Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 100490 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1875 on: January 26, 2020, 12:16:48 pm »
You nailed it completely there  :-+
 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1876 on: January 27, 2020, 01:17:31 am »
My wager is that within the current decade, we'll get a resurgence in "direct speech", i.e. without PC/SJ nonsense, in projects where the technical quality requirements are more important than individual human emotional satisfaction.  I could be wrong, but that's my bet.

Yep, that's my bet too. There are many signs of the entire PC/SJ movement cracking and Joe Average starting to not put up with it any more. The 20's will see the slow demise of SJ politics as people realise it destroying everything.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1877 on: January 27, 2020, 01:27:29 am »
My wager is that within the current decade, we'll get a resurgence in "direct speech", i.e. without PC/SJ nonsense, in projects where the technical quality requirements are more important than individual human emotional satisfaction.  I could be wrong, but that's my bet.

Yep, that's my bet too. There are many signs of the entire PC/SJ movement cracking and Joe Average starting to not put up with it any more. The 20's will see the slow demise of SJ politics as people realise it destroying everything.

I wish I could share your optimism.
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1878 on: January 27, 2020, 01:32:10 am »
My wager is that within the current decade, we'll get a resurgence in "direct speech", i.e. without PC/SJ nonsense, in projects where the technical quality requirements are more important than individual human emotional satisfaction.  I could be wrong, but that's my bet.

Yep, that's my bet too. There are many signs of the entire PC/SJ movement cracking and Joe Average starting to not put up with it any more. The 20's will see the slow demise of SJ politics as people realise it destroying everything.

I wish I could share your optimism.

If you "give/input" an opinion about something to a people who are not able to reason and judge, due to lack of knowledge (maybe sometimes even intelligence), they have nowhere else to go unless that is substituted with something else.

I can't recall moment in history where "average Joe" was able to steer the events. Just occasional  bursts of emotions, usually purely articulated and after a while, some tweaks and here we go again : )

So... yea, this is not going away easily IMHO : )



 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1879 on: January 27, 2020, 01:43:04 am »
My wager is that within the current decade, we'll get a resurgence in "direct speech", i.e. without PC/SJ nonsense, in projects where the technical quality requirements are more important than individual human emotional satisfaction.  I could be wrong, but that's my bet.

Yep, that's my bet too. There are many signs of the entire PC/SJ movement cracking and Joe Average starting to not put up with it any more. The 20's will see the slow demise of SJ politics as people realise it destroying everything.

I wish I could share your optimism.

If you "give/input" an opinion about something to a people who are not able to reason and judge, due to lack of knowledge (maybe sometimes even intelligence), they have nowhere else to go unless that is substituted with something else.

I can't recall moment in history where "average Joe" was able to steer the events. Just occasional  bursts of emotions, usually purely articulated and after a while, some tweaks and here we go again : )

So... yea, this is not going away easily IMHO : )
In my experience, society will stabilize somewhere in between. The more radical movements and thoughts on both sides will be ostracized and ridiculed by history, but the overall average behaviour will be more "socially conscious". This will probably be due to a simple numbers game: a great deal of people were born and raised into this and will tip the scales in the workplace, school, etc. I personally can identify a few behaviours and thought processes that were completely or moderately different than my parents.
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Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1880 on: January 27, 2020, 05:16:11 am »
In my experience, society will stabilize somewhere in between. The more radical movements and thoughts on both sides will be ostracized and ridiculed by history, but the overall average behaviour will be more "socially conscious". This will probably be due to a simple numbers game: a great deal of people were born and raised into this and will tip the scales in the workplace, school, etc. I personally can identify a few behaviours and thought processes that were completely or moderately different than my parents.


It certainly would be nice, I'm not quite as optimistic though. The online world makes it very easy for people to exist in gigantic echo chambers filled with like minded people and after a while they believe that the majority of people feel as they do and go into denial about the existence of significant numbers of people who disagree. It's so easy to block anyone a person doesn't agree with that people end up not even knowing how to handle a view different than their own. People have become incredibly polarized, few know how to agree to disagree anymore. Politics have become tribal with people blindly supporting their group and opposing all others.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1881 on: January 27, 2020, 05:34:28 am »
Well said.

The analogy is deeper as well. Both homeopathy and gender studies seem to be about self-empowerment past rationality.
Homeopathy has the redeeming quality that its proponents at least know its harmless, even if it can cause bad knock on effects, like making people skip real medical help.
Except when, due to being essentially or actually unregulated (depending on the country), manufacturing errors cause actual harmful ingredients to be present in the final product, causing actual, real, direct harm: https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/10/fda-homeopathic-teething-gels-may-have-killed-10-babies-sickened-400/

So even ignoring knock-on effects, there are cases where homeopathic “medicine” is literally worse than nothing at all. IMHO that crap should be banned. (I find it insane that here in Switzerland, not only is it not banned, but homeopathic stuff is even covered by insurance, by law.)
 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1882 on: January 27, 2020, 06:57:16 am »
In my experience, society will stabilize somewhere in between. The more radical movements and thoughts on both sides will be ostracized and ridiculed by history, but the overall average behaviour will be more "socially conscious". This will probably be due to a simple numbers game: a great deal of people were born and raised into this and will tip the scales in the workplace, school, etc. I personally can identify a few behaviours and thought processes that were completely or moderately different than my parents.
It certainly would be nice, I'm not quite as optimistic though. The online world makes it very easy for people to exist in gigantic echo chambers filled with like minded people

True. But on the flip side that online worlds can also help anti-SJW backlash stuff go viral too.
Look at Ricky Gervais Oscors monologue that was a huge hit. Speaking of which everyone is now seeing how this stuff has destroyed award ceremonies, sporting events and coverage, and movies with excessive down-your-throat woke-ism. People are not only fighting back, but those who control the purse strings are realising that when you "get woke, you go broke" as they say. As a result this woke stuff won't keep up, it can't. As a double whammy, stuff that rejects woke-ism is making money.
This is why I'm optimistic, you can see it happening now.

On the engineering side of things, everyone with half a clue knows that the lowering of standards for women isn't going to work evening numbers, it could even backfire. Give that about 5 years and I think toward the end of this decade people will have come to their senses and this nonsense will die away. Perhaps it'll die away with twitter  ;D
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1883 on: January 27, 2020, 07:40:57 am »
It certainly would be nice, I'm not quite as optimistic though. The online world makes it very easy for people to exist in gigantic echo chambers filled with like minded people and after a while they believe that the majority of people feel as they do and go into denial about the existence of significant numbers of people who disagree. It's so easy to block anyone a person doesn't agree with that people end up not even knowing how to handle a view different than their own. People have become incredibly polarized, few know how to agree to disagree anymore. Politics have become tribal with people blindly supporting their group and opposing all others.
The gigantic echo chambers existed before, burying their heads in sand and pretending they don't see each other. What the online world changed is forcing them to interact with each other. Case in point, see journalists and their almost universal and boringly predictable response to anything not favoring globalism, equalism, feminism and all the other Big -Isms.

This really isn't anything new. Fundamentally, it's The Nerds versus The Plebs, and it seems to have been going on for some 200 years by now. The chaos we see is because The Nerds have mightily shot their foot with the Internet because they fell for their own propaganda and thought that they have already won.

My $.02, anyway ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 07:43:54 am by magic »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1884 on: January 27, 2020, 08:10:28 am »
In my experience, society will stabilize somewhere in between. The more radical movements and thoughts on both sides will be ostracized and ridiculed by history, but the overall average behaviour will be more "socially conscious". This will probably be due to a simple numbers game: a great deal of people were born and raised into this and will tip the scales in the workplace, school, etc. I personally can identify a few behaviours and thought processes that were completely or moderately different than my parents.
It certainly would be nice, I'm not quite as optimistic though. The online world makes it very easy for people to exist in gigantic echo chambers filled with like minded people

True. But on the flip side that online worlds can also help anti-SJW backlash stuff go viral too.
Look at Ricky Gervais Oscors monologue that was a huge hit. Speaking of which everyone is now seeing how this stuff has destroyed award ceremonies, sporting events and coverage, and movies with excessive down-your-throat woke-ism. People are not only fighting back, but those who control the purse strings are realising that when you "get woke, you go broke" as they say. As a result this woke stuff won't keep up, it can't. As a double whammy, stuff that rejects woke-ism is making money.
This is why I'm optimistic, you can see it happening now.

On the engineering side of things, everyone with half a clue knows that the lowering of standards for women isn't going to work evening numbers, it could even backfire. Give that about 5 years and I think toward the end of this decade people will have come to their senses and this nonsense will die away. Perhaps it'll die away with twitter  ;D

Gervais isn't all that clever just by saying what a lot of people think. The establishment can't run him out of town as he said he wouldn't host the event ever again. And it was re-hashed comedy anyway..



I think the end to this witch-hunt mentality is a long, long way off due the fact that only those with nothing to loose can speak 'freely'. All others with an audience had better toe the line if they know what's good for them.

Make no mistake, angry mobs have perfected the art of destroying careers of those brave enough to deny the narrative. They'll go after your peers, your employer, for family and keep harassing until you're gone because they have little else to do and, more importantly, their actions are not dealt with in any effective way by either the police or the court system, because they themselves fear the lynch mobs.

Look back fondly, but I think it's setting oneself up for disappointment hoping that the world will someday see sense. People in all civilizations have a percentage who bitch and moan and contribute not much else, except vote. They vote. Until somebody fixes that, we're fucked.

 :)






« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 08:12:56 am by Ed.Kloonk »
 

Offline SerieZ

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1885 on: January 27, 2020, 08:30:45 am »

So even ignoring knock-on effects, there are cases where homeopathic “medicine” is literally worse than nothing at all. IMHO that crap should be banned. (I find it insane that here in Switzerland, not only is it not banned, but homeopathic stuff is even covered by insurance, by law.)

That is false, in Switzerland you can opt out of homeopathic stuff when you select your Insurance coverage.
Actually you need to explicitly tell them you want it and then pay a certain increase for it.
The way you are phrasing it implies it is an obligation to pay for other peoples stupid life choices when it is not.

Honestly I dont see a problem with people paying for their own Placebo and I really do NOT appreciate people leveraging Government to save them from their own Stupidity at the expense of the responsible.
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Online Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1886 on: January 27, 2020, 08:40:04 am »
I can't recall moment in history where "average Joe" was able to steer the events.
Why, it happens all the time in any country with "Peoples" in its name e.g. PRC, DPRK etc.  :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit:
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1887 on: January 27, 2020, 09:27:18 am »
To be fair it happens in any country with letters in the name
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1888 on: January 28, 2020, 07:07:50 pm »
On the engineering side of things, everyone with half a clue knows that the lowering of standards for women isn't going to work evening numbers, it could even backfire.

Well, if anything, that really shows a fundamental misunderstanding (or maybe more like, a lack of willingness to understand) of why women still are less interested in engineering than men on average.

It kind of assumes that one of the reasons, or even the main one, is because engineering is hard. It's not only stupid, but it's actually insulting for women as well.
Lowering standards for anyone is just going to possibly attract mediocre students. Not particularly women.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1889 on: January 28, 2020, 07:51:29 pm »
On the engineering side of things, everyone with half a clue knows that the lowering of standards for women isn't going to work evening numbers, it could even backfire.

Well, if anything, that really shows a fundamental misunderstanding (or maybe more like, a lack of willingness to understand) of why women still are less interested in engineering than men on average.

It kind of assumes that one of the reasons, or even the main one, is because engineering is hard. It's not only stupid, but it's actually insulting for women as well.
Lowering standards for anyone is just going to possibly attract mediocre students. Not particularly women.
Its just another example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. This must drive capable women crazy.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1890 on: January 28, 2020, 09:13:54 pm »
Literally every feminist will tell you that women are equally competent as men and that the point is, perhaps in less blunt words, to fill the industry with feminist cannon fodder who will police the men to behave themselves at work, so that alleged suitable women currently repelled by crude male behavior will be able to join and show those men who is the boss.

I mean, I'm in no way an advocate for feminism, but facts are facts. Are you guys even reading their press releases? :P
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1891 on: January 28, 2020, 09:16:10 pm »
Literally every feminist will tell you that women are equally competent as men and that the point is, perhaps in less blunt words, to fill the industry with feminist cannon fodder who will police the men to behave themselves at work, so that alleged suitable women currently repelled by crude male behavior will be able to join and show those men who is the boss.
Who will police the crude female behaviour if the males are busy doing all the work?
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1892 on: January 28, 2020, 09:19:57 pm »
Men getting anything done in presence of females, that's funny.
Remember high school and coeducation? :-DD

edit
Okay, say that people grow up or that I must be some sort of pathology to say such things. Fair enough, maybe I am. But I'm a software guy so go figure :P
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 09:22:26 pm by magic »
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1893 on: January 28, 2020, 09:20:57 pm »
This must drive capable women crazy.
Every man and woman I've worked with got to where they were by being good at their jobs (or at least by being the best candidate available for the position at the time).

I would personally would find it incredibly insulting to go to an interview and get hired because of some quota or just to improve some diversity score.
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1894 on: January 28, 2020, 11:45:51 pm »
Literally every feminist will tell you that women are equally competent as men and that the point is, perhaps in less blunt words, to fill the industry with feminist cannon fodder who will police the men to behave themselves at work

Which still doesn't explain why lowering standards would be a reasonable way to achieve this. If they are "equally competent as men", why would they need lowered standards? It again just conveys the idea that to attract them in those jobs, we just need to make things easier. As though making it easier to become engineers was going to magically get them interested. Whatever we may think of the whole feminist agenda, this reasoning is completely borked.
 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1895 on: January 29, 2020, 12:09:53 am »
Literally every feminist will tell you that women are equally competent as men and that the point is, perhaps in less blunt words, to fill the industry with feminist cannon fodder who will police the men to behave themselves at work

Which still doesn't explain why lowering standards would be a reasonable way to achieve this. If they are "equally competent as men", why would they need lowered standards? It again just conveys the idea that to attract them in those jobs, we just need to make things easier. As though making it easier to become engineers was going to magically get them interested. Whatever we may think of the whole feminist agenda, this reasoning is completely borked.

Agreed, it's a completely screwed up idea.
I can imagine many women being insulted that they are pandered to in this way as if they are somehow inferior in the ability to get into an engineering degree.
And then when they do get in, having people think "oh, you only got in because they lowered the standards", and that mindset propagating into the industry as well.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1896 on: January 29, 2020, 12:54:17 am »
Which still doesn't explain why lowering standards would be a reasonable way to achieve this. If they are "equally competent as men", why would they need lowered standards? It again just conveys the idea that to attract them in those jobs, we just need to make things easier. As though making it easier to become engineers was going to magically get them interested. Whatever we may think of the whole feminist agenda, this reasoning is completely borked.


I would argue that the ones that are interested in engineering *are* equally competent. The thing is, there are not nearly so many of those out there so if you want to have an even gender ratio  you are forced to pick some of the less competent ones to fill the gap.

That's what it really all comes down to, there are a lot more men who are passionate about engineering any change in this is going to have to happen way, way before we ever talk about hiring someone. I was obsessed with engineering and building things out of legos and cardboard boxes and stuff by the time I could walk. Nobody ever encouraged me to be an engineer, I've never even considered doing something that is not at least related to the field.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1897 on: January 29, 2020, 03:29:26 am »
I was obsessed with engineering and building things out of legos and cardboard boxes and stuff by the time I could walk. Nobody ever encouraged me to be an engineer, I've never even considered doing something that is not at least related to the field.
Me too, except with wood instead of cardboard, and physics instead of engineering.

This has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with innate interests.  It just happens those innate interests are not evenly distributed among genders, so the non-even gender ratio is quite natural.  A similar difference is seen even in monkeys in experiments, where females prefer dolls and males prefer mechanical things (BBC Two on Youtube).

That said, one does not need to be that focused; just interest in the field is enough.  And there are subfields, like user interface design, where the focus interest is in people (or their needs), with technical interest somewhat secondary.  So overall, I think you do need all sorts of interest focuses, to cover the actual requirement to develop and build good products.  (Whether good products make commercial sense, is a different question.)

Any kind of quotas or positive discrimination just sounds unsane to me: shooting oneself in the foot, without any benefit to anyone.

If you put an average worker in a demanding position, they may get better pay; but either they, or their coworkers, will be much less happy.  I firmly believe that a meritocratic approach -- letting peoples output determine the worth of their work -- is simply better, with more happiness and less unhappiness as a result, overall.  To me, it does look like these gender politics people are against overall happiness, really.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1898 on: January 29, 2020, 04:39:36 am »
I am not into Football but I found this outragous:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7933703/Employers-crack-sports-chat-excludes-women.html
Quote
Employers must crack down on sports chat in the workplace because it 'excludes women and encourages laddish behaviour', management expert claims

Head of Chartered Management Institute says sports chat 'leaves out' women
Ann Francke says if unchecked it can lead to more boorish banter about sex
She said: 'It's very easy for it to escalate from VAR talk and chat to slapping each other on the back and talking about their conquests at the weekend'
Critics including Piers Morgan and Jacqui Oatley blast it as a terrible idea
Others say by same rule chat about TV or children should also be censored
By MARTIN ROBINSON, CHIEF REPORTER FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 11:45, 27 January 2020 | UPDATED: 15:28, 27 January 2020


Sports chat at work should be discouraged because it excludes women - and if 'unchecked' can be a 'gateway' to 'laddish banter' including men bragging about sexual conquests, the female head of a major business body claimed today.

Ann Francke, head of the Chartered Management Institute, has said that bosses should actively curtail male staff talking about football, cricket and rugby in case women feel 'left out' at work.

Speaking to BBC Radio 4's Today programme Ms Francke, who is married with a daughter, said of sports chatter: 'A lot of women, in particular, feel left out. They don't follow those sports and they don't like either being forced to talk about them or not being included. I have nothing against sports enthusiasts or cricket fans - that's great. But the issue is many people aren't cricket fans'. She added: 'It's very easy for it to escalate from VAR talk and chat to slapping each other on the back and talking about their conquests at the weekend. It's a gateway to more laddish behaviour and - if it just goes unchecked - it's a signal of a more laddish culture'.

Piers Morgan tweeted today: 'What utter twaddle. We’ve got to stop these virtue-signalling cretins sucking all the fun out of life'. Ann Francke, head of the Chartered Management Institute, has made waves by suggesting sports chat at work should be curtailed to avoid excluding women, Ms Francke suggested that talking about technical aspects of football, such as the controversial introduction of video assistant refereeing (VAR), could disproportionately exclude women. If 'unchecked', it could lead to more boorish chat, including about having sex with women, the management expert has said. TV presenter Jacqui Oatley said it would be a 'terrible idea' to ban chat about sport at work Ms Francke, who says sports chat should be moderated rather than banned, has been branded 'sexist' herself by women who do want to talk sport. Ann is Chief Executive of the Chartered Management Institute but started her career at Procter & Gamble where she managed brands including Pampers and Olay. She also worked for Mars and Boots.

Her biography describes her as 'an expert on gender balance in the workplace and named in the top 100 women to watch in business in 2015. Critics have said that by applying the same logic non-work related chat about TV shows such Love Island, EastEnders and Game of Thrones should also be curtailed. While others asked if workers with children could be stopped from talking about them in case it offends those without them. Ms Francke was debating the issue on radio this morning - where fellow guest Jacqui Oatley, a sports broadcaster, said it would be a 'terrible idea'. She said: 'If you ban football chat or banter of any description, then all you're going to do it alienate the people who actually want to communicate with each other. Ms Francke's comments on the BBC about  'excessive sports banter at work' being unhealthy have proved controversial Critics say the assertion that women don't want to talk sport is sexist - and implementing it would be impossible and wrong 'It would be so, so negative to tell people not to talk about sport because girls don't like it or women don't like it, that's far more divisive'.

There has been a huge reaction to the story on social media.  Office manager Debra Smyth is concerned that chat about hit TV shows and soaps could be hit - meaning staff would only be able to talk about work. She said: 'I personally think companies should not dictate what people talk about, as not talking about it will alienate those with similar interests. 'Where would it end? Banning people with children talking about them so as not to alienate people without children. Certainly not!' While recruiter Peter Ferguson said: 'I have seen managers and staff build a more direct bond over a shared love of sport which has excluded those who don't share that interest. 'The answer is not to ban the conversation, it is to ensure managers and staff are trained to understand that those shared interests should not get in the way of management decisions or working collaboratively.' 


She doesn't like men to talk about football because she feels excluded and therefore other all women must feel excluded as if she speaks for all women.
I knew a few who liked football and there is even womens football now and I suppose they are many things more she may feel left out in.

Couldn't this happen in  engineering when one of these women decide that they don't want men talking about it as they may feel left out and then try and ban it.

I take offense how she stereotypes men who talk about subjects that she feels left out as laddish behaviour.

If she calls laddish behaviour then what is the opposite equivalent that women may do?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 04:42:08 am by MrMobodies »
 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1899 on: January 29, 2020, 07:40:28 am »
I was obsessed with engineering and building things out of legos and cardboard boxes and stuff by the time I could walk. Nobody ever encouraged me to be an engineer, I've never even considered doing something that is not at least related to the field.
Me too, except with wood instead of cardboard, and physics instead of engineering.
This has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with innate interests.  It just happens those innate interests are not evenly distributed among genders, so the non-even gender ratio is quite natural.  A similar difference is seen even in monkeys in experiments, where females prefer dolls and males prefer mechanical things (BBC Two on Youtube).

You see the same thing on Youtube. Every engineering related channel is struggling to get to even a 5% female audience, even when the host is a female.
I've been taken to task by SJW's about my lack of appeal to a female audience, I need to "do better" in regards to my content and my speech they say. Funny thing is, that criticism has also come from female Youtubers in the same space who get the same numbers I do, strange that...
 


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