Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 111155 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1300 on: September 06, 2019, 12:17:33 pm »
Ultimately, the question of "why are women less interested in STEM now than in the past?" is the one that needs deep exploration. Because anyone with few working neurons understands that the problem isn't women failing to be admitted to STEM programs, it's that they're not applying to begin with, despite having demonstrably equivalent (or superior!) qualifications going in.
I don't that is a meaningful question, because women apply for different STEM subjects at very different rates. Women seem to love the life sciences. If the number of women applying for life science courses has fallen, that would be strange. Few women have ever shown much interest in physics and especially engineering. If the number of women applying for engineering has fallen, that wouldn't be surprising at all in a country with improving equality. Internationally, the freer women are to make their own choices, the fewer that apply for engineering.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1301 on: September 06, 2019, 12:46:55 pm »
Trying to implement solutions without understanding the problem is what produces idiotic, counterproductive policies like this one.
Why do you think that funding scholarships for young women is an idiotic and counterproductive policy?

P.S. As an example of how this can be done well, my alma mater (and its president) has earned a reputation for innovation in higher education, including in graduation rates for minority (esp. black) STEM students.
Okay, let's check that out.
Quote
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK36319/

The Undergraduate Scholars Program is named after the Meyerhoff family. They donated $500,000 to fund African American males from Baltimore City who were interested in studying science, engineering, or mathematics (SEM). That is how Dr. Hrabowski started this program in 1988. Today the program is entering its 14th year. After the first year, it was modified to include African American females. Today, our program is open to all high-achieving students.

Although the Meyerhoff undergraduate program was opened to all students in 1996, we still have 71 percent participation by African Americans, 14 percent by Asian students, and only 12 percent by Caucasians. UMBC has worked hard to make certain that the original focus would be maintained, in part by including activities that will be of interest mainly to students that care about underrepresentation in SEM fields.
Why do you think that funding scholarships for young black students is not an idiotic policy, then? :-//

Also, by their own admission, they go out of their way to discriminate towards black students without blatantly violating American law.
In such case I think nobody can find the increased graduation rate of minorities surprising.
It would be more interesting to see the results of a similar program which doesn't discriminate on race, either explicitly nor implicitly.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1302 on: September 06, 2019, 05:18:44 pm »
Ultimately, the question of "why are women less interested in STEM now than in the past?" is the one that needs deep exploration. Because anyone with few working neurons understands that the problem isn't women failing to be admitted to STEM programs, it's that they're not applying to begin with, despite having demonstrably equivalent (or superior!) qualifications going in.
I don't that is a meaningful question, because women apply for different STEM subjects at very different rates. Women seem to love the life sciences. If the number of women applying for life science courses has fallen, that would be strange. Few women have ever shown much interest in physics and especially engineering. If the number of women applying for engineering has fallen, that wouldn't be surprising at all in a country with improving equality. Internationally, the freer women are to make their own choices, the fewer that apply for engineering.
Well, just take for instance the fact that since the 1950’s, the percentage of women in computer science has gone down.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1303 on: September 06, 2019, 05:40:28 pm »
Trying to implement solutions without understanding the problem is what produces idiotic, counterproductive policies like this one.
1. Why do you think that funding scholarships for young women is an idiotic and counterproductive policy?

P.S. As an example of how this can be done well, my alma mater (and its president) has earned a reputation for innovation in higher education, including in graduation rates for minority (esp. black) STEM students.
Okay, let's check that out.
Quote
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK36319/

The Undergraduate Scholars Program is named after the Meyerhoff family. They donated $500,000 to fund African American males from Baltimore City who were interested in studying science, engineering, or mathematics (SEM). That is how Dr. Hrabowski started this program in 1988. Today the program is entering its 14th year. After the first year, it was modified to include African American females. Today, our program is open to all high-achieving students.

Although the Meyerhoff undergraduate program was opened to all students in 1996, we still have 71 percent participation by African Americans, 14 percent by Asian students, and only 12 percent by Caucasians. UMBC has worked hard to make certain that the original focus would be maintained, in part by including activities that will be of interest mainly to students that care about underrepresentation in SEM fields.
2. Why do you think that funding scholarships for young black students is not an idiotic policy, then? :-//

Also, by their own admission, they go out of their way to discriminate towards black students without blatantly violating American law.
In such case I think nobody can find the increased graduation rate of minorities surprising.
It would be more interesting to see the results of a similar program which doesn't discriminate on race, either explicitly nor implicitly.
(on my phone so replying without nesting the quotes, so I’ve numbered and bolded your points above)

1. I didn’t say that. The approach I think is stupid is the one in the video, namely of relaxing the admission requirements for women.

2. It’s not just a scholarship. As I said, it’s about removing barriers, like help in negotiating single-parent households, language barriers, etc.  I don’t remember what all they do, but it goes well beyond just financing.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1304 on: September 06, 2019, 05:49:34 pm »
Ultimately, the question of "why are women less interested in STEM now than in the past?" is the one that needs deep exploration. Because anyone with few working neurons understands that the problem isn't women failing to be admitted to STEM programs, it's that they're not applying to begin with, despite having demonstrably equivalent (or superior!) qualifications going in.
I don't that is a meaningful question, because women apply for different STEM subjects at very different rates. Women seem to love the life sciences. If the number of women applying for life science courses has fallen, that would be strange. Few women have ever shown much interest in physics and especially engineering. If the number of women applying for engineering has fallen, that wouldn't be surprising at all in a country with improving equality. Internationally, the freer women are to make their own choices, the fewer that apply for engineering.
Well, just take for instance the fact that since the 1950’s, the percentage of women in computer science has gone down.
That figure seems to be somewhat skewed by the changing nature of the term computer science. In the 1950s computer science still had its original meaning, and computer was still more often a job title than an electronic system. A lot of computers were women. It was typical female office work, considered "suitable" for women by the messed up standards of the time. Its hard to compare that to today, when computer science has a very different meaning, and women are not pigeon holed into specific roles they might not freely choose.
 

Online Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1305 on: September 06, 2019, 07:32:21 pm »
Why do you think that funding scholarships for young black students is not an idiotic policy, then? :-//

Don't know about them, but I don't care how a private person wants to discriminate based on gender or race ... when a public institutions does it, it becomes idiotic.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 07:35:59 pm by Marco »
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1306 on: September 07, 2019, 07:18:23 am »
That figure seems to be somewhat skewed by the changing nature of the term computer science. In the 1950s computer science still had its original meaning, and computer was still more often a job title than an electronic system. A lot of computers were women. It was typical female office work, considered "suitable" for women by the messed up standards of the time. Its hard to compare that to today, when computer science has a very different meaning, and women are not pigeon holed into specific roles they might not freely choose.
I hate people who conflate computer science with computer engineering.

Think: Dijkstra, Hoare, Knuth, Turing, Church, Shannon, Lamport, ...

Truth be told, I suspect there is more women in this field today than ever in the past. Save for Ada Lovelace who supposedly predicted many applications of computers 100 years before they were actually invented.

As for coding, I don't know what's the fuss about women. It's a blue collar job, nobody cares about female plumbers, why should I care about code-punchers >:D
And it's becoming increasingly complex and devouring people's entire lives. Women run away from things like that, no shit, Sherlock.

Don't know about them, but I don't care how a private person wants to discriminate based on gender or race ... when a public institutions does it, it becomes idiotic.
Try running a stipend program for gifted white boys and you will see how fare the tolerance for private discrimination goes.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1307 on: September 07, 2019, 03:46:59 pm »
That figure seems to be somewhat skewed by the changing nature of the term computer science. In the 1950s computer science still had its original meaning, and computer was still more often a job title than an electronic system. A lot of computers were women. It was typical female office work, considered "suitable" for women by the messed up standards of the time. Its hard to compare that to today, when computer science has a very different meaning, and women are not pigeon holed into specific roles they might not freely choose.
Put away that red herring, mmkay?

Yes, human computers were a thing, but that's not what we are talking about here. Human computers weren't considered computer scientists, and I expressly said "computer science".

Here's a little primer for you: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/02/19/women-built-tech-industry-then-they-were-pushed-out/
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1308 on: September 07, 2019, 03:49:16 pm »
I hate people who conflate computer science with computer engineering.
I said "computer science" and I meant computer science. Human computers are neither.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1309 on: September 07, 2019, 03:53:13 pm »
Don't know about them, but I don't care how a private person wants to discriminate based on gender or race ... when a public institutions does it, it becomes idiotic.
The program referred to above is intended to help disadvantaged minorities, but it is open to all applicants, and does not discriminate based on race.

You guys have all totally missed the point: by identifying barriers to graduation, and helping students overcome those barriers, they help minorities graduate. That doesn't mean giving preferential treatment to anyone, which was literally my entire point. Giving preferential treatment (for example, relaxed admissions) is a terrible idea. Offering help to those who need it (like mentoring) is an entirely different thing.

Or do you think that assistive technologies are also "discrimination"??
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1310 on: September 07, 2019, 06:22:05 pm »
I hate people who conflate computer science with computer engineering.
I said "computer science" and I meant computer science. Human computers are neither.
Perhaps you could give us your definition of computer science, as the term was used up to the 1970s?
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1311 on: September 07, 2019, 10:30:29 pm »
Don't know about them, but I don't care how a private person wants to discriminate based on gender or race ... when a public institutions does it, it becomes idiotic.
The program referred to above is intended to help disadvantaged minorities, but it is open to all applicants, and does not discriminate based on race.

You guys have all totally missed the point: by identifying barriers to graduation, and helping students overcome those barriers, they help minorities graduate. That doesn't mean giving preferential treatment to anyone, which was literally my entire point. Giving preferential treatment (for example, relaxed admissions) is a terrible idea. Offering help to those who need it (like mentoring) is an entirely different thing.

Or do you think that assistive technologies are also "discrimination"??
I didn't read the reference, but if it is the same in Brasil, where they have programs of assistance to socio-economic disadvantaged students, then it is a good thing. From what you are saying, they are using only extrinsic characteristics (access hurdles to transportation, living quarters, food, etc.) to give the scholarships/advantages, right?

If so, I think the word "minorities" is misplaced.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1312 on: September 07, 2019, 10:52:01 pm »
FFS https://decolonisestem.home.blog/

This makes me quite angry.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1313 on: September 08, 2019, 12:32:29 am »
FFS https://decolonisestem.home.blog/

This makes me quite angry.

Wow.  Just kill me now -- there's no place for me in this brave new world.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1314 on: September 08, 2019, 12:48:35 am »
This makes me quite angry.
Why?  All they are saying is that you should open your mind, and replace your brain with their chosen ideology!

Are you saying that ideological brainwashing and reprogramming is bad? ???
 

Offline sambonator

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1315 on: September 08, 2019, 02:06:56 am »
This makes me quite angry.
Why?  All they are saying is that you should open your mind, and replace your brain with their chosen ideology!

Are you saying that ideological brainwashing and reprogramming is bad? ???

We've all been brainwashed since childhood to follow whatever ideology is promulgated by your family, culture, schools and country. 

 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1316 on: September 08, 2019, 02:54:11 am »
Few women have ever shown much interest in physics and especially engineering. If the number of women applying for engineering has fallen, that wouldn't be surprising at all in a country with improving equality. Internationally, the freer women are to make their own choices, the fewer that apply for engineering.

This is known as the "Scandinavian result" - the more equal a society gets and the great the equality of opportunity, the less women chose STEM and in particular engineering. It is a very well researched result with multiple studies, it is not largely disputed by any reputable researcher in the field. The fact that it appears to be true is just unbelievable to the SJW's and those pushing for more women in engineering. Engineering is just not a field he majority of women are interested in, just like men aren't interested in nursing.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1317 on: September 08, 2019, 03:16:37 am »
If engineering did not typically offer better than average pay, I really doubt anyone other than the engineers would care if there were women in engineering. Most males enjoy being around women, it's not like we have some kind of conspiracy to keep them away.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1318 on: September 08, 2019, 06:45:39 am »
Few women have ever shown much interest in physics and especially engineering. If the number of women applying for engineering has fallen, that wouldn't be surprising at all in a country with improving equality. Internationally, the freer women are to make their own choices, the fewer that apply for engineering.

This is known as the "Scandinavian result" - the more equal a society gets and the great the equality of opportunity, the less women chose STEM and in particular engineering. It is a very well researched result with multiple studies, it is not largely disputed by any reputable researcher in the field. The fact that it appears to be true is just unbelievable to the SJW's and those pushing for more women in engineering. Engineering is just not a field he majority of women are interested in, just like men aren't interested in nursing.

Did you coin this term "Scandinavian result?"   Googling results in no hits relevant to the subject.
The results actually showed that differences observed rules out genetic/biological gender differences, and that upbringing plays a much larger role.
From:
https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-women-equality-preferences-20181018-story.html
But Hermle said the results do rule out a theory that suggests these personality traits are dictated entirely by genetics and evolutionary biology.
“We find enough variability across countries to indicate that people respond to the conditions in which they grow up,” he said.


 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1319 on: September 08, 2019, 07:39:40 am »
You guys have all totally missed the point: by identifying barriers to graduation, and helping students overcome those barriers, they help minorities graduate.
True.

That doesn't mean giving preferential treatment to anyone, which was literally my entire point.
False.

They are completely honest about using criteria of "community work" and "caring about underrepresentation of African minorities", among other means they don't disclose, in order to preserve the original focus of the program, which was "funding African American students in STEM".
Admission criteria aren't purely economic but ideological and the vast majority of participants are still black, as intended.

Don't muddy the water by suggesting that they identified some barriers which disproportionally affect certain minorities and that they try to remove those barriers for everyone to help said minorities. This is not what happens in the Meyerhoff program, it is not what usually happens in similar "diversity" programs elsewhere IME, and yet people often get confused and fall under impression that this is it.

If they tried to actually be honest and make it solely about economic factor as has been suggested by some, they would soon run out of money or need to downscale the program (black people are only like 13% of America IIRC) and could no longer claim "increased minority representation" because other groups would improve too. Or the difference wouldn't be as big as it is, at any rate.

Giving preferential treatment (for example, relaxed admissions) is a terrible idea.
Oh irony :P
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 07:44:28 am by magic »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1320 on: September 08, 2019, 09:15:42 am »
I must admit I do have some issues with some women lately. Five months ago a 28 yr foreign programmer joined our Agile team, she could have been a model the way she looks but she just does not do the work. She feels priviliged not to work as the rest of the team it seems. She drinks twice a day capuccino with her friends in the cafetaria for 45 minutes and takes about 6 smoking breaks of ten minutes and an hour of lunch. Exactly at the minute her shift is over she leaves the office going home.
For the rest of the time she disturbs other team members, questions are ok ofcourse but talking about non work related subjects the whole time.......
Her burndown in story points is less than 30% of the rest of the team members, in the past newbies scored around 50-60%.
Confronted with this she says she can't sit 8 hours just programming. I understand that but 6 should be possible  :o
SM and PO do nothing, are glad there is now a woman aboard.
Team members are now discussing if we also should take 45 minutes socializing breaks , do our hair and take fresh air breaks  :-DD
We now did a test aFter a coffee machine bet, for a week in turn every whole hour we go to the large cafetaria and count those not working with their laptop but socializing with coffee and divide in gender and agegroups (rough estimation). The outcome, from the non working 75% are younger women.
Luckily in other groups there are many women that do carry their job and perform equally (if not better). Just saying that IMO if you are artificially forcing persons into jobs that do not have their full interest, you probably will not get the most engaged people to do the job.
And I know this is an excemption and one case of many it does have a large influence on the group.
What I think myself but can not proof that if this person was a man in his fourties, he would not have passed his two month trial period and would have let go, I can not proof this but the whole team thinksthe same.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 09:18:08 am by Kjelt »
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1321 on: September 08, 2019, 09:24:45 am »
Here's a little primer for you: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/02/19/women-built-tech-industry-then-they-were-pushed-out/

Quote
Emma Goldberg was a Fox International Fellow at the University of Cambridge Centre for Gender Studies
Of course gender studies and zero industry experience.

Quote
Reuters revealed how AI recruiting technology tends to favor male candidates, since it is developed and tested using men’s resumes.
Reuters may have said so but it doesn't make it true.
Quote from: Reuters
That is because Amazon’s computer models were trained to vet applicants by observing patterns in resumes submitted to the company over a 10-year period. Most came from men, a reflection of male dominance across the tech industry.

In effect, Amazon’s system taught itself that male candidates were preferable. It penalized resumes that included the word “women’s,” as in “women’s chess club captain.” And it downgraded graduates of two all-women’s colleges, according to people familiar with the matter. They did not specify the names of the schools.
No, that's not how AI works. If the word "women" or the names of all-women colleges appear only in a small number of resumes, the AI would just consider it an irrelevant detail. Like black faces being ignored by AIs trained to recognize white faces.
IIRC (it's an old story) Amazon trained this AI using resumes of their applicants, scored by whether they got the job or not and by their corporate "performance metrics" if they did.
So active discrimination by the AI means that applicants from these particular colleges and those who talked about women on their resume had been assigned lower scores, implying they were getting rejected, poorly rated or fired by Amazon, before the AI project even started.

Quote
In an effort to demystify that art, software company System Development Corp. (SDC) contracted psychologists William Cannon and Dallis Perry to create an aptitude assessment for optimal programmers. Cannon and Perry interviewed 1,400 engineers — 1,200 of them men — and developed a “vocational interest scale,” a personality profile to predict the best potential programmers.

Unsurprisingly given their male-dominated test group, Cannon and Perry’s assessment disproportionately identified men as the ideal candidates for engineering jobs. In particular, the test tended to eliminate extroverts and people who have empathy for others. Cannon and Perry’s paper concluded that typical programmers “don’t like people,” forming today’s now pervasive stereotype of a nerdy, anti-social coder.
The author fails to explain why this allegedly pivotal study which turned the industry's gender balance upside down used 1200/1400 male subjects. I suspect that by the time this study was performed, the change to modern stereotypes had already happened.

Quote
Sixty percent of the respondents reported unwanted sexual advances in the office.
In related news, my second Google hit for "unwanted sexual advances" claims that "for the majority of women, unwanted sexual and romantic attention is a fact of life". :horse:

Okay, I'm getting tired. Done with it.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1322 on: September 08, 2019, 09:28:13 am »
If engineering did not typically offer better than average pay, I really doubt anyone other than the engineers would care if there were women in engineering.

Correct, but it's more than just money. Mining and construction jobs for instance can pay a lot more than engineering, but not a single SJW cares about equality of women in those fields or other "un-glamorous" fields like brick layering, plumbing, carpentry etc. Engineering is deemed to be kinda an intellectually "sexy" profession, and in today's tech driven society, one that is quite high profile.

Quote
Most males enjoy being around women, it's not like we have some kind of conspiracy to keep them away.

Yes, the "engineering patriarchy" excuse is just  :palm:
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1323 on: September 08, 2019, 09:31:51 am »
Did you coin this term "Scandinavian result?"   Googling results in no hits relevant to the subject.

Yes, I kinda did coin that term. Perhaps searching for "Scandinavian STEM results" or some such variant will give better results.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1324 on: September 08, 2019, 09:39:32 am »
Yes, the "engineering patriarchy" excuse is just  :palm:
It's sample bias. If you are the sort of woman Kjelt described (or I did before) then your experience is going to be very different ;)
This is the sort of women who write those articles.
 


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