Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 92571 times)

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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1050 on: July 02, 2019, 06:16:34 pm »
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So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that.
That has been done so many times with businesses open days for women, government sponsored commercials etc etc.
Result: almost zero.

More than that, they even get access to startup grant money and accelerator programs with a 50% advantage, no men allowed!
https://www.shestarts.com/
Actually, it's more than ruling out 50% of the competition when you take into account the, let's say, 90/10 male/female dong startups. So girls have access to this stuff without competing against say 90% of potential competition. Pretty sweet deal!

That's not grant money.  Its private venture trying to reach out to a talent pool from a niche demography to make money on them.

Correct, not public money (that I am aware of), but the point is the same. This is money and opportunity available only to women.
Again, a pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

The venture capitalist cares not from whom the idea comes from... if it looks like they'll make money on it, they will invest. 
If an idea is good enough to get funding here, it will get funding elsewhere.  This is just advertising to attract a niche demographic who might feel less inclined to propose their ideas for funding to a traditional venture groups.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1051 on: July 02, 2019, 06:17:50 pm »
Don't get me started on Marx's critique of capitalism...
Karl Marx saw capitalism as a progressive historical stage that would eventually stagnate due to internal contradictions and be followed by socialism.
The only argument I have ever seen for socialism is that it's better that capitalism and for capitalism that it's better than socialism.
Can't wait for both to nuke each other out :-DD

They both lead to virtually the same result when implemented in pure form. A more sensible approach is to pick and choose from the various "isms" depending on the situation.

Absolutely in agreement there.  That's why its helpful to also study marxism, and understand its criticism so that capitalism can be improved.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1052 on: July 02, 2019, 06:22:44 pm »
...but to change that you don't have to discriminate men or make some job more femalefriendly...

Most if not all advocates for more women in engineering/IT do not condone discrimination against men.

Except universities and large companies like BHP who set gender quotas.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-22/university-advertises-women-only-engineering-positions/10151496
And even national engineering societies that have gender quota's:
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Communities-And-Groups/Special-Interest-Groups/Women-In-Engineering

BHP has no quota, but you keep spreading this misinformation.  Why?
https://www.bhp.com/our-approach/work-with-us/inclusion-and-diversity

And if some places have a quota, then its definitely fringe and not mainstream advocacy. I'm against it.

 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1053 on: July 02, 2019, 06:39:03 pm »
This has got me thinking that perhaps all this aggressive movement to get women into STEM might actually end up having a net negative effect?
After all, a lot of these campaigns like to point out the horrible imbalance and difficulties and the oppression etc that women in the industry supposedly face.
... Just floating the idea.

Probably yes. I believe that a large majority of women, just like men, are sensible and fairly normal people, who just want to lead normal lives. The culture where they would automagically become either role model heroes, or victims, or a part of a political agenda, is scary for anyone, man or woman.

In fact, I think that statistically, due to biological reasons, women would be even more eager to have a stable, safe, simple life and career: avoid conflict. This is increasingly more difficult for a woman to pull off today, as the modern feminism tries to drive the conflict. Men tend to handle these "conflict", "war" and "politics" things better, so while everybody suffers thanks to modern feminism, the women will suffer even more than men, because men are already quite well in their comfort zones, but feminism is trying to get the women out of theirs.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 06:41:06 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1054 on: July 02, 2019, 10:33:12 pm »

Probably yes. I believe that a large majority of women, just like men, are sensible and fairly normal people, who just want to lead normal lives. The culture where they would automagically become either role model heroes, or victims, or a part of a political agenda, is scary for anyone, man or woman.

In fact, I think that statistically, due to biological reasons, women would be even more eager to have a stable, safe, simple life and career: avoid conflict. This is increasingly more difficult for a woman to pull off today, as the modern feminism tries to drive the conflict. Men tend to handle these "conflict", "war" and "politics" things better, so while everybody suffers thanks to modern feminism, the women will suffer even more than men, because men are already quite well in their comfort zones, but feminism is trying to get the women out of theirs.

Are you suggesting Engineering require their professionals to have conflicts, be unstable, unsafe, and have complicated lives and careers?
And who exactly are suffering due to "modern feminism?"  This is off topic, BTW.
http://www.ushistory.org/us/57a.asp


 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1055 on: July 02, 2019, 11:43:53 pm »
This has got me thinking that perhaps all this aggressive movement to get women into STEM might actually end up having a net negative effect?
After all, a lot of these campaigns like to point out the horrible imbalance and difficulties and the oppression etc that women in the industry supposedly face. And I can't help but think that some girls might hear all that, and instead of being encouraged might instead think "geeze, sounds like it could be fight, I'll go pick something easier", than if they had just followed there interest and hadn't seen that campaign. Or they were influenced by more "passive" campaigns? (which I'm more of a fan of)

Note: I don't think that's actually the case overall, but for some campaigns, depending on how they are worded or presented it might possibly be so? Just floating the idea.

Well, one thing's for sure, in engineering the current perceived "wisdom" isn't working very well.

But what do you base that on?
Let's assume we live in an ideal world, and natural interest i the only things driving choice into engineering, what is the natural gender ratio that can be expected? You have to cite a figure somehow, otherwise there can be no way to say it "isn't working very well".
What if the current ratio is the natural one? just like it might be for say nursing and child care?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1056 on: July 02, 2019, 11:49:48 pm »
Why are we straying away from engineering?
Again society and cultural expectation and stereotypes are pushing women toward nursing, and men away from it.
...
My point is, women choose their jobs in their comfort zone what they like and that is caring for a patient not running machinery.
...

That's also my point. Cultural expectations are that women become caregivers, men become breadwinners. That makes caregiving a "comfort zone" for women.  That stereotype is culturally ingrained all throughout child development.

Except for the very inconvenient fact that it's not just humans that show the "boys like things" trait:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

Quote
Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization. We offer the hypothesis that toy preferences reflect hormonally influenced behavioral and cognitive biases which are sculpted by social processes into the sex differences seen in monkeys and humans.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1057 on: July 02, 2019, 11:59:49 pm »
There are no studies that prove that biological evolution has steered women away from engineering.

Shame about those two different species of monkeys in two different studies:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727

and those pesky chimps too:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1058 on: July 03, 2019, 12:03:43 am »
BHP has no quota, but you keep spreading this misinformation.  Why?

Because it's a fact, they want 50/50 gender balance by 2025, that is their publicly stated goal, I'm not making this up, it's in the link you posted. What on earth do you think "gender balance" means? It was everywhere in the news.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/bhp-billiton-sets-a-5050-gender-target-for-2025-20161020-gs6eib.html
https://www.afr.com/business/mining/bhp-billiton-wants-half-its-workforce-to-be-women-by-2015-20161020-gs6a3n
https://www.bhp.com/media-and-insights/prospects/2017/09/no-silver-bullet-but-great-progress-on-gender-balance
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 12:06:27 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1059 on: July 03, 2019, 05:53:38 am »
There are no studies that prove that biological evolution has steered women away from engineering.

Shame about those two different species of monkeys in two different studies:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727

and those pesky chimps too:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

Those are interesting findings. 
But I would be careful about extrapolating experiments done on behavior of young monkeys to human expected behavior.  And extrapolating ball or doll preference to engineering preference or disinclination is yet another stretch. 

Let's assume there are sex-gene induced predispositions that somehow play a role in career preference.  And that this has given rise to the male-domince in engineering.  I would still argue that there exist cultural bias, and whether this is biologically derived or not, we should work to educate women that engineering is a perfectly acceptable career choice and that industry is ready and willing to accept them into the profession.


BHP has no quota, but you keep spreading this misinformation.  Why?

Because it's a fact, they want 50/50 gender balance by 2025, that is their publicly stated goal, I'm not making this up, it's in the link you posted. What on earth do you think "gender balance" means? It was everywhere in the news.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/bhp-billiton-sets-a-5050-gender-target-for-2025-20161020-gs6eib.html
https://www.afr.com/business/mining/bhp-billiton-wants-half-its-workforce-to-be-women-by-2015-20161020-gs6a3n
https://www.bhp.com/media-and-insights/prospects/2017/09/no-silver-bullet-but-great-progress-on-gender-balance

I feel like we're going around in a circle...  :scared:
So this is from a previous post... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not BHP has a gender quota...

Aspirational goals are not quotas and sometimes not even realistic.

Announcement of such aspiration seem targeted more at creating a dramatic headline, especially in an industry that traditionally are completely male dominated.  Its designed to attract women to see what BHP might have to offer, when traditionally women would never consider even looking at job opening in the mining industry.

And from:
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/bhp-billiton-sets-a-5050-gender-target-for-2025-20161020-gs6eib.html

"Some employees think inclusion and diversity is not an area where we can make significant progress; some think women don't want to work in the mining industry, and some male employees have concerns they may be discriminated against," the note circulated to staff this week said.

"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be."
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 05:55:43 am by windsmurf »
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1060 on: July 03, 2019, 05:56:48 am »
Are you suggesting Engineering require their professionals to have conflicts, be unstable, unsafe, and have complicated lives and careers?

Um, no, I'm not suggesting that :-//. I tried to parse your words in this context for about 5 minutes, totally failed to understand what you are trying to comment about, and have to give up.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1061 on: July 03, 2019, 06:41:01 am »
There are no studies that prove that biological evolution has steered women away from engineering.

Shame about those two different species of monkeys in two different studies:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727

and those pesky chimps too:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

Those are interesting findings. 
But I would be careful about extrapolating experiments done on behavior of young monkeys to human expected behavior.  And extrapolating ball or doll preference to engineering preference or disinclination is yet another stretch. 

Let's assume there are sex-gene induced predispositions that somehow play a role in career preference. And that this has given rise to the male-domince in engineering.  I would still argue that there exist cultural bias, and whether this is biologically derived or not, we should work to educate women that engineering is a perfectly acceptable career choice and that industry is ready and willing to accept them into the profession.

Of course their is some cultural bias no one denies that, but the thing the feminists and white nights for women in engineering don't want to admit is that there is large part that is biological, and perhaps it is even dominate.
Similar to how there are massive biological traits in women (and distinct changes as they mature and have/want to have kids) when it comes to nurturing, hence nursing and child care field dominance etc.

Again, no one thinks we shouldn't be encouraging more women to get into engineering!
And again, this is already being done in copious quantities, so much so that it's hard to think how much more that can be done from an encouragement point of view, the next step is mandated gender targets and subsequent male discrimination that brings, and that is already happening!

But I'm done discussing  this with you. I've tried to point this out over and over again as have others.

So this is from a previous post... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not BHP has a gender quota...

 :palm:
This is beyond ridiculous, you are demonstrably and embarrassingly wrong. The BHP CEO came out publicly and has stated they have a target of 50/50 male/female employees. Whether or not they achieve that or not is immaterial, it's a stated quantified target. They have given speeches and talks on it, covered to the nth degree in the press, yet you try and argue this is not a target quota.

Quote
"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be."

You highlighted the wrong bit  :palm:
Read the 4 words before that, that's what they will do first, before basing decisions on merit.

You have to be trolling at this point.
I'm done.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 07:06:15 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1062 on: July 03, 2019, 07:26:45 am »
"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be."

You highlighted the wrong bit  :palm:
Read the 4 words before that, that's what they will do first, before basing decisions on merit.

You have to be trolling at this point.
I'm done.

The 4 words before that, "once we address that," refers to "we will work to remove the unconscious bias." 
That's ok if you disagree.  I'm done as well.

 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1063 on: July 03, 2019, 10:55:28 am »
"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be."
[...]
The 4 words before that, "once we address that," refers to "we will work to remove the unconscious bias." 
Removing "unconscious bias" won't change their employee markup by itself as they promised elsewhere. Either they fire half of their men to make place for women or double their workforce, which I don't think has been announced yet ;)

You have to be trolling at this point.
I'm done.
No, he's brainwashed and deluded, just like those students who come to you and ask how horrifying it really is out there in the real world.

Time for some Freedom Club :-DD
Quote
14. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that wo-
men are as strong and as capable as men. Clearly they are
nagged by a fear that women may NOT be as strong and
as capable as men.
And that's the gist of it. There are people who have been raised to believe that all people and conceivable "groups" of people literally, exactly, fully equal and that this is what keeps the world from falling apart. They would rather not think about any other possibility and you won't get them to think about it, they would rather not even live in such a world like the one that, coincidentally, actually exists :palm:

It's not really their fault, it's first and foremost the fault of all that civic/liberal/egalitarian brainwashing Westerns are subjecting themselves and their children to.

Also all the lazy asses who can't feel responsible for what happens to their nation's women because "they wanted equality so let them compete on equal terms with literal killing machines, they will be just fine".

Shame about those two different species of monkeys in two different studies:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727

and those pesky chimps too:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

Those are interesting findings. 
But I would be careful about extrapolating experiments done on behavior of young monkeys to human expected behavior.
This is true and you, Dave, are completely wasting your time worrying about monkeys.
Show me a single human society where man and women share "caregiving" and "technological" duties equally.
Not in the West, not in the East, not in African jungle. Not. Even. In. Fucking. Sweden. :-DD
 


Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1065 on: July 04, 2019, 01:02:49 pm »
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/uae-mocked-after-giving-all-its-gender-balance-awards-to-men

Sounds about right, I've had women tell me to my face that they have done 'everything', now men have to do 'something' but when men do do something and get rewarded for it,  what happens...

Mind you if you want to see where this might have come from this video from the US Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (A bipartisan free speech group) from 2007 gives some good pointers.

 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1066 on: July 04, 2019, 03:09:19 pm »
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/uae-mocked-after-giving-all-its-gender-balance-awards-to-men
I have no clue what is going on in UAE but if it is like SA where women are not allowed to drive a car or go outside alone than the chance is small there are powerfull women in charge there who could get such an award.
It is like "best king of the world" award and then complaining there are no women nominated.
 

Offline daniel5555

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1067 on: July 04, 2019, 07:14:16 pm »
Sure, but evidence shows that natural gender interest plays a large role in fields like electronics that are very much "things" oriented. Perhaps this has a much larger effect than any societal factors.
This evidence based explanation make a lot of sense, and may be the reason you'll never see 50/50 in fields like electronics, but it has gotten to that in fields like biological sciences that are not as "things" oriented.
First of all, I find that the very distinction between "things oriented" and not-"things oriented" is dubious at best and highly subjective. Why the biology field is not "things oriented"? I'm not a biologist, but as far as I know, being a biologist implies lab experience and managing chemicals, working with specimens, etc. All of this seems to me being pretty much "things oriented". Also, hobbies such as knitting seem to be vastly more popular among women than men, and it is surely "things oriented".

On the other hand, again, as far as I know there aren't many women programmers or computer scientists, and those fields are pretty much not-"things oriented" under the simple definition. As a "computer engineer" I definitely do not touch almost anything other than the keyboard of my computer and my paper notebook.

Second, I find the expression "natural gender interest" fundamentally misleading. There is nothing "natural" about engineering, math, or programming. All those things, in formalized form, are human inventions and thus have no direct relationship with nature. I can imagine that women are more interested, in general, in having kids than men because of natural inclinations, so to speak. But I find it very hard to imagine the same about actually being interesting in something that doesn't come from nature at all. The reason for something like this must be cultural or sociological, but it can hardly be "natural".

As such, I'm not sure about the evidence (or quality of such) that you claim to be found.

I (and many others on here) have not experienced that hostility in the industry.
This is great, but there is a significant number of women that have claimed that such a hostility exists. It obviously doesn't affect all women in the industry, but I find it unfair to disregard their claims, especially if you're not a women in the industry and can, thus, only observe this from the sidelines.

There will always be "hostility" in countless forms, it's human nature, you can't eradicate it.
As I told some female engineering students who came to visit once, you can be "discriminated" against or find hostility or push-back in countless ways, gender is just one potential thing amongst dozens of other traits.
IME in the electronics industry you'll find push-back against and find hostility in many areas before gender will be taken into account.
I don't recall once in my career ever hearing or encountering dismissal of an engineer or applicant because of their gender. If anything females can have advantages in the industry.
It's one thing to be prepared for hostility and, thus, be able to stand against it, and another is trying to justify it because it just won't go away for some reason.

There are sure other biases aside from gender (race, nationality, trends against certain personality types, mild mental conditions, disabilities, etc.). That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to push back against all of those biases, gender inclusive.

Indeed.
And some personality types don't get very far in organisations. Is that discrimination against shy people? or people (like me) without much tact? They usually aren't going to make it into a CEO position, these people have been oppressed and programmed by society to know their role and place for far too long! Should we have programs to improve the ratio of tactless CEO's in companies? How about redhead CEO's? ;D
I do think there is a discrimination against shy people. It is quite common that those who get promoted or assume leadership roles often are granted such a promotion because they're simply more social and tend to hang out with people after work while people who are more introverted often get overlook even though they may have better technical skills and reasoning. I do think that this is, obviously, a problem and harms industry in general.

To push back against that we can ensure that everyone gets fair amount of time to express their ideas during meeting and by encouraging shy people to be more assertive and persistent.

As about tactless people, maybe this is not common in the pure electronics industry, but in IT in general there is no shortage of jerks among managers and CEOs. Especially in areas like video games industry... Probably you're not aware of it, but you surely would be shocked at shit those people pull on their employees sometimes.

Explain the Scandinavian result.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/
Let's start from what the article says at the beginning...

Quote
Though their numbers are growing, only 27 percent of all students taking the AP Computer Science exam in the United States are female. The gender gap only grows worse from there: Just 18 percent of American computer-science college degrees go to women. This is in the United States, where many college men proudly describe themselves as “male feminists” and girls are taught they can be anything they want to be.

Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “STEM,” as it’s known—are female. There, employment discrimination against women is rife and women are often pressured to make amends with their abusive husbands.

According to a report I covered a few years ago, Jordan, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates were the only three countries in which boys are significantly less likely to feel comfortable working on math problems than girls are. In all of the other nations surveyed, girls were more likely to say they feel “helpless while performing a math problem.”
First of all, this is just the classical example of comparing apples to oranges.

It is not difficult to understand why in countries like UAE women would choose to study STEM - because that would give them certain economical and status advantages in an environment that is by default hostile to women.

On the other hand, the painting of USA as some sort of egalitarian paradise (especially by using the phrase "where many college men proudly describe themselves as “male feminists” ", this is just a bizarre statement) is completely false. True, on paper there is no discrimination against women and no one forbids them to study engineering. On the other hand the political context is highly polarized and hostile, where it seems like there are two highly aggressive "sides" that frequently attack each other and use insults as a primary argument. A lot of people of both genders may simply be discouraged to even mention those topics and I don't see how such a context may be encouraging to women in particular. Many may simply choose to stay away from conflicts and opt for some area where women traditionally are more accepted.

Regarding the "Scandinavian result", I'm not aware of what is going on there. What I can say, based on my experience, is that the egalitarianism on paper doesn't always mean egalitarianism on practice. For example, in Soviet Union there was something like a state-imposed feminism, even though it wasn't called like that and it was imposed mostly by men. But a lot of women held engineering and scientific degrees and professions. Actually not only that, but there were women who were working as construction workers and truck drivers, in other words, they were encouraged to do even the physical work that would mostly be done by men.

But all of that doesn't mean that there was a real egalitarianism in Soviet Union, especially on the level of personal relationships and political power. Even there, women would still be perceived as inferior to men in many cases.

What I see with youngsters( 10-16) is that many boys like to tinker with wood with bikes with electronics. They have a natural interest to find out how things work and are busy with that. Other boys focus on sports.
With the girls they are also interested but then in relationships, emotionas, drama, they are also experimenting but not with things but with eachother and others.
There are exceptions but this will probably never be 50/50, just as that male nurses will never be 50/50 or male teachers in childrens classes (at the moment in our country it is something like 90/10).
I understand what you are talking about. The thing is that no one really knows whether this (if that's actually the case) is a consequence of, as Dave says, "natural" processes or is something that is mostly imposed culturally. This isn't a trivial question. If you put things into perspective, some 200 years ago there was no such thing as women scientists or engineers at all, because women typically had no education or it was extremely limited. They couldn't even vote almost anywhere. It's only some 60 years ago that women started to enter significantly into science or engineering.

Society and culture have to take a lot of time to significantly change. It's not like technology that can change every year or decade. We are talking about generations here and things are going very slowly.

As such, it is simply way too early to draw conclusions at this point.

That has been done so many times with businesses open days for women, government sponsored commercials etc etc.
Result: almost zero.
Well, I can only judge from my experience and I think there is an effect. Things are improving slowly. Even if there is no increase in percentages, I'm more interested in how friendly is, at least, the environment for current engineers in the field. It's getting better.

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In many countries and places there is still a stereotype that women don't do well in engineering or other STEM-fields, so they may even have certain pressure to not pursue that career. This can simply be countered by events and actions like this. As you see, no need to force anybody, just present an alternative point of view to what is currently established in that particular society.
Which countries ? Which continents?
I live in a Western country. I live in Spain, to be specific. Western countries (USA, Canada, European countries, Australia, etc.) are more advanced than the rest of the world. Yet I can't say that things are awesome. If they are not so good here, they can only be worse in the rest of the world. So the answer to your question is surely "all of them".

You do know there is a field in electronics where women are dominant right?
Electronic manufacturing, because they are more precise and accurate in assembling small wires, devices etc. I have zero problems with more women in the STEM fields but it has to be on merit on actual inventions/patents and business contributions, not because they are female and followed the academic programms for ten years and there are no other females, if you get my point.
I am aware of that.

I don't support the idea of quotas, if you're talking about that. I agree about the merit, but probably no one really judges entirely on merit and it is something extremely difficult to define in the first place.

The very page you have quoted from supports what I said about it being broader than the UK - e.g. US STEM graduates between 25 and 35 in 2014 - 19.4% men, and 21.2% women. Once you start splitting out individual STEM topics you are going to get skewed results. The figure you showed for ICT is skewed by about the same amount that you'll find numbers skewed in the opposite direction for many life science topics. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that a similar number of men and women are interested in science, when social pressures to conform to stereotypes are removed. If a large number of the STEM oriented women go for life science degrees, there aren't many left over to study engineering. Similarly, if a large number of STEM oriented men go for engineering degrees, there aren't many left over to study life sciences. These are people's free choices, and they seem to be working quite well. Remember that the number of women graduating in STEM subjects in most countries was extremely low until the 1960s. For things to have evened up in a generation seems quite remarkable to me.
I'm not sure why do you assume an overlap between life sciences and engineering. Typically, people have certain inclinations towards an area of science or engineering... For example, you may be interested in biology, but that doesn't mean that you would equally want to study electronics... Because those are completely different things.

So usually it's not like "I'm going to choose between biology and electronics", but rather it's either science/engineering vs economical/social sciences. So it may be that women certainly don't feel hostility when it comes to life sciences, maybe because there are already many women there, but they may see it in certain engineering areas where there are few women.

What kind of horrible places have you worked where women are still made uncomfortable by male engineers - not the women in HR, marketing and other support jobs, but actual male engineers?
Actually the place where I work is supposed to be very "women friendly" and much better than average. But even a place like this is not perfect.

Yeah, but that's what has been done for like a century and effects are for everyone to see.
So, do you think that nothing have changed for women since 1919?

Also, don't burry your head in sand, consider doing something to stop the whackjobs advocating gender quotas and doing "we only hire women years" so you aren't lumped together with them by accident. Somehow whenever such things happen, all those "Real Liberal just supporting freedom of choice" are nowhere to be seen.
Real Liberals™ need to develop a Real Liberal Feminism-Skeptical Movement uniting all those opposed to bs like gender quotas and spending other people's money, not only theoretically in Internet forum discussions but IRL too, and yet not wanting to become jihadists and alt-righters, which seems the only practical form of resistance today.
At the place where I work we don't have gender quotas and I wouldn't support them. As about others, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. If it's a government that imposes this it's up to the citizens of that country to do something about that. If it's a private entity, just don't give them your money. Other than that, I don't think that I can do something else other than voicing me being against it.

And what if it's true and you are doing young, uninformed women a disservice by encouraging them into fields they are no fit for?
What if it's not true? What if I'm doing young, uninformed men a disservice by encouraging them into field they are no fit for? After all, I'm encouraging everyone, not only women.

Show me irrefutable evidence that you are right, just like you demand evidence for justification of the status quo that remained true for untold millennia.
I don't recall myself demanding any evidence. However we do know for sure that a lot of things that we now know are wrong were considered to be true or correct for many centuries. So it doesn't matter at all that something was supposed to be true for a lot of time.

Do you seriously think that women should not be able to vote and be treated as objects by men?

Of course once they get to school they get taught things like this:
The thing you quoted sounds like a typical postmodernist bullshit. I believe things like those are much more dangerous than quotas and stuff like that. Although they are somewhat related to feminism and other movements, the relationship doesn't always exist and we shouldn't automatically associate one with another.

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"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be."
You highlighted the wrong bit  :palm:
Read the 4 words before that, that's what they will do first, before basing decisions on merit.
Dave, this phrase means "Once we address the unconscious bias, we base decision on merit, which is how it should be." or simply "we will base decisions on merit only". I don't know what this CEO or company really does though, but that's what the phrase says.

The sad truth is that engineers are terrible at reading comprehension. Probably we should read more literary works and not just datasheets.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 07:24:00 pm by daniel5555 »
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1068 on: July 04, 2019, 09:33:36 pm »
If you put things into perspective, some 200 years ago there was no such thing as women scientists or engineers at all, because women typically had no education or it was extremely limited. They couldn't even vote almost anywhere. It's only some 60 years ago that women started to enter significantly into science or engineering.
Well it was common for kings, noblemen, church personell to keep reading and writing to themselves to maintain control and power way till late 15th perhaps even 16th century.
But these were man and women just from the upper classes. But in those days there was a strong cultural harness for both man and women, you only look at what women were not allowed to but the same is valid for men.
So 200 years ago I guess <4% or so of all men would have that privilege to read write and go to college ? Others just doing their craftmanship or farm to pay their rent to the landlords, I won't envy those men.
About voting, funny thing, we have an interesting historic fact here in our country and it is:
"How long after men were allowed to vote were women allowed to vote?"
This is for the Netherlands and almost everyone who did not hear the answer fails this question, the correct answer is:
One year!
So stop quoting and do your own research and think for yourself, all people man and women have both been denied rights and education for most of human history.
I am all for more mixed gender jobs but not by force, quotas or discrimination if the other gender, that is just as wrong.
If the solution to having more female engineers is to have more female engineers in the first place it is a chicken and the egg dilemma.

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I live in Spain, to be specific. Western countries (USA, Canada, European countries, Australia, etc.) are more advanced than the rest of the world. Yet I can't say that things are awesome. If they are not so good here, they can only be worse in the rest of the world. So the answer to your question is surely "all of them".
Funny when I worked in a big R&D company back in 2000 there were three spanish female engineers hired, one EE, two in math. We talked quite a bit. IIRC they said about 30% of their class was female and that it was common to choose these fields in Spain. They had to go to other countries because of a lack of work.
I always used Spain as a positive example.
We are 19 years later and now you are saying that this is all gone? Are you sure? Have you checked in your STEM university sites how many female/male ratio is ?
What is the reason?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1069 on: July 05, 2019, 11:36:17 am »
I'm not sure why do you assume an overlap between life sciences and engineering. Typically, people have certain inclinations towards an area of science or engineering... For example, you may be interested in biology, but that doesn't mean that you would equally want to study electronics... Because those are completely different things.

So usually it's not like "I'm going to choose between biology and electronics", but rather it's either science/engineering vs economical/social sciences. So it may be that women certainly don't feel hostility when it comes to life sciences, maybe because there are already many women there, but they may see it in certain engineering areas where there are few women.

And it may be that men have more of a natural inclination toward engineering.
I know that is not want you want to hear, but what you want to hear and what actually happens can be two different things.
Why has there been a steady rise in women in the biological sciences over the decades but not the same rate of increase for engineering?
It's rather curious don't you think? There is no shortage of promotion, no shortage of female role models, no shortage of existing women in engineering (it's been increasing) etc. And that same thing seems to happen in every country, umm, except for the scandanavian countries where they have fallen. Again, rather curious...
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1070 on: July 05, 2019, 02:55:17 pm »
Are you suggesting Engineering require their professionals to have conflicts, be unstable, unsafe, and have complicated lives and careers?

Dunno about engineering in general, but software development seems to be turning into a warzone.

Also every career complicates your life. It's very hard too remove the way career and family conflict even if the care of kids was evenly shared, only one side has a womb inconveniencing them. Best we can do is artificially try to create the same level of conflict for men, by giving them lots of fully paid paternity leave.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1071 on: July 05, 2019, 03:09:51 pm »
Dunno about engineering in general, but software development seems to be turning into a warzone.
Care to elaborate ? Don't recognize this ?
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1072 on: July 05, 2019, 03:46:08 pm »
Well mostly on the American side, James Damore, Riot Games, Google's wage discrimination lawsuit, etc etc.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1073 on: July 05, 2019, 05:55:18 pm »
Not conflicts.  Competition.

It is fundamentally competition between individuals that gender/tribal politics wishes to eradicate, replacing it with group/tribal identity.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1074 on: July 05, 2019, 06:00:22 pm »
Those are the ones you here about in the news, but remember there are thousands of software companies in the US, the ones I have worked at have not had that kind of battle going on. The place I currently work has an unusually high number of females, though most of the actual developers are male.
 


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