Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 110696 times)

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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1325 on: September 08, 2019, 10:12:47 am »
I must admit I do have some issues with some women lately.
...
What I think myself but can not proof that if this person was a man in his fourties, he would not have passed his two month trial period and would have let go, I can not proof this but the whole team thinksthe same.

So why isn't she getting let go after the trial period?  It sounds like a problem with management bias. 
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1326 on: September 08, 2019, 10:23:32 am »
Few women have ever shown much interest in physics and especially engineering. If the number of women applying for engineering has fallen, that wouldn't be surprising at all in a country with improving equality. Internationally, the freer women are to make their own choices, the fewer that apply for engineering.

This is known as the "Scandinavian result" - the more equal a society gets and the great the equality of opportunity, the less women chose STEM and in particular engineering. It is a very well researched result with multiple studies, it is not largely disputed by any reputable researcher in the field. The fact that it appears to be true is just unbelievable to the SJW's and those pushing for more women in engineering. Engineering is just not a field he majority of women are interested in, just like men aren't interested in nursing.
Its not very meaningful to call this a Scandinavian result. Its takes the results from many parts of the world to see the trend. The Scandinavian results are really unsurprising to any engineer. We know whose faces glaze over when we try to talk about our work. I find the more interesting results are the large number of female engineers in societies that still heavily oppress women.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1327 on: September 08, 2019, 10:28:33 am »
If engineering did not typically offer better than average pay, I really doubt anyone other than the engineers would care if there were women in engineering. Most males enjoy being around women, it's not like we have some kind of conspiracy to keep them away.
You see this effect in places like the UK. In the UK engineering is a low status job, with indifferent pay, and poor prospects. That's why so many of us left the UK to work in countries where the engineering opportunities are better. You see far less drive to get women into engineering in the UK than in other developed countries, where engineering is a better career.
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1328 on: September 08, 2019, 10:41:49 am »
So why isn't she getting let go after the trial period?  It sounds like a problem with management bias.
:-// I really can't say. In my career I have seen many wrong things happening. Even that the brightest people are not promoted because they are indispensable on those positions, so the less performing colleagues are promoted because they are expendable.
Or you can only grow in salary if you go into the leadership track being teamleader or manager while the super technical experts are stuck in their lower salary scale.
In the end it is all perception.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1329 on: September 08, 2019, 10:47:57 am »
So why isn't she getting let go after the trial period?  It sounds like a problem with management bias.
:-// I really can't say. In my career I have seen many wrong things happening. Even that the brightest people are not promoted because they are indispensable on those positions, so the less performing colleagues are promoted because they are expendable.
Or you can only grow in salary if you go into the leadership track being teamleader or manager while the super technical experts are stuck in their lower salary scale.
In the end it is all perception.
Its not uncommon for the bulk of a team to think a person is about to get kicked out for incompetence, only to find them get promoted into a management position where they are just as incompetent.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1330 on: September 08, 2019, 12:08:23 pm »
Did you coin this term "Scandinavian result?"   

It’s more commonly referred to as the Gender-Equality Paradox.

Basically, the tenet is that the more egalitarian a country is in terms of gender, the more likely it is that women will choose more traditional and stereotypical gender career roles.

Of course this doesn’t sit well with some folk, so they invoke artificial affirmative action schemes to accept some less qualified people at the expense of others based on their gender.
 

Online fourfathom

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1331 on: September 08, 2019, 02:49:34 pm »
Did you coin this term "Scandinavian result?"   

It’s more commonly referred to as the Gender-Equality Paradox.

Basically, the tenet is that the more egalitarian a country is in terms of gender, the more likely it is that women will choose more traditional and stereotypical gender career roles.

Of course this doesn’t sit well with some folk, so they invoke artificial affirmative action schemes to accept some less qualified people at the expense of others based on their gender.

Or they argue that this wouldn't be the case if society hadn't forced little girls to play with dolls, while encouraging little boys to play with toy trucks.  You know, traditional gender roles being enforced by an oppressive patriarchal hierarchy.  There is probably *some* truth in that, but I don't know how much.  I still believe there is a very significant biological difference that influences women's choices and attitudes in life, probably caused by the fact that females are designed to bear the children of the species.  Obviously I can't prove any of this.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1332 on: September 08, 2019, 11:15:16 pm »
Did you coin this term "Scandinavian result?"   
It’s more commonly referred to as the Gender-Equality Paradox.

Ah, yes, that's what it's called on Wikipedia it seems.
Although it doesn't seem to reference other studies that have validated the results.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1333 on: September 08, 2019, 11:22:43 pm »
Or they argue that this wouldn't be the case if society hadn't forced little girls to play with dolls, while encouraging little boys to play with toy trucks.  You know, traditional gender roles being enforced by an oppressive patriarchal hierarchy.  There is probably *some* truth in that, but I don't know how much. I still believe there is a very significant biological difference that influences women's choices and attitudes in life, probably caused by the fact that females are designed to bear the children of the species.  Obviously I can't prove any of this.

Thought experiment:
Does anyone with a functioning (non ideologically possessed) brain think that men (on average) have the same intrinsic feeling towards child and human care that women do? And that it's just a social factor enforced by an oppressive patriarchal hierarchy or whatever?
If they don't think that then surely, by the same reasoning, it's not unreasonable to assume the same can apply to other human traits like "males like things" which helps explain why there are more males in engineering.
 


Offline ddavidebor

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1335 on: September 08, 2019, 11:37:33 pm »
Or they argue that this wouldn't be the case if society hadn't forced little girls to play with dolls, while encouraging little boys to play with toy trucks.  You know, traditional gender roles being enforced by an oppressive patriarchal hierarchy.  There is probably *some* truth in that, but I don't know how much. I still believe there is a very significant biological difference that influences women's choices and attitudes in life, probably caused by the fact that females are designed to bear the children of the species.  Obviously I can't prove any of this.

Thought experiment:
Does anyone with a functioning (non ideologically possessed) brain think that men (on average) have the same intrinsic feeling towards child and human care that women do? And that it's just a social factor enforced by an oppressive patriarchal hierarchy or whatever?
If they don't think that then surely, by the same reasoning, it's not unreasonable to assume the same can apply to other human traits like "males like things" which helps explain why there are more males in engineering.


Of course someone does. That's how statistical distributions work Dave.
Davide Bortolami,
Fermium LTD
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1336 on: September 09, 2019, 12:07:44 am »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1337 on: September 09, 2019, 12:24:21 am »
I hate people who conflate computer science with computer engineering.
I said "computer science" and I meant computer science. Human computers are neither.
Perhaps you could give us your definition of computer science, as the term was used up to the 1970s?
You know how to use google. Feel free to type in “computer science vs computer engineering”l especially since it wasn’t you who assumed I was confusing the two.

You guys have all totally missed the point: by identifying barriers to graduation, and helping students overcome those barriers, they help minorities graduate.
True.

That doesn't mean giving preferential treatment to anyone, which was literally my entire point.
False.
You’re saying I don’t know what my own point was? Uhh, no, babe.

They are completely honest about using criteria of "community work" and "caring about underrepresentation of African minorities", among other means they don't disclose, in order to preserve the original focus of the program, which was "funding African American students in STEM".
Admission criteria aren't purely economic but ideological and the vast majority of participants are still black, as intended.

Don't muddy the water by suggesting that they identified some barriers which disproportionally affect certain minorities and that they try to remove those barriers for everyone to help said minorities.
It is not “muddying the waters” to reiterate what my original statement was!

This is not what happens in the Meyerhoff program,
Except it is. And to reiterate, the Meyerhoff program is not the entirety of the effort.

it is not what usually happens in similar "diversity" programs elsewhere IME, and yet people often get confused and fall under impression that this is it.
I think the people you decry as “confused” aren’t actually the ones who are confused. The group of genuinely confused people includes you and most others in this circle-jerk of a thread.

If they tried to actually be honest and make it solely about economic factor as has been suggested by some, they would soon run out of money or need to downscale the program (black people are only like 13% of America IIRC) and could no longer claim "increased minority representation" because other groups would improve too. Or the difference wouldn't be as big as it is, at any rate.
No idea what you’re talking about here.

Giving preferential treatment (for example, relaxed admissions) is a terrible idea.
Oh irony :P
The university in question most certainly does not relax its admissions requirements for minorities. So what exactly do you see as ironic? (Or do you not actually know what irony means, which is often the case. Hint: if it was in Alanis’s song ‘Ironic’, it’s probably not an example of irony.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 01:08:27 am by tooki »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1338 on: September 09, 2019, 12:28:43 am »
I am considering deleting all my posts in this thread, to fully withdraw from it. I’d hoped to engage in some real discussion by bringing in some more factual angles, and examples of things done right. But no, on the contrary, I am appalled at the butt-hurt misogynistic, argumentative, gaslighting, condescending, borderline incel, right-wing circle-jerk that it continues to be. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you talk about pretty much everything in here. This thread is a monument to why women avoid STEM: if I were a woman, I wouldn’t want to work with any of you. (And as a man, I wouldn’t want to work with you either, for that matter.)
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1339 on: September 09, 2019, 12:45:16 am »
I hate people who conflate computer science with computer engineering.
I said "computer science" and I meant computer science. Human computers are neither.
Perhaps you could give us your definition of computer science, as the term was used up to the 1970s?
You know how to use google. Feel free to type in “computer science vs computer engineering”l especially since it wasn’t you who assumed I was confusing the two.
I don't need to look up these terms. I know what they mean today, and I know what they meant in the past. It seems like you only know their current meanings. From the 1800s up to the 1970s a computer science course covered much the same ground, and its very different from anything termed a computer science course today. A computer science course used to be something that served the needs of the human computers of its day, and only adapted very slowly to the modern world of electronic computers. That's why it changed very little until the 1970s.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 12:48:09 am by coppice »
 

Offline ddavidebor

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1340 on: September 09, 2019, 12:57:00 am »
But no, on the contrary, I am appalled at the butt-hurt misogynistic, argumentative, gaslighting, condescending, borderline incel, right-wing circle-jerk that it continues to be. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you talk about pretty much everything in here.

This thread is a monument to why women avoid STEM: if I were a woman, I wouldn’t want to work with any of you.

I quite agree with you.
Davide Bortolami,
Fermium LTD
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1341 on: September 09, 2019, 01:03:34 am »
I don't need to look up these terms. I know what they mean today, and I know what they meant in the past. It seems like you only know their current meanings. From the 1800s up to the 1970s a computer science course covered much the same ground, and its very different from anything termed a computer science course today. A computer science course used to be something that served the needs of the human computers of its day, and only adapted very slowly to the modern world of electronic computers. That's why it changed very little until the 1970s.
Do you really? You sure? Computer science didn’t even exist as a discipline until the 1940s. So when we talk about historical computer scientists, we are necessarily retroactively applying a modern name to what they were doing. There were no computer science programs at all, anywhere, until 1953. So you can’t talk about a comp sci program from the 1800s at all. It was, plain and simply, done as a branch of mathematics.

With that in mind, I believe your entire arguments about human computers are likely to be very incorrect. Yes, human computers existed. Yes, they were mostly women. But they weren’t computer scientists, and they’re not what computer historians are talking about when comparing historical rates of women in IT.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 01:05:52 am by tooki »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1342 on: September 09, 2019, 01:11:42 am »
I don't need to look up these terms. I know what they mean today, and I know what they meant in the past. It seems like you only know their current meanings. From the 1800s up to the 1970s a computer science course covered much the same ground, and its very different from anything termed a computer science course today. A computer science course used to be something that served the needs of the human computers of its day, and only adapted very slowly to the modern world of electronic computers. That's why it changed very little until the 1970s.
Do you really? You sure? Computer science didn’t even exist as a discipline until the 1940s. So when we talk about historical computer scientists, we are necessarily retroactively applying a modern name to what they were doing. There were no computer science programs at all, anywhere, until 1953. So you can’t talk about a comp sci program from the 1800s at all. It was, plain and simply, done as a branch of mathematics.

With that in mind, I believe your entire arguments about human computers are likely to be very incorrect. Yes, human computers existed. Yes, they were mostly women. But they weren’t computer scientists, and they’re not what computer historians are talking about when comparing historical rates of women in IT.
Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_science. Computer science is a term with a long history. Because it was something of a niche before the age of electronic computers, many universities made computer science studies a part of another department - typically statistics (probably because statistics was a major use of human computation) or maths.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1343 on: September 09, 2019, 01:22:07 am »
I am considering deleting all my posts in this thread, to fully withdraw from it. I’d hoped to engage in some real discussion by bringing in some more factual angles, and examples of things done right.

This is an engineering forum, we like to do facts here.
If your "facts" aren't being taken the way you want them to be then maybe, just maybe, they aren't the "facts" you think they are.

Quote
But no, on the contrary, I am appalled at the butt-hurt misogynistic, argumentative, gaslighting, condescending, borderline incel, right-wing circle-jerk that it continues to be. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you talk about pretty much everything in here

I'm appalled at your butt-hurt name calling  ::)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1344 on: September 09, 2019, 01:47:18 am »
I am considering deleting all my posts in this thread, to fully withdraw from it. I’d hoped to engage in some real discussion by bringing in some more factual angles, and examples of things done right.

This is an engineering forum, we like to do facts here.
If your "facts" aren't being taken the way you want them to be then maybe, just maybe, they aren't the "facts" you think they are.
No, if this forum (not just this thread) has reminded me of anything, it’s that engineers are just as susceptible to selective reasoning and cherry-picking as anyone else. The arrogance of “we’re engineers, we only believe in facts” has made you blind to the biases you carry. You don’t have to look hard on here to find people dismissing indisputable facts as “facts”-with-quotes. Or do you somehow think that only the most level-headed members of the forum participate on this thread?

At least you, Dave, make it clear that you are opinionated. But many members here hear your “we are engineers, engineers only do facts” chant and feel vindicated in their opinions, not realizing that their opinions, and facts, are totally different things.

[.
Quote
But no, on the contrary, I am appalled at the butt-hurt misogynistic, argumentative, gaslighting, condescending, borderline incel, right-wing circle-jerk that it continues to be. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you talk about pretty much everything in here

I'm appalled at your butt-hurt name calling  ::)
Why, because it’s all true? Is it even name-calling if it’s just stating facts? ;)

As someone whose work experience has mostly been in bridging the worlds of engineering and “normal humans”, I can assure you that the talk in this thread represents a lot of the worst of the engineering trades, using biases masked as “logic” to look down on everyone else. (In other words, “I’m not an asshole, I’m just an engineer” doesn’t really fly with Normal Humans™. That’s actually just self-justification for being an asshole. It’s actually possible to be an engineer and not an asshole, while still telling things like it is.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 01:50:50 am by tooki »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1345 on: September 09, 2019, 01:56:45 am »
No, if this forum (not just this thread) has reminded me of anything

Oh, you're still in this thread? Good to know you still care  ;D
Here have some  :popcorn:
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1346 on: September 09, 2019, 02:14:08 am »
Ah, good ol’ Dave “I DON’T LIKE BEING CALLED OUT SO I’M GONNA STICK FINGERS IN MY EARS AND GO ‘LA-LA-LA-LA-LA’ AND IGNORE THE POINT” reaction, nice! Great example to be setting for others! Really gonna impress the female STEM candidates that way!

I said I was considering it. It’s a lot of work in this long thread, so I think I’ll start by just adding it to the ignore list.

Don’t worry about the door hitting me on the way out. I know how to operate doors such as to not get injured by them, it’s a good life skill.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1347 on: September 09, 2019, 02:35:39 am »
It is not so surprising that men and women are different; anyone with eyes can see this.  It is also not surprising that men excel in some areas and women excel in others.  This is of course "a problem" for all the people who want to make men and women "the same".  They are not and will never be, no matter how many tests are altered, advantages are given, traits are labeled as toxic, and so on.  Honestly, what is the real point?  Just so women can live as if they "are men"?  Why is that prized?  That does not fulfill or make them happy either though they are sold the lie that it will.  Even on a practical level, no matter what your beliefs are, it just makes sense to let each sex do what it excels at most and thus work together as humans.  But, we don't want to work together now do we?  We want to "be the same".  Good luck with that.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1348 on: September 09, 2019, 03:35:55 am »
Ah, good ol’ Dave “I DON’T LIKE BEING CALLED OUT SO I’M GONNA STICK FINGERS IN MY EARS AND GO ‘LA-LA-LA-LA-LA’ AND IGNORE THE POINT” reaction, nice! Great example to be setting for others! Really gonna impress the female STEM candidates that way!
I said I was considering it. It’s a lot of work in this long thread, so I think I’ll start by just adding it to the ignore list.
Don’t worry about the door hitting me on the way out. I know how to operate doors such as to not get injured by them, it’s a good life skill.

It's also a good life skill to realise when you've played yourself...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1349 on: September 09, 2019, 03:46:43 am »
It is not so surprising that men and women are different; anyone with eyes can see this.  It is also not surprising that men excel in some areas and women excel in others.  This is of course "a problem" for all the people who want to make men and women "the same".  They are not and will never be, no matter how many tests are altered, advantages are given, traits are labeled as toxic, and so on.  Honestly, what is the real point?

To answer that question is to answer the entire rise of the modern social justice warrior movement, in particular over the last decade.
Ultimately a lot of it is about personal validation and appearing virtuous to others for various social and political gains. The modern twitter and Facebook "Like" mechanisms have fueled this to a huge degree.

Contrary to what Tooki thinks this thread is about, it's really a monument to the backlash of the practical pointlessless of the infestation of gender politics into society, and in our case, engineering.
 


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