Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 82659 times)

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Offline jhpadjustable

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1725 on: October 22, 2019, 06:55:53 pm »
Do not ask people what they think and believe, but measure how they are performing; including asking how happy/unhappy they are with their work and workplace culture, without asking what kind of workplace culture they'd prefer or what they'd like to change (because those do not matter, as there is no reason to believe their preferences actually lead to a better workplace).
I disagree on the last point. As a supervisor, you're collecting information. By all means do ask them about their preferences in workplace culture and what they would like to change, subject to the mutual understanding of reasonable expectations for a for-profit enterprise, that ponies may not be forthcoming and unicorns may have been EOLed.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Arduino, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
 
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Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1726 on: October 23, 2019, 12:37:30 am »
You'd think in a field like engeneering you would use/employ the right   p e o p l e  insted of trying to make sure there is some sort of "equal representation" of whatever grouping of people exists.
But this illustrates one of the legitimate problems that can exist -- choosing the "right" people when we do all have unconscious (or conscious) biases.  We make assumptions about people's capabilities based on all sorts of factors, and we may not get it right.  This can create a barrier to entry.
Yet, that has nothing specifically to do with gender or temperament, as it happens due to any personal attributes, physical or mental.

Personally, I've seen it happen especially obviously in a female-dominated office environment, where the administration/management was an instigator in forming cliques, which had a severe impact on the operation of said department.  Even the gender ombudsman stated, repeatedly, that the leadership of that department was sub-par; and it was at that point all female.  (It wasn't anti-male; just cliqued to the hilt, with no assigned responsibilities but changing by the whim or the leadership; and with little consideration to actual performance of anyone, instead being based purely on social interactions.)

So, what positive effect should one expect by enforcing "female-preferred" workplace culture?  It seems that would just swap one set of "implicit biases" for another, making no progress towards any kind of positive results.  Replacing crap with dung, in other words.

Yes, but to the people behind Critical Gender/Race theory, the "implicit biases" of the "oppressed" groups are all to the good, the "implicit biases" of the "oppressing" groups are all to the bad. And because "Objectivity" is a 'social construct' created by the "oppressing" group, it can be dismissed without thought, all that matters is the mental comfort of the individual, after all if it feels right, it is right, right...?
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1727 on: October 23, 2019, 04:57:55 am »
Do not ask people what they think and believe, but measure how they are performing; including asking how happy/unhappy they are with their work and workplace culture, without asking what kind of workplace culture they'd prefer or what they'd like to change (because those do not matter, as there is no reason to believe their preferences actually lead to a better workplace).
I disagree on the last point. As a supervisor, you're collecting information. By all means do ask them about their preferences in workplace culture and what they would like to change, subject to the mutual understanding of reasonable expectations for a for-profit enterprise, that ponies may not be forthcoming and unicorns may have been EOLed.
Good point: ideas on how the workplace culture should change are informative, and should help decide how the culture should be changed, or if it needs changing.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1728 on: October 23, 2019, 08:17:32 am »
You'd think in a field like engeneering you would use/employ the right   p e o p l e  insted of trying to make sure there is some sort of "equal representation" of whatever grouping of people exists.

But this illustrates one of the legitimate problems that can exist -- choosing the "right" people when we do all have unconscious (or conscious) biases. 

I couldn't resist, Snake has you covered:


 
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Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1729 on: October 24, 2019, 08:14:54 am »
Not strictly Gender Politics

https://www.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/public/socialstudies/pubdocs/Math%20SDS%20ES%20Framework.pdf

Quote
Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?
● Who holds power in a mathematical classroom?
● Is there a place for power and authority in the math classroom?
● Who gets to say if an answer is right?
● What is the process for verifying the truth?
● Who is Smart? Who is not Smart?
● Can you recognize and name oppressive mathematical practices in your experience?
● Why/how does data-driven processes prevent liberation?
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1730 on: October 24, 2019, 08:29:15 am »
Finally the western math conspiracy to oppress, control and marginalize is exposed.   

Hold on, gotta go turn off the :bullshit: alarms


   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline SerieZ

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1731 on: October 24, 2019, 10:09:29 am »
1+1=2 Implying only 2 Genders?  >:( >:( >:(

Math is for old white menfascists!
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1732 on: October 24, 2019, 12:55:37 pm »
Finally! Rise up to the oppressive numbers, where opinions don't count. Finally, 2+2 can be anything you want.

FFS, how can anyone cook up something so idiotic, I will never know.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Online bd139

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1733 on: October 24, 2019, 01:03:21 pm »
It all comes down to the fact that when you're a worthless piece of shit, all you can do is manufacture something you can create some noise about.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1734 on: October 24, 2019, 01:39:34 pm »
Note that among the ones who have problems with the oppressive maths, the huge majority have absolutely NO problem with that when it comes to handling their money. Suddenly maths become a lot less oppressive, and exact values are expected.

Just ask them if 2+2 dollars can be anything you want. If those are dollars from their own pocket. ::)
 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1735 on: October 24, 2019, 02:40:26 pm »
Finally! Rise up to the oppressive numbers, where opinions don't count. Finally, 2+2 can be anything you want.
But it literally can.
When a white man does it, it's called finite field theory.
When a girl of color does it, she gets an F in maths.
Where is justice?
 

Online Zucca

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1736 on: October 24, 2019, 03:04:39 pm »
70 Pages about gender politics here? Incredible.
Can't know what you don't love. St. Augustine
Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1737 on: October 24, 2019, 03:06:07 pm »
Finally! Rise up to the oppressive numbers, where opinions don't count. Finally, 2+2 can be anything you want.
But it literally can.
When a white man does it, it's called finite field theory.
When a girl of color does it, she gets an F in maths.
Where is justice?

 :-DD

Oh, and we have variants of that with quantum physics too.
When a particle can just be anywhere or have any state, it's fundamentally non-oppressive. Then an observer comes, and it gets all oppressive again. This is clearly the observer's fault. The particles are partying and minding their own business, when suddenly they get all observed. Nasty.

I wonder if it's been proven that a white male observer would make it even worse for particles.

 :-DD
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1738 on: October 24, 2019, 05:36:17 pm »
Quote
Oh, and we have variants of that with quantum physics too.

...in ways you might not expect .....

https://thriveglobal.com/stories/cultural-quantum-mechanics/     :popcorn:


Quote
Meritocracy vs. equity

Meritocracy is a popular belief system, especially within the tech sector, that suggests rewards (such as opportunities, compensation and recognition) are directly tied to ability and performance. Equity is a growing focus in corporate America too — and a focus in my current role. Focusing on equity means that we are taking into account barriers, oppressions and opportunities that people have encountered then dedicating extra effort to bringing people up to a level playing field.

A colleague asked me recently how we can reconcile the narrative that these two concepts are mutually exclusive — that we need to either focus on rewarding the best and brightest or focus on creating equitable business practices. I believe the answer to this lies directly in this quantum mechanics metaphor. Not only is there space for both belief systems to exist at the same time, but it is necessary to honor both perspectives in order to bring everyone along. And, of course, the punchline is that in focusing on removing barriers and creating opportunities for those who have experienced oppressions, we do end up seeing better business results and celebrating highly skilled teams. Meritocracy and equity are the wave and particle of workplace values.

Once I started recognizing the dual nature of most problems and experiences, I started seeing and embracing those opposites everywhere. What used to cause me cognitive dissonance now provides new inspiration for creative solutions. We will always have our different experiences and perspectives, and embracing those differences will help us see the light (pun intended).
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1739 on: October 24, 2019, 05:40:00 pm »
Ahah, thanks. While having a good laugh, I knew I was on to something...
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1740 on: October 24, 2019, 05:48:44 pm »
If we are gonna start using metaphors...
I prefer using one with icecubes and water in the same glass.
The ice will eventually melt, the water will evaporate and all you have is an empty glass.
The trick is for this to take long enough so you have moved onto your next job by then ....  :-+
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1741 on: October 24, 2019, 09:22:20 pm »
Quote
Once I started recognizing the dual nature of most problems and experiences, I started seeing and embracing those opposites everywhere. What used to cause me cognitive dissonance now provides new inspiration for creative solutions.
To be honest, this sounds to me like using psychosis as a source for creativity.  It is not rare among visual artists.
 

Offline Deodand2014

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1742 on: October 25, 2019, 12:30:52 am »
A couple of takes from YouTube on the issue at hand



 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1743 on: October 25, 2019, 12:51:25 am »
A couple of takes from YouTube on the issue at hand

After watching that video I feel this forum is biased and unfair to new users based on the post count being displayed. Higher post counts may make new users feel intimidated and afraid. I think the post counts of all the members be averaged across all members so we are all on a more equal footing.

We all should also be assigned poor unimportant country flags across the board so other countries are represented on an equal footing. There is an unfair trend towards North America and European states here which casts a shadow of cultural bias.

There is much work to do here as far a fairness is concerned.
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1744 on: October 25, 2019, 01:03:01 am »
Quote
A couple of takes from YouTube on the issue at hand

I 'm still recuperating from the Math Ethics Studies framework I read last night. 
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1745 on: October 25, 2019, 02:40:57 am »
After watching that video I feel this forum is biased and unfair to new users based on the post count being displayed. Higher post counts may make new users feel intimidated and afraid. I think the post counts of all the members be averaged across all members so we are all on a more equal footing.

OMG, I didn't realise!, this is so harmful!
I'm going to follow in the footsteps of the University of Technology in Sydney and implement an initial 100 post count "hand up" for all new females joining the forum.
I will form a diverse committee (excluding white males) to evaluate the proposal of removing all posts limits long term.
 
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Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1746 on: October 25, 2019, 05:27:15 am »
There is an unfair trend towards North America and European states here which casts a shadow of cultural bias.
America and Europe? How about Australia? Less than 0.5% of global population and I see their posts all over the forum. :scared:

We should start with banning a few of the worst offenders. ;D
 

Offline Canis Dirus Leidy

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1747 on: October 27, 2019, 07:24:05 am »
Not strictly Gender Politics
https://www.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/public/socialstudies/pubdocs/Math%20SDS%20ES%20Framework.pdf
Well… These guys put all four paws into the trap, despite comrade Lunacharsky warned a hundredth years ago:
Quote
     Второй вопрос -- вопрос о том, чему учить и как учить. Вы знаете, что Владимир Ильич посвятил именно этому вопросу свою блестящую и бездонно-глубокую речь к комсомольцам. В общих принципиальных контурах он на этот вопрос с исчерпывающей ясностью ответил. Коммунист часто останавливается с содроганием перед той наукой, в которую он собирается нырнуть, перед тем кубком знаний, который ему своею рукой протягивает "господин профессор", ибо он не знает, не ныряет ли он в омут, и не знает, не протягивают ли ему яду? Он говорит: я марксист, и я знаю, что каждая идеология есть отражение классового бытия. А наука -- идеология? Да. Какой класс ее создал? Буржуазно-помещичий. Значит, эта наука мне не нужна, она мне даже враждебна. Но все же идеология мне нужна, мне нужна наука... Какая же мне наука нужна? Та, которая выражает мое бытие, пролетарское. Значит, мне нужна пролетарская наука! Где она? Нет ее, за исключением марксизма... В остальных областях ее нет. Как же быть? Надо ее придумать. Тогда, значит, надо не учиться, а сразу учить, надо не искать науки, которую нужно одолеть, а создать свою собственную. Но пока ведь мы ровным счетом ничего не знаем. Откуда же мы приобретем знания? Из бытия нашего, из нутра нашего, от себя самих. И когда нам самим покажется, что жидковата наша пролетарская наука, то стоит только поэнергичнее поплевывать на эти ученые лысины и говорить: ну, вы там, буржуи, со всеми вашими сокровищами, что вы стоите перед одним росчерком моего пролетарского пера, -- раззудись, плечо, размахнись, рука! Я такую пролетарскую науку выведу, что в одной брошюре в 33 страницы дам разрешение всех вопросов бытия.
       Вот такая возможность страшно пугала Владимира Ильича…
       … А вот обратная опасность: оттолкнуть от себя буржуазную науку и ввергнуться целиком в ересь комчванства, -- эта опасность огромна. А это создало бы ту атмосферу верхоглядства, дилетантства, всяких фантасмагорических легковесных выдумок, которые могли бы в корне испортить все дело. Вот почему Владимир Ильич говорил комсомольцам: учись без страха! Тут ты получишь огромный и нужный для тебя материал, и не бойся, что при этом ты "оторвешься от марксизма". Нутро у тебя здоровое, и ты прекрасно разберешься потом, где тебе нужное, а где ненужное. Черпай из того, что тебе пришлось зачерпнуть из моря так называемого всечеловеческого знания, которое в значительной мере было детерминировано до сих пор буржуазным миром. И когда ты это сделаешь, тогда ты детерминируешь науку своей пролетарской мыслью и придашь ей совершенно новое направление и небывалый размах.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1748 on: October 27, 2019, 07:29:37 am »
A couple of takes from YouTube on the issue at hand





When science and mathematics focuses on the natural world, aims to explain the natural world, uses testable ideas, relies on evidence, involves their respective community to test and scrutinize other's theories and leads to ongoing research start being put on cause because of social thinking that doesn't regard what goes against their own though and believe, then...

If this is the world we are turning, please bomb the sh#t out of this planet...
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1749 on: October 27, 2019, 08:45:41 am »
Not strictly Gender Politics
https://www.k12.wa.us/sites/default/files/public/socialstudies/pubdocs/Math%20SDS%20ES%20Framework.pdf
Well… These guys put all four paws into the trap, despite comrade Lunacharsky warned a hundredth years ago:
Quote
     Второй вопрос -- вопрос о том, чему учить и как учить. Вы знаете, что Владимир Ильич посвятил именно этому вопросу свою блестящую и бездонно-глубокую речь к комсомольцам. В общих принципиальных контурах он на этот вопрос с исчерпывающей ясностью ответил. Коммунист часто останавливается с содроганием перед той наукой, в которую он собирается нырнуть, перед тем кубком знаний, который ему своею рукой протягивает "господин профессор", ибо он не знает, не ныряет ли он в омут, и не знает, не протягивают ли ему яду? Он говорит: я марксист, и я знаю, что каждая идеология есть отражение классового бытия. А наука -- идеология? Да. Какой класс ее создал? Буржуазно-помещичий. Значит, эта наука мне не нужна, она мне даже враждебна. Но все же идеология мне нужна, мне нужна наука... Какая же мне наука нужна? Та, которая выражает мое бытие, пролетарское. Значит, мне нужна пролетарская наука! Где она? Нет ее, за исключением марксизма... В остальных областях ее нет. Как же быть? Надо ее придумать. Тогда, значит, надо не учиться, а сразу учить, надо не искать науки, которую нужно одолеть, а создать свою собственную. Но пока ведь мы ровным счетом ничего не знаем. Откуда же мы приобретем знания? Из бытия нашего, из нутра нашего, от себя самих. И когда нам самим покажется, что жидковата наша пролетарская наука, то стоит только поэнергичнее поплевывать на эти ученые лысины и говорить: ну, вы там, буржуи, со всеми вашими сокровищами, что вы стоите перед одним росчерком моего пролетарского пера, -- раззудись, плечо, размахнись, рука! Я такую пролетарскую науку выведу, что в одной брошюре в 33 страницы дам разрешение всех вопросов бытия.
       Вот такая возможность страшно пугала Владимира Ильича…
       … А вот обратная опасность: оттолкнуть от себя буржуазную науку и ввергнуться целиком в ересь комчванства, -- эта опасность огромна. А это создало бы ту атмосферу верхоглядства, дилетантства, всяких фантасмагорических легковесных выдумок, которые могли бы в корне испортить все дело. Вот почему Владимир Ильич говорил комсомольцам: учись без страха! Тут ты получишь огромный и нужный для тебя материал, и не бойся, что при этом ты "оторвешься от марксизма". Нутро у тебя здоровое, и ты прекрасно разберешься потом, где тебе нужное, а где ненужное. Черпай из того, что тебе пришлось зачерпнуть из моря так называемого всечеловеческого знания, которое в значительной мере было детерминировано до сих пор буржуазным миром. И когда ты это сделаешь, тогда ты детерминируешь науку своей пролетарской мыслью и придашь ей совершенно новое направление и небывалый размах.

Aha!! ...science is an ideology and every ideology is a reflection of the class that created it. Those damn bourgeouis landowners!!!
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 


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