Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 92205 times)

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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1075 on: July 06, 2019, 07:32:54 am »
Those are the ones you here about in the news, but remember there are thousands of software companies in the US, the ones I have worked at have not had that kind of battle going on.
The problem is mainly at high profile companies where many ambitious people want to work and some apparently just can't accept "you are not qualified" as an answer :P

Another thing which disgusts me is the "believe victims" herd mentality. I can't believe that people side with some paranoid delusional feminist who got offended by a dick joke made privately in the audience at a conference. I can't believe people uncritically swallow those stories of workplace harassment and microaggressions without wondering what it looked from the other side and if they themselves wouldn't be equally unpleasant to certain sort of obnoxious proselytizers. I can't believe people side with women who slept their way into career and regretted it (you can bullshit yourself that you don't know what's coming when you meet your manager alone out of work, but we all do, in every civilized culture it means the same). And so on and so on.

And yes, the biggest problem is rarely your regular coworkers. Those are mostly sane folks, I've spent one summer interning at a well known SV company, the people were fine, the manager was level-headed too. But take any sufficiently big company and you will find some crazy SJW manager higher up, maybe even a Chief Diversity Officer on staff :scared: Or maybe they will just cave to pressure of organized SJW mobs from the Internet. It's disgusting. Here in Eastern Europe those people would be just laughed off by virtually everybody.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1076 on: July 06, 2019, 07:50:49 am »
It's disgusting. Here in Eastern Europe those people would be just laughed off by virtually everybody.
Don't worry your country will get there , just a matter of time.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1077 on: July 06, 2019, 11:20:09 am »
Those are the ones you here about in the news, but remember there are thousands of software companies in the US, the ones I have worked at have not had that kind of battle going on.
The problem is mainly at high profile companies where many ambitious people want to work and some apparently just can't accept "you are not qualified" as an answer :P

The large companies are very high profile and it's very trendy to "virtue signal" all the social justice highlight reel.
So the company will change its logo to rainbow colours, put slogans on it's coffee cups etc, all driven by their new "Diversity Manager" hire to keep up with the Jones's.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1078 on: July 06, 2019, 11:26:45 am »
And yes, the biggest problem is rarely your regular coworkers. Those are mostly sane folks, I've spent one summer interning at a well known SV company, the people were fine, the manager was level-headed too. But take any sufficiently big company and you will find some crazy SJW manager higher up, maybe even a Chief Diversity Officer on staff :scared: Or maybe they will just cave to pressure of organized SJW mobs from the Internet. It's disgusting. Here in Eastern Europe those people would be just laughed off by virtually everybody.

I'm absolutely sure all this will be looked back at in 30 years time like we look back at 1980's clothing and go "I can't believe companies used to sexually discriminate against men and people based on the colour of their skin, and jump in tune to a couple of rabid blue checkmark nobodies on twitter."
And SJW's will look back in 30 years time and go "WTF, I can't believe I used to say that!"
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1079 on: July 06, 2019, 12:10:55 pm »
And yes, the biggest problem is rarely your regular coworkers. Those are mostly sane folks, I've spent one summer interning at a well known SV company, the people were fine, the manager was level-headed too. But take any sufficiently big company and you will find some crazy SJW manager higher up, maybe even a Chief Diversity Officer on staff :scared: Or maybe they will just cave to pressure of organized SJW mobs from the Internet. It's disgusting. Here in Eastern Europe those people would be just laughed off by virtually everybody.

I'm absolutely sure all this will be looked back at in 30 years time like we look back at 1980's clothing and go "I can't believe companies used to sexually discriminate against men and people based on the colour of their skin, and jump in tune to a couple of rabid blue checkmark nobodies on twitter."
And SJW's will look back in 30 years time and go "WTF, I can't believe I used to say that!"

This is main reason why we talk about SJW in major companies. Just plain politics:



https://www.fastcompany.com/1688604/see-where-major-companies-lean-politically
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1080 on: July 06, 2019, 01:39:14 pm »
...
Another thing which disgusts me is the "believe victims" herd mentality.
...
Disgusting isn't it?  So much "Oh no! Males are victims now!" herd mentality echo chamber around here.

They used to call guys like that with synonym for a cat :-DD
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 02:00:37 pm by windsmurf »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1081 on: July 06, 2019, 02:00:21 pm »
I'm absolutely sure all this will be looked back at in 30 years time like we look back at 1980's clothing and go "I can't believe companies used to sexually discriminate against men and people based on the colour of their skin, and jump in tune to a couple of rabid blue checkmark nobodies on twitter."
And SJW's will look back in 30 years time and go "WTF, I can't believe I used to say that!"

It will be the other way around.  At least in the U.S., liberal ideals always eventually win, and bring progress to society.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/09/09/liberals-dont-know-much-about-conservative-history-219742
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1082 on: July 06, 2019, 02:13:21 pm »
Social justice liberal progress? :palm:

« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 02:22:42 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1083 on: July 06, 2019, 02:22:48 pm »
Social justice progress? :palm:



Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed, women gained the right to vote.  I'd call that progress.  I'm sure conservatives at the time reacted with a  :palm:
Anyhow getting off topic now. 
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1084 on: July 06, 2019, 02:24:30 pm »
Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed
You do realize that democrats were the proponents of slavery, and republicans opposed it?  Or have you rewritten history already?

There is nothing liberal or progressive in replacing individual competition with group identity and restricting free speech.  Just because you want to think so, does not make it true; nor can you twist reality by misusing terms and ignoring actual history.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 02:26:20 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1085 on: July 06, 2019, 02:28:54 pm »
Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed
You do realize that democrats were the proponents of slavery, and republicans opposed it?  Or have you rewritten history already?

Stilll off-topic, but no rewriting of history necessary.  At the time, democrats were conservative, republicans liberal, at least on this issue.  Social justice movements are not tied to any one particular political party. 
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1086 on: July 06, 2019, 02:38:31 pm »
Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed
...
There is nothing liberal or progressive in replacing individual competition with group identity and restricting free speech.  Just because you want to think so, does not make it true; nor can you twist reality by misusing terms and ignoring actual history.

I'm all for fair competition and a level playing field.  Knowledge through education and understanding levels that field, and that's what most Gender Equality proponents are proposing.  It seems there's an inability to differentiate them from the radical fringe groups that demand quotas, and that's what I'm arguing against. 

Free speech?  That's another big off-topic subject, but I'll just say that there are limits to free speech, as ruled by the supreme court.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 09:59:01 pm by windsmurf »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1087 on: July 06, 2019, 02:58:39 pm »
I'm absolutely sure all this will be looked back at in 30 years time like we look back at 1980's clothing and go "I can't believe companies used to sexually discriminate against men and people based on the colour of their skin, and jump in tune to a couple of rabid blue checkmark nobodies on twitter."
And SJW's will look back in 30 years time and go "WTF, I can't believe I used to say that!"

It will be the other way around.  At least in the U.S., liberal ideals always eventually win, and bring progress to society.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/09/09/liberals-dont-know-much-about-conservative-history-219742
Early in that piece it says "Liberals simply don’t understand conservatives, and vice versa.". That doesn't appear to be the case. In Jonathan Haidt's work he has asked huge numbers of Americans to answer broad ranging questionaires as they feel and as they think people from the other side of political spectrum feel. This shows most people who identify as Republican can put themselves in the position of a Democrat quite well, and answer the questions in a similar way to actual Democrats. However, Democrats trying to put themselves in the position of a Republican typically answer with much more extreme positions than real Republicans actually hold.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1088 on: July 06, 2019, 02:59:16 pm »
Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed, women gained the right to vote.

No, it was the natural rights movement which caused that, which was a confluence between Christianity and classical liberalism. It was about equal rights.

Social justice takes this one step further, a right to equality.
 

Offline analogo

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1089 on: July 06, 2019, 03:46:01 pm »
Just ask Neil deGrasse Tyson - "what's up with chicks and science?" - short clip:

Every single point Neil Tyson made in that video has a corollary in my own experiences in high school. I was really good at maths, physics and chemistry, and people had pre-conceived ideas of what a white kid from London with those talents should do. It was ABSOLUTELY not to study engineering, which is what I wanted to do. People were quite hostile about my choice, but if you live your life by what others expect its going to turn out pretty miserable. I studied engineering anyway.

If you don't mind me asking: what is a white kid from London with those talents expected to do if not studying engineering?
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1090 on: July 06, 2019, 04:02:02 pm »
If you don't mind me asking: what is a white kid from London with those talents expected to do if not studying engineering?
Anything that doesn't make people pose the classic question "Why did you study engineering? You got such good grades in school.". In the UK engineering has a level of esteem somewhere below pimps and drug dealers. Hence you'll hear British engineers repeat old jokes like "Don't let my mum know I work here. She thinks I play piano in a brothel.". This may have a lot to do with the UK collapsing from the leader of the industrial revolution, to a has been with few leading edge industrial businesses left.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1091 on: July 06, 2019, 09:43:22 pm »
Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed, women gained the right to vote.

No, it was the natural rights movement which caused that, which was a confluence between Christianity and classical liberalism. It was about equal rights.

Social justice takes this one step further, a right to equality.

Social Justice is the fair and proper application of natural law. 
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/social-justice.html

How can you have equal rights without right to equality?
Its like saying you have voting rights but no right to voting...


 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1092 on: July 06, 2019, 10:10:28 pm »
Partial quoting is very irresponsible!
Quote
The fair and proper administration of laws conforming to the natural law that all persons, irrespective of ethnic origin, gender, possessions, race, religion, etc., are to be treated equally and without prejudice.

Some discriminations are more equal than other I guess.

   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1093 on: July 06, 2019, 10:11:17 pm »
Every single point Neil Tyson made in that video has a corollary in my own experiences in high school. I was really good at maths, physics and chemistry, and people had pre-conceived ideas of what a white kid from London with those talents should do. It was ABSOLUTELY not to study engineering, which is what I wanted to do. People were quite hostile about my choice, but if you live your life by what others expect its going to turn out pretty miserable. I studied engineering anyway.

If you don't mind me asking: what is a white kid from London with those talents expected to do if not studying engineering?

Sounds like a loaded question, but I'll bite.  He should be free to choose an occupation based on his talent and desires without having to fight barriers placed in front of him.    Barriers consist of outright barriers (quotas, racism, etc) or something more subtle like social, cultural, gender expectations, and expected workplace culture that shape a person's desire to enter a particular field. 

 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1094 on: July 06, 2019, 11:13:32 pm »
How can you have equal rights without right to equality?
People aren't equal but they can be considered to have equal rights, that much should be obvious.

Barriers consist of outright barriers (quotas, racism, etc) or something more subtle like social, cultural, gender expectations, and expected workplace culture that shape a person's desire to enter a particular field.
That's simply not practical. People will always be telling you what they think of you and what they think you should do. Better get used to it.
Also, gender expectations probably includes "become an engineer to show those men you aren't worse", doesn't it? ;)
It is a fundamentally futile and self-contradictory pursuit.

People who know what they want to do won't listen anyway. I was always told not to waste my time at the computer and here I am.

A big problem of women is they give a damn about what people think of them to an extent many men may not expect because they wouldn't even believe it's possible. But what can you realistically do about it?

I have met a girl whose mother was a programmer and so she encouraged the daughter to be. But she frankly cared more about her pet animals and other hobbies than computers. She was quite smart and ambitious, but she actually had little clue about software. She ended up the only girl hired with me and a few other guys, mostly computer-obsessed, for a summer internship (because it will be fun to have a chick around, that's what they said).
It was a massive waste of time and babysitting her was frankly getting on my nerves because I came there to do something challenging and maybe learn a thing or two with other like-minded individuals, not to explain when to use templates or virtual dispatch in performance-oriented code and why. :palm:
In a few years she will probably be writing those articles you read on the Internet about how horrible Imposter Syndrome is and that men don't understand her and whatnot.
Why would anyone do that to her? In a more female field maybe at least she would find some understanding or even coworkers to sit together and be payed talking about that damn rat or whatever thing it was. ::)
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1095 on: July 07, 2019, 01:35:38 am »
How can you have equal rights without right to equality?

By choosing what you define as rights. Lets say you define equal treatment before the law as a right, but you define non discrimination in private interactions not a right for instance.

By using the state to try to create a right to equality (ie. non discrimination) you go well beyond the original concept of equal rights before the law which caused the abolition of racial slavery and universal suffrage. It creates so much needless non sense and strife.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1096 on: July 07, 2019, 06:10:16 am »
How can you have equal rights without right to equality?
Its like saying you have voting rights but no right to voting...
OK, this may be a language thing for me, but, what? What does that even mean? Right to equality, or rather the equality part?

People are not equal, they are different. One is better at something, the other one is better at something else, and some people simply suck at everything. It's sad, but it's true.

Equal rights are not the same as equal results.

I have absolutely no problem with female engineers, technicians, programmers or whatever. I have absolutely no problems with my coworkers being straight, gay, bi, male, female, whatever between, white, black etc, provided they are competent at the job they were hired to do and are moving the company forward.

I do have a problem with some nutter ranting about some place I work at for not having a gender balance, race balance and stuff like that, advising we hire a diversity and inclusion manager*. FFS, companies are there to make profit, research stuff, make stuff, develop stuff, not to be a glorified daycare center where everyone's code is great and no feelings will get harmed!

The universal hiring policy should be: Do you meet the job requirements and, of the candidates available, are you the best one qualified for a job? Yes? Great, you get the job.
Not: Do you meet the job requirements and will hiring you improve our diversity score?


* - this is an actual job position that exists.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1097 on: July 07, 2019, 06:51:31 am »
Thanks to Social Justice, slaves were freed, women gained the right to vote.

No, it was the natural rights movement which caused that, which was a confluence between Christianity and classical liberalism. It was about equal rights.

Social justice takes this one step further, a right to equality.

Social Justice is the fair and proper application of natural law. 
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/social-justice.html
That defines social justice in a way I think most people could get behind. Its not the way the term is currently being applied in academia, and increasingly in legal and social discourse.
How can you have equal rights without right to equality?
Its like saying you have voting rights but no right to voting...
Equal rights means every individual is treated in the same way by the society around us. I think that's a concept most people can get behind. The word "equality" on its own is much vaguer, because it doesn't define what is equal. Increasingly a powerful minority in society is using it to say that if there are not equal outcomes for every intersectional group in society, the reason must be that they are not being treated equally, which is absurd. If a hard working and a lazy person are treated equally, their outcomes are surely going to differ. If two hard working people with different talents or interests are treated equally, their outcomes are surely going to differ. Equal outcomes can only be achieved by the authoritarian manipulation of the starting conditions, and through life. It is the opposite of what I think most people would support - equal opportunity, equal rights and a free and open society.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1098 on: July 07, 2019, 07:37:29 am »
Barriers consist of outright barriers (quotas, racism, etc) or something more subtle like social, cultural, gender expectations, and expected workplace culture that shape a person's desire to enter a particular field.
That's simply not practical. People will always be telling you what they think of you and what they think you should do. Better get used to it.
Also, gender expectations probably includes "become an engineer to show those men you aren't worse", doesn't it? ;)
It is a fundamentally futile and self-contradictory pursuit.

Yes people will always be giving advice, that much is true.  But, I believe, that the advice can be shaped to be less biased through cultural acceptance of new gender roles so that we are not inadvertently coaxing people to bypass professions in which their talents could be best tapped. 

I have met a girl whose mother was a programmer and so she encouraged the daughter to be. But she frankly cared more about her pet animals and other hobbies than computers. She was quite smart and ambitious, but she actually had little clue about software. She ended up the only girl hired with me and a few other guys, mostly computer-obsessed, for a summer internship (because it will be fun to have a chick around, that's what they said).
It was a massive waste of time and babysitting her was frankly getting on my nerves because I came there to do something challenging and maybe learn a thing or two with other like-minded individuals, not to explain when to use templates or virtual dispatch in performance-oriented code and why. :palm:
In a few years she will probably be writing those articles you read on the Internet about how horrible Imposter Syndrome is and that men don't understand her and whatnot.
Why would anyone do that to her? In a more female field maybe at least she would find some understanding or even coworkers to sit together and be payed talking about that damn rat or whatever thing it was. ::)

So are you claiming there are female fields and male fields and that neither belong in each others' fields?
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1099 on: July 07, 2019, 09:47:36 am »
But, I believe, that the advice can be shaped to be less biased through cultural acceptance of new gender roles so that we are not inadvertently coaxing people to bypass professions in which their talents could be best tapped.   

I don't know how it is done in your country but here in Europe there are sooooo many studies and professions to choose from you are just plain lucky you choose the right one at age 18 when you need to decide.
In my time there was some room to change studies so luckily I found out that my first choice and even second choice did not suit me. Only after having worked for a few years I choose  EE and finished it in 3/4 of the time besides a day job. There was ample work in HW when I graduated so I ended up in embedded software. Also interesting but I still miss the Hw which I do in my own time now.

So you might as well give up your utopian dreams and start from the hard reality.
Only 20% of the people end up doing what they are best suited for and enjoy.
A lot of people just can not afford university or college even when they could handle it and it would be right for their talents.

I do not see how you can change this easily? I think if a woman really feels the need to follow some carreer she will do it and does not let culture or bias stand in her way.
History showed this in for instance Mrs Marie Curie,  Lise Meitner, Grace Hopper or even way earlier Ada Lovelace.
If those heroes wanted and could do it in those repressed and male dominated era's then why on earth would a modern young woman in these days not be able to do it?

« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 09:49:23 am by Kjelt »
 


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