Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 107426 times)

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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1900 on: January 29, 2020, 07:43:57 am »
I was obsessed with engineering and building things out of legos and cardboard boxes and stuff by the time I could walk. Nobody ever encouraged me to be an engineer, I've never even considered doing something that is not at least related to the field.
Me too, except with wood instead of cardboard, and physics instead of engineering.
This has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with innate interests.  It just happens those innate interests are not evenly distributed among genders, so the non-even gender ratio is quite natural.  A similar difference is seen even in monkeys in experiments, where females prefer dolls and males prefer mechanical things (BBC Two on Youtube).

You see the same thing on Youtube. Every engineering related channel is struggling to get to even a 5% female audience, even when the host is a female.
I've been taken to task by SJW's about my lack of appeal to a female audience, I need to "do better" in regards to my content and my speech they say. Funny thing is, that criticism has also come from female Youtubers in the same space who get the same numbers I do, strange that...

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Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1901 on: January 29, 2020, 08:24:06 am »
Literally every feminist will tell you that women are equally competent as men and that the point is, perhaps in less blunt words, to fill the industry with feminist cannon fodder who will police the men to behave themselves at work
Which still doesn't explain why lowering standards would be a reasonable way to achieve this. If they are "equally competent as men", why would they need lowered standards? It again just conveys the idea that to attract them in tho
You failed to quote half of my post :P

In short: feminist cannon fodder ≠ talented women kept out by systemic bias.
The former comes now and obviously needs lowered standards, the latter will come later after toxic masculinity is resolved.

And, I don't know, you need to understand that this drama really originates from software IMO. And it's been going strong since the earliest 2010s, hardly "infected now". I still remember how the "orange forum" turned from a mostly politics-free geek safe space into a social justice warzone many years ago.

A peculiar thing about software is that many (not all) places really consists of 75%+ unmarried male adolescents. You can imagine what that looks like. And 75% of those "women in tech" are about as socially adjusted as an average nerdy programmer, so you can imagine all sorts of awkwardness ensues. So yes, there are grains of truth to the whole drama. At the same time, I don't really see things changing, unless you do like Google and train your drones to check their privilege and apologize for their maleness at every opportunity. That turns them into slightly more docile children. <insert any photo from Google offices here>

Feminist think they can change something by pushing more women in by force. I don't know, one thing I certainly expect is prime comedy, at any rate :)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 08:26:32 am by magic »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1902 on: January 29, 2020, 08:54:27 am »
A peculiar thing about software is that many (not all) places really consists of 75%+ unmarried male adolescents. You can imagine what that looks like. And 75% of those "women in tech" are about as socially adjusted as an average nerdy programmer, so you can imagine all sorts of awkwardness ensues.
The solution to that is not quotas and rules, but educating or helping those awkward people develop better social skills, say in a club or something lead by one of the socially focused activists.

Nah, won't happen.  Making rules and having others enforce them because you're too loud to ignore, is much easier.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1903 on: January 29, 2020, 11:48:22 am »
A peculiar thing about software is that many (not all) places really consists of 75%+ unmarried male adolescents.
Those places are outliers. Most software departments have a similar mix to hardware departments - practically all men, spread over a wide range of ages, types, and experience levels.
 

Offline nigelwright7557

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1904 on: January 29, 2020, 11:55:09 am »
At the first electronics company  I worked at there were just as many female workers.
I don't recall there being many problems with that.
The only problem that occurred was management saying that as they were coming in on the ground floor they would rise as time went by.
Sadly that didn't happen, it was the blokes who got the best jobs and promotions.


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Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1905 on: January 29, 2020, 11:57:58 am »
At the first electronics company  I worked at there were just as many female workers.
I don't recall there being many problems with that.
The only problem that occurred was management saying that as they were coming in on the ground floor they would rise as time went by.
Sadly that didn't happen, it was the blokes who got the best jobs and promotions.

I would quote my friend from student days. "We need those girls in IT, somebody needs to order those cables".

I suppose your electronics company was actually trading or something like?

But joke a side, two girls influenced me a lot as a student. One was leading promotor back in the days when we had ULC Linux groups and another one at a time made final billing-processing for Telecom operator in 60mil user market. Horrible task, but that girl did it remarkable.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:31:25 pm by nardev »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1906 on: January 29, 2020, 11:58:30 am »
I've seen many reports that in the US a lot of women enter STEM courses but switch to non-STEM courses very quickly. This week I read of a study showing US female students obsess far more about their GPA than male students. Further, they say that because of massive grade inflation in practically everything but the STEM courses there is a huge incentive for GPA focussed women to swap courses, and this seems to be a major factor in them leaving STEM courses. The suggested course of action is to similarly trash the value of a STEM degree to remove this incentive. Why is every fix for a problem in education, that is suggested by people in education, to further trash an already broken education system?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1907 on: January 29, 2020, 12:16:06 pm »
Which still doesn't explain why lowering standards would be a reasonable way to achieve this. If they are "equally competent as men", why would they need lowered standards? It again just conveys the idea that to attract them in those jobs, we just need to make things easier. As though making it easier to become engineers was going to magically get them interested. Whatever we may think of the whole feminist agenda, this reasoning is completely borked.

I would argue that the ones that are interested in engineering *are* equally competent. The thing is, there are not nearly so many of those out there so if you want to have an even gender ratio  you are forced to pick some of the less competent ones to fill the gap.

I see the idea, but I'm still absolutely not convinced it can work in the end, and I don't get/don't even agree with the reasoning. It again assumes that the less competent women will get interested in engineering suddenly because it's made easier, as though lack of competence was the main reason (or at least a significant reason) they are not interested or shy away from engineering. I'm absolutely not convinced of that one bit. The "you are forced to pick some of the less competent ones to fill the gap" implies that there would be a significant number of young women just waiting to be picked as long as it's not too difficult. That may represent a tiny fraction of them at best. The reasoning is fallacious IMO.


 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1908 on: January 29, 2020, 12:34:34 pm »
I've seen many reports that in the US a lot of women enter STEM courses but switch to non-STEM courses very quickly. This week I read of a study showing US female students obsess far more about their GPA than male students. Further, they say that because of massive grade inflation in practically everything but the STEM courses there is a huge incentive for GPA focussed women to swap courses, and this seems to be a major factor in them leaving STEM courses. The suggested course of action is to similarly trash the value of a STEM degree to remove this incentive. Why is every fix for a problem in education, that is suggested by people in education, to further trash an already broken education system?

For many decades already, math and engineering students are switching their fields. Mostly going to banking, trading etc.

Similar reasons...earn more, bit easierbto swim in a pool with more water(read money).
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1909 on: January 29, 2020, 12:45:11 pm »
I've seen many reports that in the US a lot of women enter STEM courses but switch to non-STEM courses very quickly. This week I read of a study showing US female students obsess far more about their GPA than male students. Further, they say that because of massive grade inflation in practically everything but the STEM courses there is a huge incentive for GPA focussed women to swap courses, and this seems to be a major factor in them leaving STEM courses. The suggested course of action is to similarly trash the value of a STEM degree to remove this incentive. Why is every fix for a problem in education, that is suggested by people in education, to further trash an already broken education system?
For many decades already, math and engineering students are switching their fields. Mostly going to banking, trading etc.
Taking an engineering degree, and choosing things like the control systems options, has indeed been a route into finance for decades. However, the banks actually want the engineering degree for the understanding of maths and systems that it brings. So, students can't just swap courses. They can only change their direction after graduation. If they change before they just get a tick box degree, enter finance as part of a generic pool, and need to take time to establish themselves.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1910 on: January 29, 2020, 01:16:24 pm »
For many decades already, math and engineering students are switching their fields. Mostly going to banking, trading etc.

A tad off-topic, but I've always been perplexed why I've never met a colleague or interviewed a graduate from the EE department at the university of Sydney (which has a big EE department). It's almost as if they all vanish into the ether after graduating...
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1911 on: January 29, 2020, 01:59:54 pm »
For many decades already, math and engineering students are switching their fields. Mostly going to banking, trading etc.

A tad off-topic, but I've always been perplexed why I've never met a colleague or interviewed a graduate from the EE department at the university of Sydney (which has a big EE department). It's almost as if they all vanish into the ether after graduating...
I've met a number of people who studied EE in Sydney in the 70s and 80s. I met them working in the UK, when the UK still had an electronics industry. :)

Perhaps Australia has become like the UK became in the 80s. People were still studying EE, but a decreasing number were doing it with any expectation or intention of working in the electronics field, rapidly approaching zero.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1912 on: January 29, 2020, 02:02:55 pm »
A tad off-topic, but I've always been perplexed why I've never met a colleague or interviewed a graduate from the EE department at the university of Sydney (which has a big EE department). It's almost as if they all vanish into the ether after graduating...

Because once they've got their degrees, they're entitled to look down on you. I've worked with a few universities in my life and I'd say 99% of the people there are complete utter dumb asses but with a degree, that the less they know, the more they look down on others... If Horowitz and Hill belonged to that 99%, they wouldn't have ever dared to mention you in their book. There's a word for the disease in spanish: titulitis.
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Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1913 on: January 29, 2020, 02:15:36 pm »
A tad off-topic, but I've always been perplexed why I've never met a colleague or interviewed a graduate from the EE department at the university of Sydney (which has a big EE department). It's almost as if they all vanish into the ether after graduating...

Because once they've got their degrees, they're entitled to look down on you. I've worked with a few universities in my life and I'd say 99% of the people there are complete utter dumb asses but with a degree, that the less they know, the more they look down on others... If Horowitz and Hill belonged to that 99%, they wouldn't have ever dared to mention you in their book. There's a word for the disease in spanish: titulitis.

Sometimes, faculties are only good "producer" of their own staff : ) :-DD It's quite rare that those people are very creative. Most of my favorite demonstrators were actually part time working for the faculty. They were able to enliven the knowledge, make you think that there is a reason for all of that. (In my country, especially after the war, we didn't get the lab opportunities as in some other places).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 03:07:03 pm by nardev »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1914 on: January 29, 2020, 07:22:15 pm »
For many decades already, math and engineering students are switching their fields. Mostly going to banking, trading etc.

A tad off-topic, but I've always been perplexed why I've never met a colleague or interviewed a graduate from the EE department at the university of Sydney (which has a big EE department). It's almost as if they all vanish into the ether after graduating...

They possibly just gor for a completely different career path after graduating. Which may not be all that surprising, because, I don't know about Australia, but EE jobs, especially until you reach management level, are not that well paid in many countries...

 

Offline John B

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1915 on: January 30, 2020, 01:53:49 am »
I was obsessed with engineering and building things out of legos and cardboard boxes and stuff by the time I could walk. Nobody ever encouraged me to be an engineer, I've never even considered doing something that is not at least related to the field.
Me too, except with wood instead of cardboard, and physics instead of engineering.
This has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with innate interests.  It just happens those innate interests are not evenly distributed among genders, so the non-even gender ratio is quite natural.  A similar difference is seen even in monkeys in experiments, where females prefer dolls and males prefer mechanical things (BBC Two on Youtube).

You see the same thing on Youtube. Every engineering related channel is struggling to get to even a 5% female audience, even when the host is a female.
I've been taken to task by SJW's about my lack of appeal to a female audience, I need to "do better" in regards to my content and my speech they say. Funny thing is, that criticism has also come from female Youtubers in the same space who get the same numbers I do, strange that...

When someone complains that your content doesn't appeal to female viewers, ask them what they have done to help. Have they shared your content with every woman that they know?

Surely everyone is a winner right? You get exposure and you'd probably pick up a few more female viewers.

There's just an extreme amount of entitlement in asserting a non-problem is a problem, but then expecting everyone else to do the work of fixing your pet issue. At this point, I'm not sure I even believe the people complaining think that female viewership is a problem. The impulse is just to exert control over someone else, to make them jump when instructed.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1916 on: January 30, 2020, 01:55:04 am »
For many decades already, math and engineering students are switching their fields. Mostly going to banking, trading etc.

A tad off-topic, but I've always been perplexed why I've never met a colleague or interviewed a graduate from the EE department at the university of Sydney (which has a big EE department). It's almost as if they all vanish into the ether after graduating...
I've met a number of people who studied EE in Sydney in the 70s and 80s. I met them working in the UK, when the UK still had an electronics industry. :)
Perhaps Australia has become like the UK became in the 80s. People were still studying EE, but a decreasing number were doing it with any expectation or intention of working in the electronics field, rapidly approaching zero.

Our industry has tanked too, but it's not that.
I've interviewed countless engineers and graduates over the years and seen countless more resumes, and none of them come from USyd. UNSW, UTS, Western Syd, Newcastle, even Macquarie, but USyd graduates vanish into the ether.
I can only presume it's something like USyd it pretty elite, likely more expensive and hence more likely to be paid for by the bank of Mum&Dad, and more expectation to be more than "just an engineer". So they all end up in unrelated fields or engineering management instead of practicing engineering. or Academia.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 01:57:23 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1917 on: January 30, 2020, 02:10:00 am »
When someone complains that your content doesn't appeal to female viewers, ask them what they have done to help. Have they shared your content with every woman that they know?

Ah, but you see, therein lies the trick. My speech is the problem, and I have to fix that (and probably check my privilege) before they will recommend my content.

Quote
There's just an extreme amount of entitlement in asserting a non-problem is a problem, but then expecting everyone else to do the work of fixing your pet issue. At this point, I'm not sure I even believe the people complaining think that female viewership is a problem. The impulse is just to exert control over someone else, to make them jump when instructed.

Bingo, guess my response to that.
 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1918 on: January 30, 2020, 08:52:07 am »
A peculiar thing about software is that many (not all) places really consists of 75%+ unmarried male adolescents.
Those places are outliers. Most software departments have a similar mix to hardware departments - practically all men, spread over a wide range of ages, types, and experience levels.
You are probably right. There is a whole world of secretive corporate behemoths, classified government contractors, big finance IT departments and so on. But the "young and crazy web startups" is what gets the news and sets the image, IMO. And that scene is full of youngsters.

In SV they even have a new -ism, ageism, which postulates that people past 40 or so are discriminated against by companies founded or run by all those 20-somethings. I think Zuckerberg or someone like that is known for ranting at one point that only young people are capable of innovation because the old are too set in their ways and whatnot. He probably changed his tune after his lawyers whispered him a word or two, but there you go.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1919 on: January 30, 2020, 08:56:56 am »
In SV they even have a new -ism, ageism, which postulates that people past 40 or so are discriminated against by companies founded or run by all those 20-somethings. I think Zuckerberg or someone like that is known for ranting at one point that only young people are capable of innovation because the old are too set in their ways and whatnot.

Most startups fail  ;D
 

Online bd139

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1920 on: January 30, 2020, 09:00:16 am »
Also zuck only succeeded because of his backers and their motivations. The idea was pretty shit and still is now. He Would be toking on a bong in a trailer park somewhere if it wasn’t for them.
 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1921 on: January 30, 2020, 09:33:24 am »
Same thing everywhere. The other day I've read that the "usury" market in Eastern Europe is dominated by one innovative Latvian startup, just coincidentally financed by a former Russian casino magnate, after Daddy Vladimir decided that gambling is too immoral and harmful for Russians and banned it :)
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1922 on: January 30, 2020, 09:43:05 am »
In SV they even have a new -ism, ageism, which postulates that people past 40 or so are discriminated against by companies founded or run by all those 20-somethings.
There's nothing new about ageism in silicon valley. Because US employment law provides the over 40s with some protections against this, some companies are notorious for driving out all but the highest performers in their late 30s.
I think Zuckerberg or someone like that is known for ranting at one point that only young people are capable of innovation because the old are too set in their ways and whatnot. He probably changed his tune after his lawyers whispered him a word or two, but there you go.
Ageism has little to do with this dumb attitude. Companies who drive people out in their late 30s know that highly experienced people are highly valuable. They don't drive out the highest performers. Zuckerberg always seems clueless. He must have got lucky.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1923 on: January 30, 2020, 06:53:31 pm »
Ageism is absolutely a thing, there are lots of examples of older people being swept out by rounds of layoffs, and it is a statistical fact that people over 40 have a much harder time getting hired. There are valid reasons, it costs companies more to provide health insurance to older people, they are more likely to need time off for medical issues or have expensive illnesses like heart attacks or cancer. They can be perceived as set in their ways or out of touch, there is concern that they will have high salary expectations being that far through their career, or for the 50+ crowd the concern that they will only stick around a short time before retiring. It's completely unfair since we will all (hopefully) be old at some point but it happens frequently, I've seen it myself.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1924 on: January 30, 2020, 07:10:41 pm »
Ageism is absolutely a thing, there are lots of examples of older people being swept out by rounds of layoffs, and it is a statistical fact that people over 40 have a much harder time getting hired.
No question there. If someone is laid off after 50 they are either well placed to retire early, or looking for mundane low grade jobs.
There are valid reasons, it costs companies more to provide health insurance to older people, they are more likely to need time off for medical issues or have expensive illnesses like heart attacks or cancer.
Is that really true these days? Most people who don't abuse themselves don't seem to have much medical trouble up to retirement these days. Young employees have high medical costs, not for themselves but for birthing and raising their kids.
They can be perceived as set in their ways or out of touch
Young employees can be hopelessly out of touch, reinventing solutions that the older people developed years ago, and can redeploy with barely a thought. When older people are inflexible it tends to be more obvious, because they tend to be a lot more assertive. I don't think its clear who has the greatest drawbacks, though.
there is concern that they will have high salary expectations being that far through their career
You'd be surprised how little a previously highly paid employee will accept when there is no better alternative.  :)
for the 50+ crowd the concern that they will only stick around a short time before retiring.
Most people accepting a job are even more concerned the job will evaporate before they reach the age where they want to retire.
It's completely unfair since we will all (hopefully) be old at some point but it happens frequently, I've seen it myself.
Fair isn't very relevant. This is business. It is, however, strange to see older people in HR with a poor attitude about other older employees.
 


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