Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 82540 times)

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Offline MyHeadHz

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1625 on: October 17, 2019, 03:44:54 am »
This thread uses she and he. I'm offended please close it or delete it.

Maybe we should just use "it"?



Maybe Stephen King was actually anticipating all this...

You jest, but I would actually prefer just using "it" for everyone, and doing away with he and she (or anything else).  "Ms" is nice for the same reason- it simplifies everything with no real down-sides for anyone.  Together, those tools would allow us to be lazy, respectful, and avoidant of painfully awkward situations with people we don't know very well-- and all while not having to act like we actually give a damn about others' families or personal problems.  Count me in.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 03:57:17 am by MyHeadHz »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1626 on: October 17, 2019, 07:37:02 pm »
MyHeadHz: Just speak Finnish.

I do understand that some people need their gender acknowledged, but that stuff belongs to real life face-to-face interaction (where it is negotiated via speech, facial expressions, posture, body language, and so on) -- not in technical discussions.
By imposing neopronoun use, non-socially-oriented people like myself are explicitly excluded, because we just don't grok those things.

I wonder why the small minority that requires neopronouns to interact with others, is so keen to exclude others; exacly opposite to what they want others to do to themselves?  Weird.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1627 on: October 17, 2019, 10:05:07 pm »
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness.

Respect is not demanded it is earned. Anyone who demands respect should be told bluntly to bugger off.

Same for understanding, you can't demand that someone "understand" you, you aren't that important.

Fairness, sure, here in Australia it's called a "fair go". But that doesn't extend to demanding something you haven't earned, like say an engineering job just because you are female and there are few females in engineering. Fairness is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

I personally believe everyone needs to be treated with respect.  But I would ask those who don't respect people until they earn it, how does one earn respect?  Who determines who has earned respect and who has not?   Is it on a person by person basis?  Or do we group entire races, nationalities, religions, lesbians, etc. and make judgments on the entire group as to whether they deserve any respect or not?   Wouldn't this allow things like Nazism to prosper as long as you believe "Jewish people have not earned our respect yet"?   

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1628 on: October 17, 2019, 10:22:40 pm »
Quote
I personally believe everyone needs to be treated with respect.

No, go look up the meaning of the word respect.
I think what you mean is courtesy.

Who determines who has earned respect and who has not?   Is it on a person by person basis?
Yes, of course.
In an engineering forum for example you earn respect by answering technical questions and providing quality technical posts etc. No one cares about your gender, race, or whatever. Heck, even complete *insert derogatory term here* are still respected because of their technical posts, in spit of other things they might say on other subjects.
You don't get given respect because you are *insert group identity or minority class here*

That being said, there are some cases were general respect based on group identity can be useful on the surface because that group has earned that reputation for whatever reason. But when it ultimately comes down to it, someone from that group doesn't have an automatic license to demand respect. If they do then they had better well be sure they have earned it personally because they'll get rightly called out for it.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 10:26:05 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1629 on: October 17, 2019, 10:37:45 pm »
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness.

Respect is not demanded it is earned. Anyone who demands respect should be told bluntly to bugger off.

Same for understanding, you can't demand that someone "understand" you, you aren't that important.

Fairness, sure, here in Australia it's called a "fair go". But that doesn't extend to demanding something you haven't earned, like say an engineering job just because you are female and there are few females in engineering. Fairness is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.


I personally believe everyone needs to be treated with respect.  But I would ask those who don't respect people until they earn it, how does one earn respect?  Who determines who has earned respect and who has not?   Is it on a person by person basis?  Or do we group entire races, nationalities, religions, lesbians, etc. and make judgments on the entire group as to whether they deserve any respect or not?   Wouldn't this allow things like Nazism to prosper as long as you believe "Jewish people have not earned our respect yet"?   

I by default treat those I meet with at least a modicum of respect as a baseline of interaction to begin with.  Whether my respect for them goes up or down from that point is entirely on them and their behavior & actions.  DEMANDS will likely cause my respect for them to decrease, while earning it will have the opposite effect.  This judgement is based on the individual rather than any group they may be a part of.  Want my respect?  It's easy.  Be a reasonably straight shooter, and don't be an ass.  And for what it's worth, if I find someone not worthy of my respect I will simply do my best to avoid interacting with them if possible; if doing so is unavoidable I will keep it to a minimum.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1630 on: October 17, 2019, 11:10:12 pm »
I by default treat those I meet with at least a modicum of respect as a baseline of interaction to begin with.

I don't know why people keep using the word respect in this way. When you meet someone for the first time and know nothing about then, you can't possibly have any "respect" for them.

There are two general meanings:
Quote
1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

Quote
2. have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights).

Ok, #2 might be it, but you still know nothing about the person, nothing about their wishes or their beliefs.
You could (and should) of course have respect for someone right to free speech without knowing them, but that's different.
And you could have "respect" for someones feelings I guess, but really what we are talking about here is common courtesy. Respect is the wrong word, and I don't think it should be thrown around lightly, especially given that it seems to have become a battle cry for the modern SJW movement.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 11:13:11 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline John B

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1631 on: October 17, 2019, 11:17:22 pm »
Respect is the wrong word, and I don't think it should be thrown around lightly, especially given that it seems to have become a battle cry for the modern SJW movement.

The word is deference.

Of course they do not use this word, because then the mask slips. One of the constant ideas throughout this political ideology is that to control language is to control people.
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1632 on: October 17, 2019, 11:25:25 pm »
Newspeak.
 

Offline rjp

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1633 on: October 18, 2019, 12:42:07 am »
Its rare Ill remember someones name, let alone the pet word they use for their genitalia, the whole concept is a tad lacking in perspective.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1634 on: October 18, 2019, 12:46:37 am »
...
There are two general meanings:
Quote
1. a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

Quote
2. have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights).

Ok, #2 might be it, but you still know nothing about the person, nothing about their wishes or their beliefs.
You could (and should) of course have respect for someone right to free speech without knowing them, but that's different.
And you could have "respect" for someones feelings I guess, but really what we are talking about here is common courtesy. Respect is the wrong word, and I don't think it should be thrown around lightly, especially given that it seems to have become a battle cry for the modern SJW movement.
...

https://www.quora.com/Does-everyone-inherently-deserve-respect-or-do-they-have-to-earn-it

To paraphrase from Quora:

"Respect has two different meanings:

Treating someone with basic courtesy and human decency.
Honoring and looking up to someone.
The former is neither earned nor given — it is an obligation that we all share, and that is rightly abrogated only when the other party has themself failed in it toward others.

The latter can only be earned."

In order to fulfill that human obligation to one-another, I think one needs to make an attempt at understanding them.  How else can you "have due regard for (someone's feelings, wishes, or rights)?"   

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1635 on: October 18, 2019, 12:51:52 am »
https://www.quora.com/Does-everyone-inherently-deserve-respect-or-do-they-have-to-earn-it
To paraphrase from Quora:
"Respect has two different meanings:
Treating someone with basic courtesy and human decency.

Then just use the word basic courtesy!
It's silly to confuse it with respect.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1636 on: October 18, 2019, 12:52:48 am »
Respect is the wrong word, and I don't think it should be thrown around lightly, especially given that it seems to have become a battle cry for the modern SJW movement.
The word is deference.
Of course they do not use this word, because then the mask slips. One of the constant ideas throughout this political ideology is that to control language is to control people.

Indeed.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1637 on: October 18, 2019, 07:19:04 am »
But I would ask those who don't respect people until they earn it, how does one earn respect?  Who determines who has earned respect and who has not?
I do, when I feel like doing so, and so does the next guy, when he feels like doing so.
Why is that such a difficult concept for collectivists to grasp? Even you are no exception.
Is it on a person by person basis?  Or do we group entire races, nationalities, religions, lesbians, etc. and make judgments on the entire group as to whether they deserve any respect or not?   Wouldn't this allow things like Nazism to prosper as long as you believe "Jewish people have not earned our respect yet"?   
The answers are: history supplies no shortage of evidence that both variants are possible and yes.

You're welcome :P
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1638 on: October 18, 2019, 08:00:13 am »
https://www.quora.com/Does-everyone-inherently-deserve-respect-or-do-they-have-to-earn-it
To paraphrase from Quora:
"Respect has two different meanings:
Treating someone with basic courtesy and human decency.

Then just use the word basic courtesy!
It's silly to confuse it with respect.

Ok so for clarity:

I think this "outrage culture" has always been there.  The Internet, social media and forums like this allow us to read/hear/watch more of it, and our own biases/opinions get amplified by it.

What's new is the victimhood culture, in which people clamour to seem more disadvantaged, more oppressed, more helpless than each other. It's antithetical to helping the world in any meaningful way.

I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness.  With so many cultures, beliefs, languages, etc. it gets quite complicated.

I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.  With so many cultures, beliefs, languages, etc. it gets quite complicated.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1639 on: October 18, 2019, 08:04:44 am »
windsmurf:
Quote
I personally believe everyone needs to be treated with respect.
That's great. Even if they do not respect* you? You bring up the subject of Jews vs. Nazis. Should Jews respect** Nazi opinions and world views?
Quote
But I would ask those who don't respect people until they earn it, how does one earn respect?
You do know that you can have opinions on people and judge*** them in accordance with your own personal beliefs? I won't respect** some crazy nutter who wants to bomb some place and take over the world because some book said he ought to. The same goes for Nazis, KKK, Mugabe or any number of single people or groups who subscribe to particular world views, that are by my world view abhorrent or wrong.
Quote
Who determines who has earned respect and who has not?
You. Me. Respect** is not a summarizing and universal thing. Someone has the respect of people A, B and C, but is despised by D, E and F. It's your right to disagree with someone.
Quote
Is it on a person by person basis?
Yes. That said, if someone explicitly tells me that he subscribes to a philosophy that says that states that, due to some of my characteristics, be they origins, world view, sexual orientation or any other characteristic I should be killed or shunned then I don't see any reason to show any bit of respect** (depending on the specifics this may include respect*) to him or his world view.
Quote
Or do we group entire races, nationalities, religions, lesbians, etc. and make judgments on the entire group as to whether they deserve any respect or not?
Nope, just philosophies and goals. An individual does not choose his race, nationality or orientation. An individual does choose his affiliation with a philosophical stance. If said stance mandates, say, stoning gay people, stoning women if they are not virgins before their wedding night, then yes, I'm not inclined respect** said philosophy.
Quote
Wouldn't this allow things like Nazism to prosper as long as you believe "Jewish people have not earned our respect yet"?
So are you saying that Nazis as a group do not have your respect*? They don't have mine, certainly.

* - respect in the context of "Treating someone with basic courtesy and human decency."
** - respect in the context of "Honoring and/or looking up to someone."
*** - judge in this context is used in terms of assigning your personal
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Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1640 on: October 18, 2019, 08:08:13 am »
windsmurf:
Quote
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.
Define regard. I am ready to listen to any world view, feelings, wishes. But I may find them abhorrent and not worthy of respect in any form.
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1641 on: October 18, 2019, 08:14:47 am »
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.  With so many cultures, beliefs, languages, etc. it gets quite complicated.
Your country already reached a point where it's impossible.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1642 on: October 18, 2019, 08:22:11 am »
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.  With so many cultures, beliefs, languages, etc. it gets quite complicated.
Your country already reached a point where it's impossible.

Do you have a solution?  What could the U.S. have done better in this regard?
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1643 on: October 18, 2019, 08:23:47 am »
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1644 on: October 18, 2019, 08:39:46 am »
windsmurf:
Quote
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.
Define regard. I am ready to listen to any world view, feelings, wishes. But I may find them abhorrent and not worthy of respect in any form.

"Regard" in this respect is "consideration."

Of course some ideas are quite abhorrent and not worthy of respect, especially if such ideas involve treating other human beings without regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1645 on: October 18, 2019, 09:14:39 am »
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.  With so many cultures, beliefs, languages, etc. it gets quite complicated.

No, it's not complicated. No one should get special privilege. You can demand anything you like, but that's rude, so don't be surprised when people just ignore you or tell you to bugger off.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1646 on: October 18, 2019, 09:38:41 am »
windsmurf:
Quote
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.
Define regard. I am ready to listen to any world view, feelings, wishes. But I may find them abhorrent and not worthy of respect in any form.

"Regard" in this respect is "consideration."

Of course some ideas are quite abhorrent and not worthy of respect, especially if such ideas involve treating other human beings without regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.
Regards for feelings and wishes, well, it's about the level and the expectations of the other party. I have no problem taking into considerations someones feelings, but they shouldn't expect me to learn a new language (personal pronouns for 70 genders), abolish science because it did not involve enough minorities (rabid SJW), that I should give up my dog because according to his philosophy it's unclean or similar BS. There's treating someone equally and there's bending over backwards to satisfy a few ppm of the population.
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1647 on: October 18, 2019, 10:17:19 am »
I think it all comes down to people demanding understanding, respect, and fairness due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.  With so many cultures, beliefs, languages, etc. it gets quite complicated.

No, it's not complicated. No one should get special privilege. You can demand anything you like, but that's rude, so don't be surprised when people just ignore you or tell you to bugger off.

First, its wrong to group those who have progressive views into a single group you call "SJW" which ignores the varied opinions and views and dehumanizes them.  Its just like calling all conservatives "Nazi's." 

Most are not asking for any "special privilege", rather they're asking to be treated with due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.

I don't think its rude for anyone to ask for that.  Demand may not be the right word for it, but when their feelings, wishes, or rights have been disregarded for so long, perhaps they have justification to demand it.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 10:26:19 am by windsmurf »
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1648 on: October 18, 2019, 11:19:45 am »
Do you have a solution?  What could the U.S. have done better in this regard?
Yes, buy ammunition. Oughta have listened to Joe McCarthy and Yuri Bezmenov.

You do not get to cry #NotAllSJWs when you behave yourself like all of them. You come here to defend all the same platitudes which are being used to push men into women's sports and bathrooms or women into men's industries. And they are false platitudes at that. People will always have their feelings hurt and wishes unfulfilled. The point of SJWs has never been about satisfying everybody or even as many people as possible, the invariable point of SJWs is to satisfy ever smaller minorities at the cost of the majority. That's what actually happens in practice, every time. And there is no conceivable universe in which this is a good idea.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1649 on: October 18, 2019, 11:43:32 am »
Do you have a solution?  What could the U.S. have done better in this regard?
Yes, buy ammunition. Oughta have listened to Joe McCarthy and Yuri Bezmenov.

You do not get to cry #NotAllSJWs when you behave yourself like all of them. You come here to defend all the same platitudes which are being used to push men into women's sports and bathrooms or women into men's industries. And they are false platitudes at that. People will always have their feelings hurt and wishes unfulfilled. The point of SJWs has never been about satisfying everybody or even as many people as possible, the invariable point of SJWs is to satisfy ever smaller minorities at the cost of the majority. That's what actually happens in practice, every time. And there is no conceivable universe in which this is a good idea.
No. The point is to pursue a never ending list of grievances, so the people who have made a career from grievance have a secure career. Movements do not disband when they reach their goals. They either morph to a new meaningful goal - e.g. people trying to save an animal from extinction have no problems finding new animals to support when they are successful with their first - or their goals move from the reasonable to the unreasonable. Movements usually take decades to achieve their goals, so lots of people have their entire lives invested in them by the time they succeed. Do you think they are going to just give up pushing for something to maintain their income and sense of self worth?

I think its no coincidence that we saw the craziness rapidly escalate around the time gay marriage was legalised. This was the last of the really solid "stop treating people badly, just because they are not like you" goals being achieved. Now the activists are left with rather nebulous goals that you have to be part of the cult to see as solid, and the cultists have to shout down opponents because there are no robust arguments they can use. They have been really good at getting the cultists to buy into ideas like "Racism and sexism are always present. Our job is to identify and complain about it.", because if widely accepted there will be good jobs for activists forever.
 
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