Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 95576 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1025 on: July 02, 2019, 02:59:21 am »
Yes its not industry's fault... there's no one to blame... male-dominated occupations like construction just developed its own common accepted culture that is uncomfortable for women to enter.  I think we should all recognize this and make it more accomodating to women, if not just out of courtesy, perhaps for the good of industry and society, especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.

You don't think perhaps that it's because construction jobs are typically hard labor that requires physical strength? It is an absolutely undeniable biological fact that human males on average are physically bigger and stronger than females. And culture? Tell you want, ever spent time around any longshoremen? Their culture is uncomfortable for quite a few males too, jobs that heavily favor brawn over brains typically don't attract the classy eloquent types and that's fine, I made the personal choice not to go into that line of work. Few people really seem all that worried about a lack of females in the trades though, likely because it's often dangerous work that is not particularly glamorous. The pay can be fairly good, but it also takes a large toll on one's body, I've known a lot of plumbers, carpenters and electricians with bad knees, bad backs and sun damaged skin. 
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1026 on: July 02, 2019, 05:03:20 am »
Yes its not industry's fault... there's no one to blame... male-dominated occupations like construction just developed its own common accepted culture that is uncomfortable for women to enter.  I think we should all recognize this and make it more accomodating to women, if not just out of courtesy, perhaps for the good of industry and society, especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.

You don't think perhaps that it's because construction jobs are typically hard labor that requires physical strength? It is an absolutely undeniable biological fact that human males on average are physically bigger and stronger than females. And culture? Tell you want, ever spent time around any longshoremen? Their culture is uncomfortable for quite a few males too, jobs that heavily favor brawn over brains typically don't attract the classy eloquent types and that's fine, I made the personal choice not to go into that line of work. Few people really seem all that worried about a lack of females in the trades though, likely because it's often dangerous work that is not particularly glamorous. The pay can be fairly good, but it also takes a large toll on one's body, I've known a lot of plumbers, carpenters and electricians with bad knees, bad backs and sun damaged skin.

Of course, physical differences between men and women would make women less qualified for certain jobs, and even some men wouldn't quality.  I give that only as a  reference to an industry that has an obviously very male-dominant culture, some of to which engineering is not immune. 

In the entire construction industry, there are many jobs where women with talent could easily fill, but are not attractive to women because of the stereotypes and culture. 
https://blog.plangrid.com/2018/03/level-the-jobsite-why-the-world-needs-more-women-in-construction-infographic/

Oh BTW, regulations like OSHA have made construction jobs much safer, requiring controlled physical labor and less "brute force" that could injure a normally healthy person.
https://www.osha.gov/doc/topics/women/index.html
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 05:29:53 am by windsmurf »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1027 on: July 02, 2019, 05:21:06 am »

...especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.



I see this bandied around quite a bit, and as a bit of a grey beard I must say I've seen it bandied about quite a bit for at least the last thirty odd years or so. Funny thing, at least in Australia,  I've never seen this supposed shortage. Maybe it just happens in other countries; yeah, that'll be it.....

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-really-a-shortage-of-engineers
https://semiengineering.com/engineering-talent-shortage-now-top-risk-factor/

This one is about Australia specifically, and touches on shortage of women and their talent.
https://www.afr.com/news/policy/education/talent-search-widens-to-counter-shortage-of-engineers-20190108-h19u3l

 

Offline Dundarave

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1028 on: July 02, 2019, 05:47:33 am »
One thing I don’t recall seeing in this thread is a discussion around the influence of parents/family, and other trusted advisors, to young people who are in the process of deciding on their career paths, and I think that is probably the single biggest reason for the universal male/female career choice disparities, regardless of the profession.

When I went through engineering school (as an older student in my 30’s), I would routinely ask all my young classmates (i.e. 19 – 22 yrs old) why they chose EE, or engineering at all.  Some had a mom or dad who was an engineer, but most said “that’s what my dad (or mom) said to take”  or “I had a choice of engineering or business”.  I was amazed, as I’d always wanted to be an EE since I was 6 or 7.  I simply couldn’t fathom people taking such an intense program and not having the built-in “hunger” that I had to be an engineer.

One young woman classmate, who eventually got her Phd in electromag & wave theory, and is now the president of a very large satellite communications company, told me then (this was back in 1990) that her guidance counsellor in high school went to great lengths to talk her out of entering the engineering faculty, but she did it anyway.  I remember being appalled at that even then.

My point is that for all the talk about “society’s to blame”, male/female psychology, the inherent patriarchy, and all the rest, the reality is that the kid’s closest and most trusted advisors are often the ones responsible for steering kids to their ultimate career path, and it is actually their biases, prejudices, and poor short-sighted judgement that is ultimately responsible for having fewer women than men in the trades, lots of women in nursing and pharmacy, shortages of women in engineering, etc.

It takes a very strong young person to “know what they want” and stick to a path that their parents or other family members may not be fond of, or don’t think is in the best interest of the student.  I’m sure a lot of parents reading this can relate:  everyone one wants their kids to do well in life, and preaching the “best go mainstream, don’t rock the boat” philosophy for picking a career, for a naturally conservative (and somewhat unenlightened, I may add) parent or family member, is the least risky/best advice option they feel they can offer.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1029 on: July 02, 2019, 06:10:09 am »
One thing I don’t recall seeing in this thread is a discussion around the influence of parents/family, and other trusted advisors, to young people who are in the process of deciding on their career paths, and I think that is probably the single biggest reason for the universal male/female career choice disparities, regardless of the profession.

When I went through engineering school (as an older student in my 30’s), I would routinely ask all my young classmates (i.e. 19 – 22 yrs old) why they chose EE, or engineering at all.  Some had a mom or dad who was an engineer, but most said “that’s what my dad (or mom) said to take”  or “I had a choice of engineering or business”.  I was amazed, as I’d always wanted to be an EE since I was 6 or 7.  I simply couldn’t fathom people taking such an intense program and not having the built-in “hunger” that I had to be an engineer.

One young woman classmate, who eventually got her Phd in electromag & wave theory, and is now the president of a very large satellite communications company, told me then (this was back in 1990) that her guidance counsellor in high school went to great lengths to talk her out of entering the engineering faculty, but she did it anyway.  I remember being appalled at that even then.

My point is that for all the talk about “society’s to blame”, male/female psychology, the inherent patriarchy, and all the rest, the reality is that the kid’s closest and most trusted advisors are often the ones responsible for steering kids to their ultimate career path, and it is actually their biases, prejudices, and poor short-sighted judgement that is ultimately responsible for having fewer women than men in the trades, lots of women in nursing and pharmacy, shortages of women in engineering, etc.

It takes a very strong young person to “know what they want” and stick to a path that their parents or other family members may not be fond of, or don’t think is in the best interest of the student.  I’m sure a lot of parents reading this can relate:  everyone one wants their kids to do well in life, and preaching the “best go mainstream, don’t rock the boat” philosophy for picking a career, for a naturally conservative (and somewhat unenlightened, I may add) parent or family member, is the least risky/best advice option they feel they can offer.

Thank you Dundarave for the very instructive and interesting story.  That's in stark contrast to Lisa Su, the CEO of AMD, whose parents gave her 3 career path choices.  She knew she couldn't make it as a concert pianist, and she couldn't stand the sight of blood, which she'd end up seeing as a doctor, so she chose to pursue engineering at MIT.

Whenever I mentioned "culture" in a societal sense, I was including family, friends, and other influencers of young people.
BTW, society is not to blame... what we need to do is to keep improving it. 

https://www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/sociology/culture-and-societies/culture-and-society-defined
Culture consists of the beliefs, behaviors, objects, and other characteristics common to the members of a particular group or society. Through culture, people and groups define themselves, conform to society's shared values, and contribute to society. Thus, culture includes many societal aspects: language, customs, values, norms, mores, rules, tools, technologies, products, organizations, and institutions. This latter term institution refers to clusters of rules and cultural meanings associated with specific social activities. Common institutions are the family, education, religion, work, and health care.
 

Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1030 on: July 02, 2019, 06:41:31 am »
Of course once they get to school they get taught things like this:

Quote
“Decolonizing Epistemology”There is a widespread skepticism about many sorts of knowledge claims today, and this skepticism has been promoted from both the right and the left. The skepticism is largely based on the realization that knowledge is always connected to power. But there is uncertainty about what follows from this: is it still ‘knowledge’?The decolonial epistemology project accepts the connection of knowledge and power but then moves to a different set of questions that are organized in two overall components: (1) to critique existing theories and practices concerning knowledge for the ways in which these theories and practices may be supporting the colonial structure of knowledge, and (2) to develop new reconstructed norms for improved knowing practices without reinscrib-ing colonial relationships. To advance this project, decolonial work in epistemology must address the following:

1. Do social identities matter for knowledge claims? How, exactly?

2. How is ignorance socially produced, and what is the solution?

3. Should we continue to use concepts like ‘rationality’ and ‘reason’?

4. How can science be done in a decolonial way?

5. How do we empower traditional and indigenous knowledges?

Such a project benefits epistemology as a whole. In exploring the ways in which the disen-franchised have been epistemically discredited, we can develop new insights and theories about the general nature of knowledge and of knowers. This project also benefits every community that is struggling for democracy and justice against the forces of capitalism, imperialism, and technocracy.Thus, the question of knowledge, and of who has knowledge, of what kinds of character traits and motivations will best assist knowing, and of how knowledge claims should be assessed, is key to social change. As Boaventura de Sousa Santos puts it, “there is no global social justice without global cognitive justice.”

Which comes from this document:

https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cornell.edu/dist/5/3454/files/2018/11/SCT_prospectus2019_web_v1-185ttqi.pdf

Would you really want someone who's gone through a course like that to work on your houses electrical wiring.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1031 on: July 02, 2019, 07:32:15 am »
Quote
This project also benefits every community that is struggling for democracy and justice against the forces of capitalism, imperialism, and technocracy.
I in particular find the struggle against capitalism taught on a school where you pay ~50kUSD/year, and the realities of a harsh against technocracy, which is pretty much the outcome of engineering funny.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 07:33:47 am by daqq »
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1032 on: July 02, 2019, 07:57:43 am »
Imagine actually spending $150k on a degree like that :scared:

Those people really should be flipping burgers instead of making it a shit-payed job of disprivileged minorities that they claim to help.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1033 on: July 02, 2019, 07:57:56 am »
Of course once they get to school they get taught things like this:

Quote
“Decolonizing Epistemology”...

Which comes from this document:

https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cornell.edu/dist/5/3454/files/2018/11/SCT_prospectus2019_web_v1-185ttqi.pdf

Would you really want someone who's gone through a course like that to work on your houses electrical wiring.

 :scared:

Ummm sure as long as they didn't learn electrical wiring techniques watching photonicinduction videos...

I in particular find the struggle against capitalism taught on a school where you pay ~50kUSD/year, and the realities of a harsh against technocracy, which is pretty much the outcome of engineering funny.

Don't get me started on Marx's critique of capitalism...
Karl Marx saw capitalism as a progressive historical stage that would eventually stagnate due to internal contradictions and be followed by socialism.
From:
https://socialsci.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Sociology/Book%3A_Sociology_(Boundless)/16%3A_Economy/16.1%3A_Economic_Systems/16.1C%3A_The_Marxist_Critique_of_Capitalism
We're already starting to see the beginning stages.
End of political discussion... IBL!



 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1034 on: July 02, 2019, 08:02:07 am »
But I disagree that one need not make certain male-dominated job environments more female friendly. 

I think we should all recognize this and make it more accomodating to women, if not just out of courtesy, perhaps for the good of industry and society, especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.

So you know what jobs in our western european society are even more scarce than engineers because we can not fly them in from other countries because a native language is required for these professions?
Nurses and teachers. Both about 90% female dominated?
Should we make those job-environments more male friendly?
And how would you suggest to do that:
- increase wages
- Add competition
- Fire women hire men so males feel more equal in the colleagues group
- Full time jobs
See where I am going?
There are differences between jobs that attract females and males.
If you actively and artificially forcing more of a certain gender into some line of work you probably will also force another group out.

In your points I miss the steps to make this work.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1035 on: July 02, 2019, 08:03:01 am »
Don't get me started on Marx's critique of capitalism...
Karl Marx saw capitalism as a progressive historical stage that would eventually stagnate due to internal contradictions and be followed by socialism.
The only argument I have ever seen for socialism is that it's better that capitalism and for capitalism that it's better than socialism.
Can't wait for both to nuke each other out :-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1036 on: July 02, 2019, 02:59:54 pm »
Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.

Explain the Scandinavian result.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/



This, and other studies I I"m lead to believe have confirmed it, is massive evidence that any social constructionist advocate must answer.
It's it's not just the absolute numbers, I'm lead to believe that the number actually decreased over time when gender equally increased. This is a stunning result.

You've taken that study way out of context.
Where did they get this "Gender Equality" index?
The report's Gender Gap Index ranks countries according to calculated gender gap between women and men in four key areas: health, education, economy and politics to gauge the state of gender equality in a country.


This study completely ignores cultural and social norms, pressures and stereotypes experienced by women in each of those cultures. 

What they concluded is that:
"It’s not that gender equality discourages girls from pursuing science. It’s that it allows them not to if they’re not interested."

No one is arguing that there is less interest in engineering/IT by women than men.  That's a given.

So you now admit that woman have less interest in engineering than men, great.
Now you just have to realise that there is an inherent natural interest due to biological evolution that is party to cause for it.

Quote
"Genger Equality" advocates are not arguiing that women don't have a choice.  They know women have free choice.  What they hope to achieve is a change in culture and stereotypes to eliminate the cultural and social barriers to women entering Engineering/IT.  And that starts by reaching out to women, and gaining support from men to make Engineering/IT more palatable to women.

That's been the entire goal of the Scandinavian countries!  :palm:
They have worked toward a more egalitarian society, and the result of doing that is that fewer women go into STEM!
And it's not the "culture and stereotype" or any "safety net" because remember, egalitarian means it's the same for all, so men have that option safety net too, and the number of programs and encouragement for girls has only increased. So you have at least 3 influence factors going in a positive direction for women, yet the number of women in STEM has decreased!.
It's almost as if, I don't know, it's the natural interest in the subject that played the driving role.
It's such a slam dunk result, the only reason you wouldn't believe it is if you didn't want to believe it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:28:55 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1037 on: July 02, 2019, 03:09:28 pm »
Quote
So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that.
That has been done so many times with businesses open days for women, government sponsored commercials etc etc.
Result: almost zero.

More than that, they even get access to startup grant money and accelerator programs with a 50% advantage, no men allowed!
https://www.shestarts.com/
Actually, it's more than ruling out 50% of the competition when you take into account the, let's say, 90/10 male/female dong startups. So girls have access to this stuff without competing against say 90% of potential competition. Pretty sweet deal!

That's not grant money.  Its private venture trying to reach out to a talent pool from a niche demography to make money on them.

Correct, not public money (that I am aware of), but the point is the same. This is money and opportunity available only to women.
Again, a pretty sweet deal if you ask me.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1038 on: July 02, 2019, 03:21:03 pm »
My experience in engineering is that there is still some hostility to women in engineering, but it mostly comes from women who are not in engineering, and engineers have little power to do much about that. We might chastise the bad actors, but it seems to have little effect. In the 1970s there used to be bias against women from male engineers, but, like heavy smoking and drinking among engineers, its largely a thing of the past. What kind of horrible places have you worked where women are still made uncomfortable by male engineers - not the women in HR, marketing and other support jobs, but actual male engineers? Most capable people surrounded by low capability people receive enormous pressure to fail. Women engineers might feel they are alone in this, but they are wrong. Capable men among less capable people come under just as much pressure to fail. That's the screwed up nature of human society. However unpleasant other women can be to a woman engineer, its generally only the ones in HR who can seriously hurt a female engineer's prospects.

I had a bunch of engineering students visit me as part of some visit engineering workplaces thing, including several girls. Half of their questions (not just from the girls BTW) were about gender and discrimination in engineering etc, they wanted to know how bad it was.
So they have the fear of this stuff drilled into them at university:(
They seemed genuinely shocked when I told them it's not really a thing and that gender is only one of a dozen different things you can be "discriminated" against for, and you are more likely to be turned down for a job because you weren't enthusiastic enough, or the expression on your face, or your tone of voice etc.
I asked a fairly recent graduate from the same university if this was a thing, and yep, he confirmed it was pervasive through the course and faculty culture.
Wasn't that way when I was at the same uni in the early 90's.
So great work by the universities on encouraging female engineers :palm:

« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:23:11 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1039 on: July 02, 2019, 03:34:42 pm »
I asked a fairly recent graduate from the same university if this was a thing, and yep, he confirmed it was pervasive through the course and faculty culture.
Wasn't that way when I was at the same uni in the early 90's.
So great work by the universities on encouraging female engineers :palm:

It's almost like it's a self-fulfilling victim narrative. Surely not!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1040 on: July 02, 2019, 03:41:40 pm »
This has got me thinking that perhaps all this aggressive movement to get women into STEM might actually end up having a net negative effect?
After all, a lot of these campaigns like to point out the horrible imbalance and difficulties and the oppression etc that women in the industry supposedly face. And I can't help but think that some girls might hear all that, and instead of being encouraged might instead think "geeze, sounds like it could be fight, I'll go pick something easier", than if they had just followed there interest and hadn't seen that campaign. Or they were influenced by more "passive" campaigns? (which I'm more of a fan of)

Note: I don't think that's actually the case overall, but for some campaigns, depending on how they are worded or presented it might possibly be so? Just floating the idea.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1041 on: July 02, 2019, 03:49:26 pm »
...but to change that you don't have to discriminate men or make some job more femalefriendly...

Most if not all advocates for more women in engineering/IT do not condone discrimination against men.

Except universities and large companies like BHP who set gender quotas.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-22/university-advertises-women-only-engineering-positions/10151496
And even national engineering societies that have gender quota's:
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Communities-And-Groups/Special-Interest-Groups/Women-In-Engineering
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1042 on: July 02, 2019, 03:59:05 pm »
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/engineering-gender-equality

Quote
The problem doesn’t lie in the pipeline of prospective students, contrary to common belief. A recent report has shown that Year 12 participation in Australia in Intermediate Mathematics is around 20 per cent for boys while for girls it is around 18 per cent. This suggests that the pipeline for girls into engineering isn’t too dissimilar to that for boys, yet girls don’t go on to choose engineering at the same rate. Other reports show similar trends.


The problem isn’t recruiting female students into engineering, but recruiting them into certain disciplines of engineering. Picture: Getty Images
The problem is also neither one of success nor retention.

The aggregated data for Australian engineering schools shows that women have a higher success rate, a higher institutional retention rate, and a higher engineering retention rate than men for both commencing students and continuing students. The impact of better female outcomes is that there is a greater proportion of female graduates than there are enrolling students.

While these somewhat depressing numbers indicate that we have a problem in engineering, we only have a problem in some disciplines of engineering. It is common that female enrolments very much depend on the sub-discipline.

For example, female enrolments in Chemical Engineering and Environmental Engineering typically exceed 40 per cent and enrolments in Biomedical Engineering approach, and can sometimes exceed, 50 per cent.

In contrast, female enrolments in Civil and Electrical Engineering are typically at the average, while Mechanical and Computer Engineering are well below the average.

The problem is therefore not recruiting female students into engineering generally, but recruiting women into certain disciplines of engineering. Some of the reasons for these substantial differences by discipline may be the curriculum, the pedagogy, the lack of role models and the lack of other women.

We also have to change the way we sell engineering to prospective students. We typically encourage students who are good at maths and science to do engineering, as if that is sufficient reason. To encourage girls, we use photographs of women in pink hard hats.

They mention everything but natural interest in a narrow disciple like electrical/electronics. Must be something seriously wrong with our field  ::)
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1043 on: July 02, 2019, 04:23:44 pm »
This has got me thinking that perhaps all this aggressive movement to get women into STEM might actually end up having a net negative effect?
After all, a lot of these campaigns like to point out the horrible imbalance and difficulties and the oppression etc that women in the industry supposedly face. And I can't help but think that some girls might hear all that, and instead of being encouraged might instead think "geeze, sounds like it could be fight, I'll go pick something easier", than if they had just followed there interest and hadn't seen that campaign. Or they were influenced by more "passive" campaigns? (which I'm more of a fan of)

Note: I don't think that's actually the case overall, but for some campaigns, depending on how they are worded or presented it might possibly be so? Just floating the idea.

Well, one thing's for sure, in engineering the current perceived "wisdom" isn't working very well.

I am also wondering if engineering, particularly electronic and software engineering, is adversely affected by the rapid pace of technology? If you disappear off for three or four years, there is going to be a fair bit of catching up to do: I experienced exactly this myself when I came back out of retirement after a few years' sabbatical. To get back up to speed and become current again took a lot of time and effort, and most tech employers just aren't that interested in hiring someone with stale skills.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1044 on: July 02, 2019, 05:17:29 pm »
But I disagree that one need not make certain male-dominated job environments more female friendly. 

I think we should all recognize this and make it more accomodating to women, if not just out of courtesy, perhaps for the good of industry and society, especially for fields like engineering where there is a shortage of professionals.

So you know what jobs in our western european society are even more scarce than engineers because we can not fly them in from other countries because a native language is required for these professions?
Nurses and teachers. Both about 90% female dominated?
Should we make those job-environments more male friendly?
And how would you suggest to do that:
- increase wages
- Add competition
- Fire women hire men so males feel more equal in the colleagues group
- Full time jobs
See where I am going?
There are differences between jobs that attract females and males.
If you actively and artificially forcing more of a certain gender into some line of work you probably will also force another group out.

In your points I miss the steps to make this work.

Why are we straying away from engineering?

Again society and cultural expectation and stereotypes are pushing women toward nursing, and men away from it.
https://www.nursingtimes.net/why-are-there-so-few-men-in-nursing/849269.article
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/sunday-review/why-dont-more-men-go-into-teaching.html
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1045 on: July 02, 2019, 05:31:35 pm »
Why are we straying away from engineering?
Again society and cultural expectation and stereotypes are pushing women toward nursing, and men away from it.
Because I saved the KO till the last.

Nurses are 90% female and 10% male on most hospital departments except one.
The ICC is at least in our country dominantly male nurses.
Why?
According to my wife who is a BSc educated nurse because it is the most technical department in the hospital except for surgery. In ICC the patient is almost invisible by all the equipment installed, depending on the patients state ofciurse but it can be overwhelming. It is very technical because you need to calculate pressures of different gasses, flow rates, drip rates and different machines upto heartlung machines.

My point is, women choose their jobs in their comfort zone what they like and that is caring for a patient not running machinery. I am generalizing ofcourse but this has zero to do with society who not even knows what is going on in those departments. Still when someone has choosen a certain job in this case a nurse even then you see the same differentiation taking place.

 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1046 on: July 02, 2019, 05:55:49 pm »
Just because a study finds less interest in engineering by women than men, doesn't mean its "natural."  The interests have been culturally shaped and reinforced by cultural feedback.

Explain the Scandinavian result.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/



This, and other studies I I"m lead to believe have confirmed it, is massive evidence that any social constructionist advocate must answer.
It's it's not just the absolute numbers, I'm lead to believe that the number actually decreased over time when gender equally increased. This is a stunning result.

You've taken that study way out of context.
Where did they get this "Gender Equality" index?
The report's Gender Gap Index ranks countries according to calculated gender gap between women and men in four key areas: health, education, economy and politics to gauge the state of gender equality in a country.


This study completely ignores cultural and social norms, pressures and stereotypes experienced by women in each of those cultures. 

What they concluded is that:
"It’s not that gender equality discourages girls from pursuing science. It’s that it allows them not to if they’re not interested."

No one is arguing that there is less interest in engineering/IT by women than men.  That's a given.

So you now admit that woman have less interest in engineering than men, great.
Now you just have to realise that there is an inherent natural interest due to biological evolution that is party to cause for it.

Admit?  I've never disputed this.
There are no studies that prove that biological evolution has steered women away from engineering.
There are plenty of studies that have shown that cultural expectations and perceptions have steered women away from it.
 

Quote
"Genger Equality" advocates are not arguiing that women don't have a choice.  They know women have free choice.  What they hope to achieve is a change in culture and stereotypes to eliminate the cultural and social barriers to women entering Engineering/IT.  And that starts by reaching out to women, and gaining support from men to make Engineering/IT more palatable to women.

That's been the entire goal of the Scandinavian countries!  :palm:
They have worked toward a more egalitarian society, and the result of doing that is that fewer women go into STEM!
And it's not the "culture and stereotype" or any "safety net" because remember, egalitarian means it's the same for all, so men have that option safety net too, and the number of programs and encouragement for girls has only increased. So you have at least 3 influence factors going in a positive direction for women, yet the number of women in STEM has decreased!.
It's almost as if, I don't know, it's the natural interest in the subject that played the driving role.
It's such a slam dunk result, the only reason you wouldn't believe it is if you didn't want to believe it.
Women in Scandinavian countries with better economic protections will be more receptive to cultual and social stereotypes, and make free choices, based on culture.  Women in lesser developed countries without such protections will choose STEM fields out of economic need.  Scandinavian countries have not eliminated cultural and social perceptions and expectations on women.

Gender and the Career Choice Process: The Role of Biased Self‐Assessments
https://sociology.stanford.edu/sites/g/files/sbiybj9501/f/publications/gender_and_the_career_choice_process-_the_role_of_biased_self-assessments.pdf


« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 06:26:14 pm by windsmurf »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1047 on: July 02, 2019, 06:00:14 pm »
Why are we straying away from engineering?
Again society and cultural expectation and stereotypes are pushing women toward nursing, and men away from it.
...
My point is, women choose their jobs in their comfort zone what they like and that is caring for a patient not running machinery.
...

That's also my point. Cultural expectations are that women become caregivers, men become breadwinners. That makes caregiving a "comfort zone" for women.  That stereotype is culturally ingrained all throughout child development.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1048 on: July 02, 2019, 06:03:52 pm »
This has got me thinking that perhaps all this aggressive movement to get women into STEM might actually end up having a net negative effect?
After all, a lot of these campaigns like to point out the horrible imbalance and difficulties and the oppression etc that women in the industry supposedly face. And I can't help but think that some girls might hear all that, and instead of being encouraged might instead think "geeze, sounds like it could be fight, I'll go pick something easier", than if they had just followed there interest and hadn't seen that campaign. Or they were influenced by more "passive" campaigns? (which I'm more of a fan of)

Note: I don't think that's actually the case overall, but for some campaigns, depending on how they are worded or presented it might possibly be so? Just floating the idea.

There's nothing at all aggressive with gender equality movement.  All they're trying to do is to educate folks.
The backlash however has been quite aggressive.

 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1049 on: July 02, 2019, 06:07:38 pm »
Don't get me started on Marx's critique of capitalism...
Karl Marx saw capitalism as a progressive historical stage that would eventually stagnate due to internal contradictions and be followed by socialism.
The only argument I have ever seen for socialism is that it's better that capitalism and for capitalism that it's better than socialism.
Can't wait for both to nuke each other out :-DD

They both lead to virtually the same result when implemented in pure form. A more sensible approach is to pick and choose from the various "isms" depending on the situation.
 


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