Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 92663 times)

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1100 on: July 07, 2019, 09:53:59 am »
Even better watch the movie "Hidden Figures" and see what Dorothy Vaughan a AAW mathematician in the 60s had to do to get her work recognized.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1101 on: July 07, 2019, 11:52:30 am »
But, I believe, that the advice can be shaped to be less biased through cultural acceptance of new gender roles so that we are not inadvertently coaxing people to bypass professions in which their talents could be best tapped.   

I don't know how it is done in your country but here in Europe there are sooooo many studies and professions to choose from you are just plain lucky you choose the right one at age 18 when you need to decide.
When my daughter was applying for university courses in biology 4 years ago I was shocked how narrowly focused many of the course names were. One university had at least three of its biology faculty courses focused just on neurology. Reading their names I had no idea what really differentiated them. How is an 18 year old supposed to make sensible decisions about these courses? Most 18 year old barely know they want to study biology rather than something else. Far fewer know its the large scale (animals, plants, etc.) or the small scale (biochemistry, etc.) that interests them. Even fewer know its the brain that interests them. How many are prepared to select specific aspects of the brain?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1102 on: July 07, 2019, 12:02:43 pm »
Even better watch the movie "Hidden Figures" and see what Dorothy Vaughan a AAW mathematician in the 60s had to do to get her work recognized.
That was the 1960s. A time when in the UK, and I believe many other western countries, there were bizarre restrictions on women, like needing a father or husband's backing to get a loan from a bank. There was huge segmentation of all sorts of groups when you look back that far. A smart working class boy also faced enormous prejudice back them. By the 1970s many of the barriers various groups faced in the 1960s had greatly diminish or disappeared. Now the tough times are returning for some groups, like working class boys, in the UK, while women are still making progress.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1103 on: July 07, 2019, 02:26:23 pm »
That was the 1960s. A time when in the UK, and I believe many other western countries, there were bizarre restrictions on women, like needing a father or husband's backing to get a loan from a bank. There was huge segmentation of all sorts of groups when you look back that far. A smart working class boy also faced enormous prejudice back them. By the 1970s many of the barriers various groups faced in the 1960s had greatly diminish or disappeared. Now the tough times are returning for some groups, like working class boys, in the UK, while women are still making progress.

I agree. In my mid twenties when I was doing software engineering for PC desktop amd maintenance rollouts across large retail banks, and started working in the City, London’s financial district. Shortly afterwards I moved over to the casino banking side designing and maintaining the first PC based client server trading systems. It was not at all uncommon in those days for individuals to move up from the post room to the trading floors. Friday he’d be in company attire, the next Monday a designer suit. In fact the post room was the best place to start, how better to know, and be known, by the entire staff?

The barrier to entry to the trading floor was very low, as long as you had the right attitude. Definitely there was no degree requirement. It was very much the Essex barrow boys and the Eton toffs rubbing shoulders.

Nowadays, no one will look at you unless you have a degree, and, of course, get through the HR gatekeepers first.
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1104 on: July 08, 2019, 08:15:21 am »
Queensland mining health and safety committee in hiatus over ‘gender imbalance’

A Queensland government mine safety committee was forced into hiatus for nearly four months because it didn’t have the right “gender representation,” during a spate of six mining deaths in the state.

Queensland Mines Minister Anthony Lynham today confirmed the committee — which has representatives from the government mines inspectorate, the Queensland Resources Council, and relevant unions — would be re-established this week.

The committee has not met since March 20, but had to cancel its June meeting, The Australian understands.

“The committee has to be, certain representation has to be made in the committee, you have to make sure of gender representation is respected,” Dr Lynham said.


https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/queensland-government-disbanded-mining-health-and-safety-committee-over-gender-imbalance/news-story/84fa8f3a0179713bf25b2d4c6b034873

If it wasn't such a tragedy you'd laugh. For those non-Australians, Queensland is a state of Australia and where mining is a very big deal.
 

Offline analogo

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1105 on: July 08, 2019, 03:36:23 pm »
If you don't mind me asking: what is a white kid from London with those talents expected to do if not studying engineering?
Anything that doesn't make people pose the classic question "Why did you study engineering? You got such good grades in school.". In the UK engineering has a level of esteem somewhere below pimps and drug dealers.

Fascinating. In central and southern Europe engineers are well respected professionals, on par with medical doctors and lawyers. Bright white boys are expected to become engineers. Heaven forbid they ever think of studying literature or enrolling in a nursing school!
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1106 on: July 08, 2019, 04:14:11 pm »
If the study below is to be believed, at least the vast majority of Americans are quite tired of PC and other Twitter-fabricated crisis that are amplified by the regular outlets.
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/americans-strongly-dislike-pc-culture?utm_source=pocket-newtab

At the end of the day, the issues that matter are at the likes of "where is my next meal is coming from", "how can I give my offspring better chances at life" and other real issues.

IMO my biggest concern about Twitter-fabricated issues is the evidence posted here of how these toxic topics and misconceptions are affecting lives by means of employment opportunities, increase in tension at the workplace/personal relations and the potential to create/increase previously-inexisting (or tamed) resentment across genders, ethnicities, etc.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Beamin

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1107 on: July 08, 2019, 04:27:34 pm »
By what definition of dominated?  The vast majority of workers in the tech industry have been white males, yes. Dominated? That's a loaded term.

Considering the prevalence of subfields where women have been majority workers (from textile factories to welding during wartime), I would say the tech industry has generally been more open to people of all backgrounds than the surrounding culture at the same time (meaning, both women and men accepted, without their family history and upbringing being involved, as was otherwise common at the time.)  That's not domination by any definition I understand.

Dominated as in males have been the vast majority, no sense in debating semantics, you know what I meant.


When I saw "dominated" in this thread I thought of something else. My preference in a partner is a  dominant white male.


55k views 1100 posts. This is one of the greatest eevblog threads of all times. Lets go start at post #1 and catch up what I missed. This thread goes wildly off topic several times. BRB while I reread it...
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1108 on: July 09, 2019, 01:24:34 am »
If you don't mind me asking: what is a white kid from London with those talents expected to do if not studying engineering?
Anything that doesn't make people pose the classic question "Why did you study engineering? You got such good grades in school.". In the UK engineering has a level of esteem somewhere below pimps and drug dealers.

Fascinating. In central and southern Europe engineers are well respected professionals, on par with medical doctors and lawyers. Bright white boys are expected to become engineers. Heaven forbid they ever think of studying literature or enrolling in a nursing school!

I would have to say that the pressure/opinion of parents and friends would have to greatly outweigh any potential pressure from the industry itself.
e.g. say a girl who is deciding whether or not to study engineering, surely there would be more potential negative pressure from the parents and friends than there would be from any perceived "bias" against women in the industry, or "bad stories" from other women in the industry etc. Most kids wouldn't know or have spoken to other other engineers. it certainly would be from the lack of promotion of engineering to female, as that seems pervasive today.
And sure, it's good to try and take away that "sigma", just as it would be for males to get into nursing or child care etc. But realistically it's never going to be zero.

In my experience the majority of people who study engineering have no real interest in it, they did it because their parents wanted them to, or their friends did it, or they thought it sounded respectable etc.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1109 on: July 09, 2019, 11:17:17 am »
Most kids wouldn't know or have spoken to other other engineers.
This is a huge deal for many teenagers trying to make choices about university and careers beyond that. It may look like a lack of any real decision when you see people going into the same profession as their parents. However, its a situation where they were able to get good advice and see role models of how that profession has worked out for real people. If a teenager shows interest in a profession where the don't personally know anyone in that profession it a crap shoot for them. You might be able to find "independent" mentors, but nobody is really that candid about their own profession. They are likely to either give you an unreasonably rosy view, or an unrealistically dismal one.

In the 80s a number of colleagues and I were asked to advise teenagers about engineering careers in the UK. They stopped asking us when them realised we all intended to say engineering can have a high interest level, but seriously sucks as a profession in the UK. I think most UK engineers would consider that a balanced view. We certainly had a high level of agreement about the view we intended to present. However, these youngsters were denied access to it. Only people painting an unrealistic view were allowed to advise them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:20:07 am by coppice »
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1110 on: July 09, 2019, 05:48:14 pm »
In Finland, 8th graders get one week, 9th graders two weeks, to get introduced to working life, as interns: TET (in Finnish, intended for schoolkids; couldn't find info in English).  Kids choose and find the place themselves.  I had mine in a bakery up north (on a busy week before May Day, too), and another at a construction site in Helsinki (paid work, too), but that was almost three decades ago.  It's definitely not optimal, but some kids get invaluable experience on what kind of work might interest them.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1111 on: July 09, 2019, 06:20:35 pm »
Still the actual way technical jobs are performed change so fast that a teenager can hardly imagine how his job would look like.
For instance software engineer, at this moment we still hardcode write programs make designs. In ten years it will for a large part be model driven, drawing pictures and the code is generated.
Then also many jobs die out or are transferred to foreign countries.
It is very tough to make your decision on someones current job.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1112 on: July 09, 2019, 06:46:45 pm »
Still the actual way technical jobs are performed change so fast that a teenager can hardly imagine how his job would look like.
For instance software engineer, at this moment we still hardcode write programs make designs. In ten years it will for a large part be model driven, drawing pictures and the code is generated.
Then also many jobs die out or are transferred to foreign countries.
It is very tough to make your decision on someones current job.
Dramatic changes in the way software is produced have been just a few years away since the 1960s. Maybe at some point things actually will change.  :)

Lots of industries change dramatically, but its only if they disappear that you are probably going to change from liking them to wishing you'd chosen something else. Most people are happy to adapt to changes in their work, as long as there is still work to do. Trying to get an idea of what is likely to happen in an industry should be a key part of deciding whether to choose it, but few people can actually spot a tsunami coming. Predictions are tough, especially ones about the future.  :) A sensible person should always keep a second career path on the back burner,
 

Offline daniel5555

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1113 on: July 10, 2019, 07:20:36 pm »
So stop quoting and do your own research and think for yourself, all people man and women have both been denied rights and education for most of human history.
I'm well aware that both men and women have been denied their rights. It is a fact, however, that women usually did have less rights than men. Usually women also received their rights later than men. In some places, like Netherlands, it could have been "just" one year, in some courtiers women still don't have the same rights as men.

Funny when I worked in a big R&D company back in 2000 there were three spanish female engineers hired, one EE, two in math. We talked quite a bit. IIRC they said about 30% of their class was female and that it was common to choose these fields in Spain. They had to go to other countries because of a lack of work.
I always used Spain as a positive example.
We are 19 years later and now you are saying that this is all gone? Are you sure? Have you checked in your STEM university sites how many female/male ratio is ?
What is the reason?
Not, it's not gone. I think it is the same as before. Spain is, on paper, more advanced than other countries in this regard, although I'm cautious about claiming this, because I don't have enough information about all other countries, and also because I don't think that the things are perfect here. There is still a lot of work to do.

And it may be that men have more of a natural inclination toward engineering.
I know that is not want you want to hear, but what you want to hear and what actually happens can be two different things.
Why has there been a steady rise in women in the biological sciences over the decades but not the same rate of increase for engineering?
It's rather curious don't you think? There is no shortage of promotion, no shortage of female role models, no shortage of existing women in engineering (it's been increasing) etc. And that same thing seems to happen in every country, umm, except for the scandanavian countries where they have fallen. Again, rather curious...
Well, let's see...

First of all, I think that electronics engineering and computer science are, still, very new fields/sciences compared to biological sciences. This means that, for example, in 1960s those were fields that still weren't completely formalized and no one, probably, knew exactly what those fields actually were. That was combined with the fact that women weren't still largely entering science and engineering, because of several reasons. In fact, even in humanitarian sciences women still weren't quite there.

For example, from Wikipedia:

Quote
Barring women from practicing law was prohibited in the U.S. in 1971.[8] In 1975, Julia Cooper Mack was appointed to the D.C. Court of Appeals, making her the first woman of color, and only the eighth woman total, to be appointed to a court of last resort. By 1993, 60 women had served on the highest court in forty states, the District, and the federal courts. As of 2001,[9] women comprised 26.3% of the judgeships on state courts of last resort, 19.2% of federal district court judgeships, 20.1% of federal appellate judgeships, and as of 2018, 33.3% of the U.S. Supreme Court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_States_judiciary

In other words, really it's been only 50 years or so since women actually started to enter in fields and professions usually reserved to men. It's only natural that first fields they would choose were fields that were more established as opposed to those still developing. Yet, there was some number of women programmers and engineers even back then, some achieving notable results, such as Margaret H. Hamilton.

Second, when the field became more established, I think, at the same time it developed an internal culture that was initially quite hostile to women. There were many reasons for this, but, generally, I would say that those fields had some unique properties that didn't apply to any other engineering or scientific field. For example, those fields combined high competitivity and difficulty, at the same time becoming extremely successful as businesses, showing an unprecedented growth and generating huge profits.

Many of the people who became successful and influential weren't exactly the examples of maturity, empathy or tact. We still have the stereotypical image of a successful Silicon Valley CEO, who is a brilliant self-made jerk (such as Elon Musk) or similarly brilliant programmers like Linus Torvalds or Theo de Raadt, who often used very aggressive style while expressing their opinions and evaluating others (basically they were confusing honesty with being rude). I think, that all of that also came with certain amount of sexism, because it was perceived as something natural, cool and, honestly, sometimes because those people didn't know any better.

It's not like everyone was doing this and it's not like the whole industry is like this, but I think that all those things indeed made it more difficult for women to work and advance in this field.

You do realize that democrats were the proponents of slavery, and republicans opposed it?  Or have you rewritten history already?
You do realize that democrats and republicans today have not much to do with democrats and republicans back when slaves were freed?

I mean the claim was that "Social Justice freed slaves", it didn't even mention democrats.

I have met a girl whose mother was a programmer and so she encouraged the daughter to be. But she frankly cared more about her pet animals and other hobbies than computers. She was quite smart and ambitious, but she actually had little clue about software. She ended up the only girl hired with me and a few other guys, mostly computer-obsessed, for a summer internship (because it will be fun to have a chick around, that's what they said).
It was a massive waste of time and babysitting her was frankly getting on my nerves because I came there to do something challenging and maybe learn a thing or two with other like-minded individuals, not to explain when to use templates or virtual dispatch in performance-oriented code and why. :palm:
This is a typical case of someone's parent pushing them into doing something they don't want to. Has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Some girl might be pushed into social sciences while she wants to do electronics.

In a few years she will probably be writing those articles you read on the Internet about how horrible Imposter Syndrome is and that men don't understand her and whatnot.
The Imposter Syndrome is a real thing, actually. Can cause a suicide in its worst manifestation. But has nothing to do with this topic either.

Why would anyone do that to her? In a more female field maybe at least she would find some understanding or even coworkers to sit together and be payed talking about that damn rat or whatever thing it was. ::)
What the heck is a "more female field"? You mean it's a place where people prefer compassion to being entitled?

You said previously you were expecting to "maybe" learn something during the internship and do something challening. I'm not sure why you were annoyed about this girl when she was learning something from you and offered you a challenge. I get it, she probably was in a wrong place and didn't have much interest it computers. Still you could use it as an opportunity to learn how to teach and help others, you chose not to.

Disgusting isn't it?  So much "Oh no! Males are victims now!" herd mentality echo chamber around here.

They used to call guys like that with synonym for a cat :-DD
It is a long-time observation of mine that some people who are actively opposing the SJWs are far more thin-skinned, annoying and louder than SJWs ever were.
 

Offline Beamin

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1114 on: July 10, 2019, 07:38:32 pm »
In Finland, 8th graders get one week, 9th graders two weeks, to get introduced to working life, as interns: TET (in Finnish, intended for schoolkids; couldn't find info in English).  Kids choose and find the place themselves.  I had mine in a bakery up north (on a busy week before May Day, too), and another at a construction site in Helsinki (paid work, too), but that was almost three decades ago.  It's definitely not optimal, but some kids get invaluable experience on what kind of work might interest them.

I thought all people in finland were expected to crush things and listen to very heavy metal music. Some times when not crushing they are blowing up: did you know hockey pucks and paper explode with fire when crushed? When that happens you say "what tha faak, it didn't get crush ed it got explode ed". The Finnish accent in English is the most entertaining accent to listen to, mainly because of the way they say ED  instead of 'd.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1115 on: July 10, 2019, 07:57:22 pm »
You do realize that democrats were the proponents of slavery, and republicans opposed it?  Or have you rewritten history already?
You do realize that democrats and republicans today have not much to do with democrats and republicans back when slaves were freed?

I mean the claim was that "Social Justice freed slaves", it didn't even mention democrats.
That was the underlying point.  That "social justice" that freed slaves is totally different to what "social justice" means today.

It is a long-time observation of mine that some people who are actively opposing the SJWs are far more thin-skinned, annoying and louder than SJWs ever were.
It is a long-time observation of me that the most thin-skinned, annoying, loud, and violent people I know, are all SJWs.  Just look at the eyes rounded with rage.
(Also, most Finns prone to violence I know, all chose non-armed military service over armed service.  Which is good in its way, though; you don't want to give those people firearms anyway.)

I thought all people in finland were expected to crush things and listen to very heavy metal music.
Only outside Helsinki and Turku.  People there think anything recognizably Finnish is horrible, and should be eradicated.  In Helsinki, people cringe if you admit you enjoy watching HPC, and tell you that people in Helsinki are really more cultured and European than that silly pair of hicks.  I love'em.

The Finnish accent in English is the most entertaining accent to listen to, mainly because of the way they say ED  instead of 'd.
We call it rally English, for obvious reasons.  When I learned English, I softened my r too much, but I have started putting hard r's back: it is easier to decipher, even though as an accent it sounds ridiculous.  (Finnish swear words are also very cathartic, with hard consonants, making them physiologically useful.) A lot of Finns can understand and speak pretty darn good rally english, but are too ashamed to speak it, because it sounds so "bad" even to themselves: in school, emphasis in learning a language is in learning the grammar and syntax.  (I remember one person getting a bad grade in a spot quiz, because they used synonyms they had learned while spending a year in New Zealand, instead of the ones in that chapter of the book.)  Plus, we don't have gender pronouns (and typically even use 'it' for everything and everybody in daily speech, not distinguishing between humans and animals or objects), which makes life funnier.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1116 on: July 10, 2019, 10:38:47 pm »
There are no studies that prove that biological evolution has steered women away from engineering.

Shame about those two different species of monkeys in two different studies:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727

and those pesky chimps too:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

Self-denominated "progressives" like to affirm that men and women are exactly alike in temperament, capabilities, inclinations, etc. and that it is only culture that conditions us and makes us different. This is an extraordinary claim because it goes against observations in children before they can be conditioned by anything and because in most animal species the different sexes show marked differences in temperament, disposition, roles, etc.  It would be extremely unusual if this did not happen in humans and yet it is asserted without proof or support and it has become the "truth" by force or repetition.

It is amazing how easily through repetition people will come to believe anything, no matter how absurd or how it goes against the strongest evidence. People are driven by repetition into frenzies and dissenters do well to keep a low profile because the mob will eat you alive. Better lay low and wait for the furor to pass than to be burnt at the stake.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1117 on: July 10, 2019, 11:00:40 pm »
It is amazing how easily through repetition people will come to believe anything, no matter how absurd or how it goes against the strongest evidence. People are driven by repetition into frenzies and dissenters do well to keep a low profile because the mob will eat you alive. Better lay low and wait for the furor to pass than to be burnt at the stake.

It's tribalism. The bigger the tribe - the more interest from people of power meaning politicians. When flatearthers will outnumber feminists - we will be talking about them ;)
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1118 on: July 11, 2019, 07:41:52 am »
There are no studies that prove that biological evolution has steered women away from engineering.

Shame about those two different species of monkeys in two different studies:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727

and those pesky chimps too:
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

Self-denominated "progressives" like to affirm that men and women are exactly alike in temperament, capabilities, inclinations, etc. and that it is only culture that conditions us and makes us different....

You don't understand progressives at all if that's what you think. 

Historical:
https://www2.gwu.edu/~erpapers/teachinger/glossary/progressive-era.cfm
Modern:
https://medium.com/tptimes/principles-of-a-modern-progressive-movement-a2c3f9e5d25a
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1119 on: July 11, 2019, 10:41:49 am »
I cannot see anything in those two pages that is even remotely related to what I said. Maybe you can explain it in your own words?
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1120 on: July 11, 2019, 05:06:13 pm »
I cannot see anything in those two pages that is even remotely related to what I said. Maybe you can explain it in your own words?

My point is there is no such belief within the progressive's ideology (that men and women are exactly alike in temperament, capabilities, and inclinations, etc.).

Those who work against progressivism like to point out differences between people as an excuse for continued bias and discrimination.


 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1121 on: July 12, 2019, 08:41:47 am »
I cannot see anything in those two pages that is even remotely related to what I said. Maybe you can explain it in your own words?

He's trolling, don't waste your time.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1122 on: July 12, 2019, 04:08:09 pm »
I cannot see anything in those two pages that is even remotely related to what I said. Maybe you can explain it in your own words?

My point is there is no such belief within the progressive's ideology (that men and women are exactly alike in temperament, capabilities, and inclinations, etc.).

Those who work against progressivism like to point out differences between people as an excuse for continued bias and discrimination.

You must know a different group of progressive activists than I do, either that or you are being willfully ignorant or deliberately using doublespeak.
 

Offline sambonator

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1123 on: July 12, 2019, 05:37:39 pm »
I cannot see anything in those two pages that is even remotely related to what I said. Maybe you can explain it in your own words?

My point is there is no such belief within the progressive's ideology (that men and women are exactly alike in temperament, capabilities, and inclinations, etc.).

Those who work against progressivism like to point out differences between people as an excuse for continued bias and discrimination.

You must know a different group of progressive activists than I do, either that or you are being willfully ignorant or deliberately using doublespeak.

Do you know of any progressives fighting to get women to play in the NFL?  NBA? MLB?
I sure don't. 
 

Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1124 on: July 12, 2019, 05:44:03 pm »
Yes and no. I know people who vehemently support trans women, i.e. men who have taken female hormones competing in women's sports. That's pretty close to what you describe. The ones I know are armchair activists rather than actually going out there trying to make it happen, but there are certainly those more actively championing such causes.
 


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