stay working and have their own means of income so if the relation falls apart or the man dies she can keep on earning.

Now back to society and study choices , IMO the same thing, women dictate themselves for a large part which roles they see fit, often education and taking care of someone being it patients as a nurse or a manager as secretary etc. So yes culture is a part I agree but to change that you don't have to discriminate men or make some job more femalefriendly. You can also accept there are differences, many that are created by women themselves and there are enough examples of men doing the same thing to eachother as well , many jobs if you do those as a man other man directly assume you are gay since "a real man does not do that job" so yeah how are you suppose to change all that with some government programm? Mission impossible 10.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:45:52 am by Kjelt »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1020 on: July 01, 2019, 08:51:06 am »
But its in the literature.... where it was originally asserted without evidence, but it can take quite a bit of tracing to establish that.
Yes as one of the many parameters.
And culture is also women themselves.
When my wife got her baby she was "pressured" by female colleagues:
- "why don't you go work less and enjoy being a mom"
- "you can't be a good mom and work 32 hours"

Those colleagues often stopped after their pregnancy or work 16 hours
My wife did not cave and kept working 32 hours, the rules in the hospital changed that you can only be a senior nurse when you work more than 28 hours a week and from the team of 18 nurses there are two seniors left.
So society is for a big part women themselves who have a pink picture of being a mom and peerpressure themselves of what a good mom is.
Then they say their man earn more so he should go work more hours and they stay home.
Rediculous, they make themselves fully dependent on their spouse, they should stay working and have their own means of income so if the relation falls apart or the man dies she can keep on earning.

Now back to society and study choices , IMO the same thing, women dictate themselves for a large part which roles they see fit, often education and taking care of someone being it patients as a nurse or a manager as secretary etc. So yes culture is a part I agree but to change that you don't have to discriminate men or make some job more femalefriendly. You can also accept there are differences, many that are created by women themselves and there are enough examples of men doing the same thing to eachother as well , many jobs if you do those as a man other man directly assume you are gay since "a real man does not do that job" so yeah how are you suppose to change all that with some government programm? Mission impossible 10.
I read that there is a shortage of doctors in Canada, because of the shift from mostly male doctors to a high proportion of female doctors. They control the number of new doctors being licenced each year, on an X doctors per million population basis. They haven't adjusted X for the reality that most male doctors work to retirement, but a large number of female doctors drop out of the workforce to raise a family.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1021 on: July 01, 2019, 09:21:06 pm »

Do you actually know someone with a "stereotypical SJW" personality?   I don't think there is such a thing.
Some people hold very strong beliefs, and if you challenge them they sometimes get hostile (e.g. around religion).  Otherwise, I usually find that everyone is usually agreeable as long as you don't bring up the topic about which they're sensitive.

Yes, in fact I do. Perhaps there is a better term for it but I know several people who constantly blame various forms of prejudice for their own failings, it's always somebody else's fault, this group and that group are marginalized and everyone is out to get them, if you disagree with them at all you're just racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic/mansplaining, etc. They rant about cultural appropriation, quote inflated statistics about the gender wage gap which conveniently ignore every factor except gender, etc. When you can't even have a conversation with someone without it turning into a one sided rant which you are not allowed to have an opinion on because you are the wrong gender/race/group pretty soon you start avoiding engaging with that person altogether. There are loads of them in this area.

Sounds like whoever this person is, is stuck in the blame game. 
https://medium.com/personal-growth/how-to-stop-playing-the-blame-game-on-and-on-20967f6dbb69
 

Offline e0ne199

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1022 on: July 01, 2019, 11:09:14 pm »
because a good female engineer is not a female after all  ;D
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1023 on: July 02, 2019, 01:52:36 am »
...but to change that you don't have to discriminate men or make some job more femalefriendly...

Most if not all advocates for more women in engineering/IT do not condone discrimination against men.
But I disagree that one need not make certain male-dominated job environments more female friendly. 

There is no evidence which shows that natural gender interest plays a large role in fields like electronics that are very much "things" oriented.
There are only a few "interests" such as interest toward members of the opposite sex, that's attributable to "natural gender interest," and its explicable by biology and evolution. 

Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.
...Whatever the case it's certainly not the fault of the industry that there are not more women involved...

Yes its not industry's fault... there's no one to blame... male-dominated occupations like construction just developed its own common accepted culture that is uncomfortable for women to enter.  I think we should all recognize this and make it more accomodating to women, if not just out of courtesy, perhaps for the good of industry and society, especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.

...the changes need to happen at home at a very young age because by the time they are old enough to contemplate a career it is much too late.

I think its never too late to change some of our thinking and behaviours.

How society "dictates" gender behavior and choices
http://websterampersand.com/man-up-or-act-like-a-lady-how-society-dictates-gender/

The experience of women in male-dominated occupations: A constructivist grounded theory inquiry
https://sajip.co.za/index.php/sajip/article/view/1099/1324

Gender and the Career Choice Process: The Role of Biased Self‐Assessments
https://sociology.stanford.edu/sites/g/files/sbiybj9501/f/publications/gender_and_the_career_choice_process-_the_role_of_biased_self-assessments.pdf
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1024 on: July 02, 2019, 02:44:59 am »

...especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.



I see this bandied around quite a bit, and as a bit of a grey beard I must say I've seen it bandied about quite a bit for at least the last thirty odd years or so. Funny thing, at least in Australia,  I've never seen this supposed shortage. Maybe it just happens in other countries; yeah, that'll be it.....
 


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