Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 110689 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1275 on: August 31, 2019, 01:07:23 am »
You think they're learning? Always the optimist.

True. They do seem to get just more and more radical until they come-a-gutsa.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1276 on: August 31, 2019, 02:34:08 am »
You think they're learning? Always the optimist.

True. They do seem to get just more and more radical until they come-a-gutsa.
Call me an optimist, but I think the extremists are being slowly pushed aside by more and more people seeing the internal conflicts of their ideology ("go woke and go broke", just like the Gillette backfire) - sure, they certainly influenced society of three/four years ago in irreversible ways but the most radical initiatives will be pushed aside as several media channels and "regressive left influencers" see their numbers fizzle year over year. Will this happen in the next five years? I really don't know, but five years ago the landscape was quite different as well.
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Offline John B

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1277 on: August 31, 2019, 03:16:15 am »
They aren't extremists, they're elitists. Most people already view these ideologies negatively, however the people who ascribe to it generally view themselves as both morally and intellectually superior, then seek positions of power over other people, and hire like minded individuals, further consolidating their power.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1278 on: August 31, 2019, 05:02:57 am »
You think they're learning? Always the optimist.

True. They do seem to get just more and more radical until they come-a-gutsa.
Call me an optimist, but I think the extremists are being slowly pushed aside by more and more people seeing the internal conflicts of their ideology ("go woke and go broke", just like the Gillette backfire) - sure, they certainly influenced society of three/four years ago in irreversible ways but the most radical initiatives will be pushed aside as several media channels and "regressive left influencers" see their numbers fizzle year over year. Will this happen in the next five years? I really don't know, but five years ago the landscape was quite different as well.

I've been saying for many years now that the SJW's and identity driven politics are ultimately going to lose, and history will not be kind.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1279 on: August 31, 2019, 07:05:30 am »
Call me an optimist, but I think the extremists are being slowly pushed aside by more and more people seeing the internal conflicts of their ideology ("go woke and go broke", just like the Gillette backfire) - sure, they certainly influenced society of three/four years ago in irreversible ways but the most radical initiatives will be pushed aside as several media channels and "regressive left influencers" see their numbers fizzle year over year.
There is actually a simple way of having everything the left has achieved since 1900 reversed: just let them keep pushing their luck.

Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years? I would say SJWs have won some rights to have their delusions recognized as legitimate, so for example there is some women who are plain dumb/incompetent but are being put up with by the industry for social justice and some other similar nonsense, but I really don't see it lasting. If they are lucky, people will have enough pity to let them live their fantasy with the understanding that they really are irrelevant after all. And they may not be so lucky, and even if they are, they may not accept it and keep whining until they get rejected by society and blow their brains out. Call me cynical if you want >:D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1280 on: August 31, 2019, 08:22:46 am »
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years? I would say SJWs have won some rights to have their delusions recognized as legitimate

So legitimate that gender studies courses are being offered by some of the most prestigious universities. All these fools paying top dollar who think they are getting a useful education are going to be in for a big surprise...
Reminds me of the US parents who send their kids to Australia to Hillsong College that's a stones throw from my lab, thinking they are getting a useful "college education"  :palm:
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1281 on: August 31, 2019, 08:54:37 am »

So legitimate that gender studies courses are being offered by some of the most prestigious universities. All these fools paying top dollar who think they are getting a useful education are going to be in for a big surprise...
Reminds me of the US parents who send their kids to Australia to Hillsong College that's a stones throw from my lab, thinking they are getting a useful "college education"  :palm:

I used to say the same about all liberal arts studies... until I realized "useful" is a relative term. 
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1282 on: August 31, 2019, 09:50:12 am »
Many areas of "knowledge" can be profitable for some individuals while being neutral or negative to society as a whole. I am sure there have been many people in communist countries who made a good living studying and dissecting the thoughts of Marx or communist economics and how they relate to the survival of the African elephant.

In the Middle Ages there were whole universities and schools of thought regarding the nature of God and how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. This must have been considered a very important issue at the time.

Society can support a few worthless individuals studying and teaching and writing about feminist and gender studies and how sexism contributes to global warming and all sorts of other evils. The greater problem is the harm they do to greater society by spreading their nonsense.
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1283 on: August 31, 2019, 10:48:47 am »
So legitimate that gender studies courses are being offered by some of the most prestigious universities.
Prestige is a social construct. Society giveth, society taketh away.

All these fools paying top dollar who think they are getting a useful education are going to be in for a big surprise...
Not gonna be that fast, first they will get nice jobs as diversity consultants, researchers or political advisors.
But bullshit is bullshit. People will run out of patience like in America or out of money like in France.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1284 on: August 31, 2019, 06:24:29 pm »
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years?
For one, men are already much more cautious in the workplace with whatever they say or joke about. We can argue how far will this go or the side effects for women's and men's careers, but it certainly shifted the workplace relationships in an irreversible way. Or do you think this whole thing will be fully forgotten by absolutely 100% of people in a few years?
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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1285 on: August 31, 2019, 06:51:59 pm »
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years?
For one, men are already much more cautious in the workplace with whatever they say or joke about. We can argue how far will this go or the side effects for women's and men's careers, but it certainly shifted the workplace relationships in an irreversible way. Or do you think this whole thing will be fully forgotten by absolutely 100% of people in a few years?
You must be young. I've worked since the mid 70s and these things have ebbed and flowed a lot in that time. It was amusing to see #metoo treated as though it were something novel. Its an idea the gets recycled every few years, typically after a big public scandal about an abuse of power. The only difference now is social media has turned up the volume to 11.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1286 on: August 31, 2019, 07:03:35 pm »
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years?
For one, men are already much more cautious in the workplace with whatever they say or joke about. We can argue how far will this go or the side effects for women's and men's careers, but it certainly shifted the workplace relationships in an irreversible way. Or do you think this whole thing will be fully forgotten by absolutely 100% of people in a few years?
You must be young. I've worked since the mid 70s and these things have ebbed and flowed a lot in that time. It was amusing to see #metoo treated as though it were something novel. Its an idea the gets recycled every few years, typically after a big public scandal about an abuse of power. The only difference now is social media has turned up the volume to 11.

That's part of the problem, everything becomes a "global" concern. People used to be worried about local problems and now they don't give a shit if half their city is crumbling because some girl didn't want to be an engineer. If the focus remains then some other "real" issues will fall by the wayside. However, feminists aren't really worried about anyone but themselves so you could be right and they may fade away.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1287 on: August 31, 2019, 07:05:30 pm »

You must be young.
Not young but I was raised in Brazil. Different society with a very different dynamic.

Regardless, as you said the social media is what brought this new wave to an entire new level by becoming "full duplex" instead of "simplex" (the public can now voice their opinions). That alone is an irreversible change to public relations.

What I am trying to say is that fads ebb and flow, but always leave traces behind that add to a new level of interpersonal and societal relations.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1288 on: August 31, 2019, 07:07:12 pm »
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years?
For one, men are already much more cautious in the workplace with whatever they say or joke about. We can argue how far will this go or the side effects for women's and men's careers, but it certainly shifted the workplace relationships in an irreversible way. Or do you think this whole thing will be fully forgotten by absolutely 100% of people in a few years?
You must be young. I've worked since the mid 70s and these things have ebbed and flowed a lot in that time. It was amusing to see #metoo treated as though it were something novel. Its an idea the gets recycled every few years, typically after a big public scandal about an abuse of power. The only difference now is social media has turned up the volume to 11.

That's part of the problem, everything becomes a "global" concern. People used to be worried about local problems and now they don't give a shit if half their city is crumbling because some girl didn't want to be an engineer. If the focus remains then some other "real" issues will fall by the wayside. However, feminists aren't really worried about anyone but themselves so you could be right and they may fade away.
Some people just want to watch the world burn, and now social media has connected them into an effective team.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1289 on: August 31, 2019, 08:12:02 pm »
Seriously though, I'm not sure what you think has changed irreversibly in the last 4 years?
For one, men are already much more cautious in the workplace with whatever they say or joke about.
Meh, sounds like the entire Eastern Bloc for 50 years.

Or do you think this whole thing will be fully forgotten by absolutely 100% of people in a few years?
Of course such things aren't forgotten, that's the whole point ;)

The biggest weapon of leftists is making everyone feel like you are the only one who hates them.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1290 on: August 31, 2019, 09:50:56 pm »

Or do you think this whole thing will be fully forgotten by absolutely 100% of people in a few years?
Of course such things aren't forgotten, that's the whole point ;)
Ergo, irreversible. :-+

The biggest weapon of leftists is making everyone feel like you are the only one who hates them.
I wouldn't call "leftists" but the fringe radicals. But yes, that's one of their weapons. Another is mask their intentions with concepts that are hard to fault or impose a limit, such as "fair distribution of wealth". :)
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1291 on: August 31, 2019, 09:56:07 pm »
Another is mask their intentions with concepts that are hard to fault or impose a limit, such as "fair distribution of wealth". :)
Fairness is a term that gets an interesting reaction from people. With more than 7 billion people in the world, most people realise that there are currently more than 7 billion notions of what is fair. Yet when someone invokes "fairness" few people question exactly what that person means by fair. This allows people to get away with a wide variety of manipulative behaviours.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 05:23:13 pm by coppice »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1292 on: September 01, 2019, 12:34:29 pm »
Not gonna be that fast, first they will get nice jobs as diversity consultants, researchers or political advisors.
But bullshit is bullshit. People will run out of patience like in America or out of money like in France.

There are already signs of this happening, a people's patience for all this stuff is starting to wear off. Even if many (most?) aren't actually aware of the specifics of identity politics, they can feel the effects as it encroaches into things they care about, like their favorite movie franchise etc.
Anti-woke pushback is now starting to sell.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1293 on: September 01, 2019, 04:05:49 pm »
A real female actual engineer, who does real engineering in industry, responds to STU positive discrimination.



Edit: her first Youtube video was on the Damore fiasco two years ago
 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 04:38:06 pm by Howardlong »
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1294 on: September 01, 2019, 06:08:54 pm »
A real female actual engineer, who does real engineering in industry, responds to STU positive discrimination.


I can't find it now, but a couple of year ago I came across a really sad video on youtube by a black American woman who had just finished a science PhD. I can't remember which science, but it was one of the solid ones. She had proudly applied for a number of academic positions, and got serious interest from many institutions. However, nobody was interested in discussing her skills and knowledge. They were only interested in her sex and colour. She realised all they wanted was to fulfil a diversity quota from a marketplace with very few black female candidates, and she will spend her whole career having no idea what people really think of her. All this manipulation really screws things up for the talented.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1295 on: September 05, 2019, 09:15:54 am »
In Spain the socialist government have an incredible ability to twist things. They are against primary education segregated by sex, they want to get rid of only boys or only girls schools, so they passed a law that prohibits "discrimination by sex".

At the same time they want to increase female enrollment in STEM so the are proposing a law giving free tuition to females in STEM schools. To them what they call "positive discrimination" is no discrimination at all.

In fact, female enrollment in STEM has been declining. These SJW do not want women to have freedom to choose, they want women to conform to their stereotype of what women should be like.

Like Henry Ford who offered the model T in "any color you want as long as it is black".
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1296 on: September 05, 2019, 10:05:21 am »
Let's stage a photo of some blonde chick scribbling engineerese on a whiteboard to fight gender stereotypes :-+

What could possibly go wrong? :P
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1297 on: September 05, 2019, 04:19:42 pm »

I think this is related to this thread.

Title: Q. If machine learning is so smart, how come AI models are such racist, sexist homophobes? A. Humans really suck
Our prejudices rub off on our computer pals, sadly
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/05/ai_racist_sexist/
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1298 on: September 06, 2019, 11:03:09 am »
In Spain the socialist government have an incredible ability to twist things. They are against primary education segregated by sex, they want to get rid of only boys or only girls schools, so they passed a law that prohibits "discrimination by sex".

At the same time they want to increase female enrollment in STEM so the are proposing a law giving free tuition to females in STEM schools. To them what they call "positive discrimination" is no discrimination at all.
I thought tuition was free for everyone in Spain?

In fact, female enrollment in STEM has been declining. These SJW do not want women to have freedom to choose, they want women to conform to their stereotype of what women should be like.
Ultimately, the question of "why are women less interested in STEM now than in the past?" is the one that needs deep exploration. Because anyone with few working neurons understands that the problem isn't women failing to be admitted to STEM programs, it's that they're not applying to begin with, despite having demonstrably equivalent (or superior!) qualifications going in.

Trying to implement solutions without understanding the problem is what produces idiotic, counterproductive policies like this one.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1299 on: September 06, 2019, 11:20:25 am »
P.S. As an example of how this can be done well, my alma mater (and its president) has earned a reputation for innovation in higher education, including in graduation rates for minority (esp. black) STEM students. It'd long been observed that the graduation rate for black students was substantially lower than for other demographics. Rather than artificially admit more black students (who would then have been, by definition, not as well qualified), they worked to identify the barriers to graduation and then found ways to provide support. They're choosing the best candidates and then making sure they don't drop out due to non-academic reasons. (This university has also made itself highly desirable among STEM students, because even as undergraduates, they do the kind of hands-on lab research that at most universities isn't done until graduate or even doctorate programs.) The result has been so successful that it's now being replicated at other major universities: https://phys.org/news/2019-04-umbc-diverse-students-stem-successfully.html

(And apparently, in the 13 years since I graduated, my diploma from there has actually become a lot more valuable, in USA at least, as the university has become highly respected among HR people. In case it's not obvious, I really liked my time at that university, and think I made a great decision to go there. People joke that one meaning of "UMBC" is "U must be crazy" [to go there] because it has no social life -- not entirely true, but it's definitely not a party school or sports school, it's a school of mostly serious students. For me, that's a feature, not a bug. Its only world-class competitive team is the chess team.  :-+)
 


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