Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 107597 times)

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Online Fungus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1450 on: September 16, 2019, 10:31:50 am »
In the UK, the retirement age used to be 60 for women and 65 for men, which was retarded, considering women generally live longer, than men.  :palm:

Women also didn't go down coal mines or do all those other jobs that turned you into a broken wreck by the age of 65.

The plan is to raise the retirement age and make it equal for both men and women.

Damn right. They want equality, give them equality.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1451 on: September 16, 2019, 12:50:08 pm »
So, all these women that want equal status with men in certain job positions, will they also accept the same retirement age to be eligible for a pension as men?

Does the retirement age differ between men and women in Australia?  It doesn't differ in Sweden.
I thought it was different for men vs women but apparently not.
https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/who-can-get-it
Maybe it used to be different in the past.
Anyway, if it is different in some places, then that's the cost of "equality".
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 12:51:40 pm by Circlotron »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1452 on: September 16, 2019, 01:46:24 pm »
Women also didn't go down coal mines or do all those other jobs that turned you into a broken wreck by the age of 65.

There was a discussion on various media channels last week discussing that kids' show Fireman Sam promoted outdated gender stereotypes. On LBC which is a talk radio station inviting callers for commentary, some on-the-ground firefighters called in ("firemen" is apparently no longer kosher) to explain that women simply weren't applying, largely because given the choice, women much prefer jobs where they simply don't get dirty.

There's also the supermarket problem in the UK: store staff, who are mainly female, compare themselves to higher-paid distribution centre workers, who are mainly male. The store workers have won various court and tribunal rulings for pay parity because the jobs are judged to be "work of equal value", a test used by the courts in these circumstances. However, this doesn't get away from the the fact that both women and men would prefer the store environment to working in the warehouse, but men are more willing than women to put up with the less conducive warehouse job in return for a cash consideration. That's just the labour market at work: I am sure that this action hasn't done diddly squat to balance the gender disparity in the warehouse.

 

Online Fungus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1453 on: September 16, 2019, 02:51:39 pm »
The store workers have won various court and tribunal rulings for pay parity because the jobs are judged to be "work of equal value", a test used by the courts in these circumstances.

Stupid system.

If store staff want distribution center pay they should apply for jobs in the distribution center.

If they want more than that they should take responsibility for their own pay (aka "self employed") or apply to be fishermen or oil rig workers or something.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1454 on: September 16, 2019, 03:51:56 pm »
Changing words such as firemen/man is also stupid, because the word women/woman contains the word men/man, with a prefix to denote female. Adding a different prefix, doesn't mean the person can't be female. I'm pretty sure the word chairman has been for both men and women, of committees, in the past. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about linguistics will chime in.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1455 on: September 16, 2019, 04:01:18 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1456 on: September 16, 2019, 04:26:26 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

I was in the local volunteer fire department about 30 years ago, and we were called "firefighters" even back then.  We had women in the force (my wife was one of them).  There are some terminology battles worth fighting, but I don't think this is one of them.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1457 on: September 16, 2019, 04:37:09 pm »
Women also didn't go down coal mines or do all those other jobs that turned you into a broken wreck by the age of 65.

There was a discussion on various media channels last week discussing that kids' show Fireman Sam promoted outdated gender stereotypes. On LBC which is a talk radio station inviting callers for commentary, some on-the-ground firefighters called in ("firemen" is apparently no longer kosher) to explain that women simply weren't applying, largely because given the choice, women much prefer jobs where they simply don't get dirty.

There's also the supermarket problem in the UK: store staff, who are mainly female, compare themselves to higher-paid distribution centre workers, who are mainly male. The store workers have won various court and tribunal rulings for pay parity because the jobs are judged to be "work of equal value", a test used by the courts in these circumstances. However, this doesn't get away from the the fact that both women and men would prefer the store environment to working in the warehouse, but men are more willing than women to put up with the less conducive warehouse job in return for a cash consideration. That's just the labour market at work: I am sure that this action hasn't done diddly squat to balance the gender disparity in the warehouse.
The supermarkets keep getting painted as trying to keep point of sale pay down over this issue. Obviously they don't want to pay any more than they have to, but they really can't afford to give in on this one. How are they going to recruit and keep people for warehouse jobs that suck, if they pay no more than more pleasant jobs in store?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1458 on: September 16, 2019, 04:38:15 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

I was in the local volunteer fire department about 30 years ago, and we were called "firefighters" even back then.  We had women in the force (my wife was one of them).  There are some terminology battles worth fighting, but I don't think this is one of them.
Firefighter sounds much too violent to be acceptable these days.  :)
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1459 on: September 16, 2019, 04:53:38 pm »
The store workers have won various court and tribunal rulings for pay parity because the jobs are judged to be "work of equal value", a test used by the courts in these circumstances.

This is the inevitable result of employment non-discrimination law. Either it's toothless, or it will boil down to the opinions of a couple of people in positions of state power, who at best are experts at p-hacking, forcing representation/remuneration to what they think it should be.

I oppose all private non discrimination laws, equal protection before the law is enough. This leaves enough room to prevent discrimination in public institutions and regulated monopolies. Go anguish about equal representation for government employees and contractors ... let normal people fight it out amongst themselves and in the court of public opinion, not the court of law.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1460 on: September 16, 2019, 05:04:28 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

Oh, but wait till AI'ism becomes a thing.
"Fireperson" will probably be considered offensive and discriminatory then. "Firething" then, maybe?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1461 on: September 16, 2019, 05:31:58 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

I was in the local volunteer fire department about 30 years ago, and we were called "firefighters" even back then.  We had women in the force (my wife was one of them).  There are some terminology battles worth fighting, but I don't think this is one of them.

What about "spokesman"? "Chairman" Lots of others where "fighter" doesn't work and "person" doesn't flow.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1462 on: September 16, 2019, 05:57:10 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

I was in the local volunteer fire department about 30 years ago, and we were called "firefighters" even back then.  We had women in the force (my wife was one of them).  There are some terminology battles worth fighting, but I don't think this is one of them.

What about "spokesman"? "Chairman" Lots of others where "fighter" doesn't work and "person" doesn't flow.

Note what I said earlier (now in bold).  The gender language battles are broad in scope. (notice the clever and demeaning double-entendre I just used?)  We can't use "woman" or "women" because they contain "man" and "men", thus subtly enforcing the male oppressor hierarchy.  At first this all seems so ridiculous that we assume nobody will take any of it seriously.  Then they do, and it pervades the culture and language.  Where will this all end up?  I have no idea.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1463 on: September 16, 2019, 06:49:52 pm »
Changing words such as firemen/man is also stupid, because the word women/woman contains the word men/man, with a prefix to denote female. Adding a different prefix, doesn't mean the person can't be female. I'm pretty sure t

OTOH "policeman" and "policewoman" have been in use for a long time and are accepted.

Edit: Probably depending on your country. "Police Officer" might be more common in the USA (from what I've seen in movies).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 06:55:45 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline FreddieChopin

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1464 on: September 16, 2019, 06:54:24 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

Yeah, righ. This 50-60 kg lady surely can safely and efficiently handle hydraulic jaws of life, cutters or spreaders. Casualties will definitely enjoy their time in car wreck while she struggles with the tool.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1465 on: September 16, 2019, 06:57:16 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

Yeah, righ. This 50-60 kg lady surely can safely and efficiently handle hydraulic jaws of life, cutters or spreaders. Casualties will definitely enjoy their time in car wreck while she struggles with the tool.

AFAIK a test of physical strength has always been a requisite for firefighters. It will still apply.
 

Offline FreddieChopin

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1466 on: September 16, 2019, 07:06:12 pm »
I've long agreed there. "Fireperson" sounds stupid, "fireman" rolls off the tongue and there's no reason a woman can't be a fireman.

Yeah, righ. This 50-60 kg lady surely can safely and efficiently handle hydraulic jaws of life, cutters or spreaders. Casualties will definitely enjoy their time in car wreck while she struggles with the tool.

AFAIK a test of physical strength has always been a requisite for firefighters. It will still apply.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, discrimination based on physical strength is just one step from discrimination based on skin colour  :-DD
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1467 on: September 16, 2019, 07:32:17 pm »
I wouldn't be so sure about that, discrimination based on physical strength is just one step from discrimination based on skin colour  :-DD

What next? Firefighters in wheelchairs?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1468 on: September 16, 2019, 07:39:12 pm »
This whole gender pronoun thing is hilarious. So much effort being used to chase a historic quirk of the English language. If the current English speaking countries spoke, say, Mandarin, where pronouns are not gendered, I wonder what windmill they would be tilting at instead.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1469 on: September 16, 2019, 07:44:51 pm »
(...)I wonder what windmill they would be tilting at instead.

Maybe you don't want to know. :-DD
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1470 on: September 16, 2019, 07:50:04 pm »
This whole gender pronoun thing is hilarious. So much effort being used to chase a historic quirk of the English language. If the current English speaking countries spoke, say, Mandarin, where pronouns are not gendered, I wonder what windmill they would be tilting at instead.

Or what if they spoke a language where everything is gendered?

(eg. most of the other languages)

 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1471 on: September 16, 2019, 08:10:51 pm »
This whole gender pronoun thing is hilarious. So much effort being used to chase a historic quirk of the English language. If the current English speaking countries spoke, say, Mandarin, where pronouns are not gendered, I wonder what windmill they would be tilting at instead.
Or what if they spoke a language where everything is gendered?
I've always suspected one of our sofas is trans-gender.  :)
(eg. most of the other languages)
Do most languages gender everything? I know its common among European languages, but is it the majority globally?
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1472 on: September 16, 2019, 09:08:07 pm »
AFAIK a test of physical strength has always been a requisite for firefighters. It will still apply.
Tests of physical strength are discriminatory against women and therefore illegal :D

I can easily prove it: just see how many men vs women pass them.
"Fit for the job" is just one of the old tricks that Patriarchy uses to keep women down.

You can laugh but there are idiots who legitimately believe it...
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1473 on: September 16, 2019, 09:31:19 pm »
AFAIK a test of physical strength has always been a requisite for firefighters. It will still apply.
Tests of physical strength are discriminatory against women and therefore illegal :D

I can easily prove it: just see how many men vs women pass them.
"Fit for the job" is just one of the old tricks that Patriarchy uses to keep women down.

You can laugh but there are idiots who legitimately believe it...
https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighting-101/articles/277551018-what-do-the-nfpa-1582-physical-fitness-requirements-say/
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1474 on: September 16, 2019, 09:58:38 pm »
 


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