Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 80495 times)

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Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #175 on: August 04, 2018, 05:53:48 pm »
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

I’d also ask in the context of the discussion of the gender gap in STEM, does it matter, as long as there is equality of opportunity and nobody’s being oppressed?
 

Offline b_force

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #176 on: August 04, 2018, 06:23:35 pm »
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

I’d also ask in the context of the discussion of the gender gap in STEM, does it matter, as long as there is equality of opportunity and nobody’s being oppressed?
I don't follow?
Of course it doesn't matter.
It's just a more in depth discussion about the subject.  :-//
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #177 on: August 04, 2018, 06:40:40 pm »
I guess the whole point of my explanation, is that if we want to understand the so called "preferences" (and if there are any or not), it needs to be seen from this far back in history.
I agree.

Quote
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.
 
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Offline b_force

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #178 on: August 04, 2018, 07:04:16 pm »
I guess the whole point of my explanation, is that if we want to understand the so called "preferences" (and if there are any or not), it needs to be seen from this far back in history.
I agree.

Quote
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.
Thank you for speaking out loud my thoughts lol.
Even when people don't know all the answers, it can still be possible to have a constructive and objective discussion about something with the right mindset. At least to examine and test certain thoughts qne hypothesis.
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Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #179 on: August 04, 2018, 08:19:12 pm »
Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.

None of this addresses the reason why so few women are interested in engineering, or if that in itself is actually a problem at all.

I am not sure anyone’s saying there isn’t sexism and discrimination in engineering, any more so than in any other vocation. To be absolutely clear I am not excusing it, I just don’t see it as any more prevalent in engineering, it’s a problem throughout all workplaces. When it is there, it needs pointing out.

A good deal of it is because there is a clear power imbalance at play here between HR and bosses and the employee, but that exists for both men an women. Nobody likes to rock the boat, after all it’s their livelihoods, but anecdotally in my experience women are less likely to rock that boat than men are. Men are more likely to take risks, push for more salary, and ultimately find a new job if they don’t get what they want. Also anecdotally it's not at all unusual for women in particular who have families to have negotiated over time some fairly family friendly terms, terms they almost certainly wouldn’t get if they left for a new job.

Where the line is drawn for me is the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. The former is to be always to be encouraged, the latter is not. Equality of outcome, when applied universally, by its very nature is going to be oppressive and authoritarian, and I don’t much like that. When applied as a targeted approach it’s tokenism, and I don’t much like that either.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #180 on: August 04, 2018, 08:51:54 pm »
The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.

You can stand on the side of freedom of association and be against SJWs regardless of evidence or intentions, simply on principle.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #181 on: August 04, 2018, 09:25:27 pm »
Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.

But a lot of us DO see discrimination. I have worked at multiple companies that had various affirmative action type policies. The bar is quite literally lower for a woman or minority who applies, and if there are two widely similar candidates, one of each gender the woman will almost invariably get the offer. Resumes from women are rare so they nearly 100% get through the initial HR filter if they are even remotely qualified for the job. When I was interviewing candidates maybe 5-10% of the resumes that I got were from women and yet the ratio of women working there was far higher, around 30-35%. There is absolutely discrimination, however it is rarely mentioned because it doesn't fit the agenda based on the assumption that there should be a 50/50 mix, unless the field is already dominated by women in which case nobody cares about the ratio.

There is no barrier unless they have made one for themselves, if more women gain the skills required and apply for the jobs then more women will have those jobs, it's as simple as that.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #182 on: August 04, 2018, 09:30:42 pm »
Quote
Where the line is drawn for me is the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. The former is to be always to be encouraged, the latter is not. Equality of outcome, when applied universally, by its very nature is going to be oppressive and authoritarian, and I don’t much like that. When applied as a targeted approach it’s tokenism, and I don’t much like that either.
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #183 on: August 04, 2018, 09:36:47 pm »
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Why do you think Asian men would take over?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #184 on: August 04, 2018, 09:43:28 pm »
Why do i think that? Because quotas are already needed to keep things as balanced as they are. In addition to unofficial hiring bias. The outcome is already being adjusted to be what it is. The current rebalancing for women/gender is nothing new, just the latest.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #185 on: August 04, 2018, 09:58:27 pm »
Why do i think that? Because quotas are already needed to keep things as balanced as they are.
You would need to quote chapter and verse for examples of what you have in mind there.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #186 on: August 04, 2018, 10:29:17 pm »
No, you can quote the bible for w/e you want to believe.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #187 on: August 04, 2018, 11:38:27 pm »
No, you can quote the bible for w/e you want to believe.
Is chapter and verse not a term that works outside the UK? Cite, man, cite. Pin down your claims.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:07:02 am by coppice »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #188 on: August 05, 2018, 04:17:32 am »
What does the bible have to do with any of this? I must have missed something.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #189 on: August 05, 2018, 05:15:25 am »
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.

Perhaps, but given US college admissions it seems meritocracy is still "our" best bet. The Asians are certainly ascendant, but the most meritocratic of the big tech colleges (Caltech) also has the highest percentage non Hispanic whites.

The nepotism among Indians and Chinese is a bit annoying, but the market will punish any company which lets them get too much out of line. For every Intel there is an Apple, for every Microsoft an Amazon.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 05:20:44 am by Marco »
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #190 on: August 05, 2018, 07:27:57 am »
Quote
Where the line is drawn for me is the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. The former is to be always to be encouraged, the latter is not. Equality of outcome, when applied universally, by its very nature is going to be oppressive and authoritarian, and I don’t much like that. When applied as a targeted approach it’s tokenism, and I don’t much like that either.
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.

That’s been happening here for the past fifteen years. I still see no reason to change the criteria.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2018, 08:37:54 am »
It seems like there's some racial prejustice going on here.

And what do you mean by Asian men? Asia is a huge continent, with several different human races and many more cultures and religions.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2018, 08:29:42 pm »
I am sure some will feel I’m out of line here, but the original point is about gender politics, not racism. While both exhibit forms of discrimination, they are significantly different topics, with very different localised issues that don’t equate well across an international forum, or even just within the Western world.

While I don’t want to stifle debate, I’d strongly suggest it’s off topic for this conversation.

Gender politics, on the other hand, seems to be a new industry invented over the past couple of decades that’s gained some traction across the Western world. I don’t know if it’s found its way into the rest of humanity yet, or, indeed, if that’s where it came from (I think I can probably guess the correct answer to that one already).
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2018, 09:38:44 pm »
No, you can quote the bible for w/e you want to believe.
Is chapter and verse not a term that works outside the UK? Cite, man, cite. Pin down your claims.
In Australia you can quote the law chapter and verse for example.
It simply means quoting it precisely word for word, especially with reference to where it can be found, not simply generalising.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 09:44:43 pm by Circlotron »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2018, 10:58:25 pm »
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Why do you think Asian men would take over?
In my experience, it seems like Indians dominate the tech jobs in the US.

And for the one who didn't like my first two examples for physically strong women who do wonderful things related to technology, how about April Wilkerson? She released a video today that included her showing off her strength. Albeit she and her friends AnneOfAllTrades and Laura Kampf are more in the realm of mechanical engineering.
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Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #195 on: August 05, 2018, 11:38:16 pm »
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Why do you think Asian men would take over?
In my experience, it seems like Indians dominate the tech jobs in the US.
Some US tech companies have a large Indian contingent, and some have a large East Asian contingent, mostly Chinese. A large number are people who went the US to study and stayed, or went to the US a little later in life on H1B or other visas. I think the number of Indians has been falling, as they have better opportunities in India these days. I expect the number of Chinese will also fall, as opportunities in China steadily improve. This suits the US tech companies, as they are very happy to build up their R&D centres in Asia, and employ the people there.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #196 on: August 06, 2018, 01:02:03 am »
They like the low cost of living and wages. They don't like being exposed to the economic risks of India nor the geopolitical risks of China, nor the corruption and nepotism ... they prefer infinite H1Bs.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #197 on: August 06, 2018, 02:30:31 am »
Scholarships to visit Shenzen, girls only of course.




« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 02:36:12 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #198 on: August 06, 2018, 02:34:42 am »
Only bad can come of this. Instead of employing the best person for the job, we'll start to see organisations going down the drain simply because they need to meet some arbitrary quota.

This kind of crap goes against diversity.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #199 on: August 06, 2018, 02:36:50 am »
Scholarships to visit Shenzen, girls only of course.



And why woman only?
Because apparently women were worried about the expense:
http://shehacks.com.au/2017/09/vela-georgiev-hardworx/



I do wonder if the (presumably paying) 15yo kid was even considered?
It says students. I was a full time engineering student when I was 15...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 02:47:44 am by EEVblog »
 


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