Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 106724 times)

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1950 on: February 03, 2020, 02:31:39 pm »
The marketplace is a very wide world. Not every work on engineering and such require brilliance and expertise of an Einstein.
Good point. I entirely expect the number of female electronics/computer/software engineers to increase in the future, for the simple reason that this stuff no longer is a branch of literal rocket science as it used to be. But there you go; stereotypes, stereotypes ::)
Nice way to remove context and distort my words. As coppice (and others) mentioned, individual choice matters for one to appreciate and decide to work with engineering, not intelligence alone - obviously as long as no one is forced into a position just to stuff quotas due to an idiotic policy of equality. To me your removed snippet is extremely myopic (individual choice does not matter and the whole engineering field is worse because of that) but, hey, it is just your opinion. 

So you are saying women are less intelligent than men?
I choose to remain skeptically unconvinced :)
There is no question that no woman I know seems to match my overall mentality and character, even though there exist some rare men like that.
So, a self assessment takes you to the upper end of the bell curve. Good for you.  :-DD
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Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1951 on: February 03, 2020, 02:34:38 pm »
So, a self assessment takes you to the upper end of the bell curve. Good for you.  :-DD

 :-DD

 
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Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1952 on: February 03, 2020, 10:42:22 pm »
You have a very strange view of how things work. At any point in the history of engineering most engineering activities were reduced to rote (i.e. not rocket science), but the things that allowed someone to really prosper were the cutting edge things (i.e. the rocket science). Nothing has changed, or is likely to change for a long time, even if silicon development truly hits a road block beyond 5nm. Without the cutting edge stuff you in the commodity business, and rewards are low. The real money is always in what differentiates you from the bulk of the market.
I think commodity business is the direction where any established industry is inevitably going. When I look at the electronics in my room, it's mostly computers, phones, tablets - devices whose most important spec is what off the shelf components have been packed into them and what 3rd party operating system they run. Some vendors have a "differentiating feature" or two, but that's usually a minor tweak on top of a lot of work that went into building all the core stuff which isn't much different than the next guy's.

It's probably not that innovative or exciting to design yet another laptop around yet another Intel chipset or to redo your board with 01005 passives in place of 0201 to make another fractionally thinner phone model like everybody else, but those things sell so there is money in making them. Somebody even produces all the little screws which hold that stuff together.

So, a self assessment takes you to the upper end of the bell curve. Good for you.  :-DD
I only said that I'm yet to meet a woman who would agree with me on anything. Are you a woman by any chance? :)

By extension, I don't buy into that "men and women are mentally equivalent" stuff. So if you think skill differences have been debunked, I would rather see evidence of that before believing it. Not that I particularly care either way.
 

Online ogden

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1953 on: February 03, 2020, 10:44:03 pm »
So, a self assessment takes you to the upper end of the bell curve. Good for you.  :-DD

:)

 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1954 on: March 01, 2020, 05:30:11 am »
Here we go again, lately popular TechLead @techleadhd posted on twitter this one:



It's definitely descriptive enough :D

If you want this job, please be: African Americans, Latino, Native Americans, and/or Women

https://twitter.com/techleadhd/status/1233768519730253825
 
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Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1955 on: March 01, 2020, 06:33:35 am »
Americans spent over 50 years telling their women that sex is a social construct and that they can have everything that men do.
And they clearly still don't have it, on average. Time to live up to the promise :-+

Dude, there is no point getting triggered by what Americans are doing. Chances are they were doing it before you were born and aren't going to stop before your demise either. That's a lifetime of triggering ;D

Don't become an American and that's all :)
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1956 on: March 01, 2020, 10:34:08 am »
Here we go again, lately popular TechLead @techleadhd posted on twitter this one:

Is that the guy that brags about how much he makes being a "tech lead", and got fleeced by his wife for everything when she left him?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1957 on: March 01, 2020, 03:23:53 pm »
Here we go again, lately popular TechLead @techleadhd posted on twitter this one:

Is that the guy that brags about how much he makes being a "tech lead", and got fleeced by his wife for everything when she left him?

That could explain his anger. ;D

That said, I think the e-mail he posted on Twitter (if it's genuine...) is probably illegal. I don't think you can discriminate people on jobs or internships offers even if it's "positive" discrimination of some kind. At least, not openly. :palm:
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1958 on: March 01, 2020, 03:25:39 pm »
Here we go again, lately popular TechLead @techleadhd posted on twitter this one:

Is that the guy that brags about how much he makes being a "tech lead", and got fleeced by his wife for everything when she left him?


Yes, but I think that there is some sarcasm and perhaps even publicity catching with such statements.

However, this is not about him. He just posted a photo of an email so..
 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1959 on: March 01, 2020, 05:12:08 pm »
That said, I think the e-mail he posted on Twitter (if it's genuine...) is probably illegal. I don't think you can discriminate people on jobs or internships offers even if it's "positive" discrimination of some kind. At least, not openly. :palm:
You haven't interacted with American software industry in a long time, have you?

How about just visit the link visible in the photo? ;)
https://uncf.org/the-latest/oracle-developer-scholars-program-application-is-live

United Negro College Fund ;D
At this point I have slight doubts if this website is for real or a maybe 4chan prank, but I could believe it's real.
Not going to bother investigating, will leave it for you guys :=\
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1960 on: March 01, 2020, 06:29:09 pm »
I have a hard time believing that's for real.

https://knowledge.leglobal.org/anti-discrimination-laws-in-usa/

Quote
It is illegal under U.S. federal law to discriminate against an employee, either intentionally or through a disparate impact, on account of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.

Please explain how the posted offer complies with that.

Edit:
additional info from the site I linked to (at the bottom) which is 100% related:
Quote
In general, federal and state anti-discrimination laws prohibit racially-motivated employment decisions, even if the employer’s goal is to promote diversity. However, in extraordinary limited instances where neutral measures have failed, the Supreme Court and EEOC have authorised race/gender-conscious programs and employment selection decisions—provided such actions are taken pursuant to a compliant Voluntary Affirmative Action Plan

So in this case, if the above "program" is indeed not a fake (to be proven), I suppose it must have been officially authorised? Then it would be interesting to see proof of this specific authorization, as it's normally a very exceptional occurence.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2020, 06:52:09 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1961 on: March 01, 2020, 06:36:43 pm »
Here we go again, lately popular TechLead @techleadhd posted on twitter this one:

Is that the guy that brags about how much he makes being a "tech lead", and got fleeced by his wife for everything when she left him?

Some time ago I watched a few of his vids and I put him on Mount Stupid. I wasn’t quite sure what he was trying to do because I can’t imagine how he would work in a team, “techlead” or not. More like techtwat.



However I would agree that he has a point regarding the apparent special status for gender and other groups picked out because of random physical attributes they're born with. It’s so completely counter intuitive to equality of opportunity. It also covers up the reality that no one loses, when this is quite patently no true.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1962 on: March 01, 2020, 06:50:52 pm »
(Attachment Link)

However I would agree that he has a point regarding the apparent special status for gender and other groups picked out because of random physical attributes they're born with. It’s so completely counter intuitive to equality of opportunity. It also covers up the reality that no one loses, when this is quite patently no true.
The thing about that curve is you need the talent to progress beyond mount stupid, or you remain there for your entire life, as many do. I suspect that many of the people who advocate for people being chosen by their superficial characteristics, like skin colour, have no realisation of just how much people are separated by raw ability, and how critical that ability is in real world roles.
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1963 on: March 01, 2020, 07:55:55 pm »
Well, i don't want to defend the guy, he is pretty annoying to me. But i'm pretty confident a lot of his content is just a stupid cynic humor. He has plenty of ridiculous content which is bit funny but cynic bit true.

Just check this one: https://youtu.be/MTCYhbfSAuA

He has plenty of very strange tips, cynic but sometimes true etc.

So, don't focus on him. He is not important. The email and the condition is.

However, from my perspective, living in Bosnia, working mostly outsource projects, this is more like fun and joy.

I can't really feel you and understand you all.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1964 on: March 01, 2020, 10:35:49 pm »
I have a hard time believing that's for real.
[...]
So in this case, if the above "program" is indeed not a fake (to be proven), I suppose it must have been officially authorised?
Looks real to me.  This is the link I got by going to Oracle.com and searching a bit: https://scholarships.uncf.org/Program/Details/192f5fd5-f269-44eb-8629-2a39a5cd29c6

Quoting from the "requirements" section of the above you will find:
Quote
Eligibility Requirements:

* African Americans, Latino, Native Americans, and Women, enrolled full-time at a four-year college or university.

* Students must be a college sophomore at the time of application (Junior Fall 2020).

* Students must be a U.S. Citizen.

* Students must have a minimum cumulative 3.0 GPA on a 4.0 scale.

* Students should have some experience in software coding languages either through class/project work or paid/unpaid work experience.

* Students should provide a current resume in the online application highlighting the following: education, work history, extracurricular activities, honors, awards, community service, and examples of paid or unpaid experience in coding.

And living in the USA, I'm not at all surprised to see this.
 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1965 on: March 02, 2020, 12:11:51 am »
I have a hard time believing that's for real.
https://knowledge.leglobal.org/anti-discrimination-laws-in-usa/
Quote
It is illegal under U.S. federal law to discriminate against an employee, either intentionally or through a disparate impact, on account of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Please explain how the posted offer complies with that.

It's accepted because nobody complains about it or reports those kinds of things. Because if you do you are instantly slandered with the term bigot/*insert derogatory term here*
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1966 on: March 02, 2020, 01:07:49 am »
How dare they require 3.0 GPA on a 4.0 scale! It is so non-inclusive !  :box:
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline coldfiremc

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1967 on: March 02, 2020, 01:10:39 am »
Is pretty sad how after 5000 years of banning women from guilds, works, government and formal education, political and religious limitations, only with counted exceptions(with astronomical talent and intelligence), some fools expect that woman and other minorities suffering of equivalent or comparable discrimination, had the same oportunities, works, education access and chance to take these oportunities. Even more sad is the existence of guys that mock on this and on the people that is trying to revert this infinite damage to mankind.

Seeing this mail, I think that this is no "idendity" related, and I think that Oracle is asking for too much just for a Uni freshman, and kids felt too pretentious if they sent the form to apply because they think that they "just can't". Another thing is that university programs are changing and perhaps losing the "sufficient" depth and coverage that some sectors of the market/industry needs. The mail clearly states that there wasn't any applicants, and not there wasn't any desirable applicants.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 03:02:58 am by coldfiremc »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1968 on: March 02, 2020, 01:28:10 am »
I have a hard time believing that's for real.
https://knowledge.leglobal.org/anti-discrimination-laws-in-usa/
Quote
It is illegal under U.S. federal law to discriminate against an employee, either intentionally or through a disparate impact, on account of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Please explain how the posted offer complies with that.
It's accepted because nobody complains about it or reports those kinds of things. Because if you do you are instantly slandered with the term bigot/*insert derogatory term here*
A Finnish police officer has publicly stated that racism against native Finns in Finland is basically impossible, because <insert political definition of racism, ignoring the dictionary definition>.  In fact, that is now the stated position of the Helsinki Police department.  It is also completely contrary to the Finnish constitution, but they don't care.  I don't understand how or why this can be so, but it is so.   :-//
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1969 on: March 02, 2020, 01:33:14 am »
Even more sad is the existence of guys that mock on this and on the people that is trying to revert this infinite damage to mankind.
Life is not a seesaw, where you can go on by swinging from one extreme to the other.  You don't find balance by pushing the other end down.  Balance only exists in the middle, with a level playing field.

You cannot "revert" damage done to dead people by penalizing people alive now; all you are doing is keeping the swing moving, so it can never find balance.  The fact that you and millions of others do not realize this, and refuse to see this, is the truly sad part.  The circle will continue, with the same errors repeated just on different people, until you realize this.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 01:34:52 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline coldfiremc

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1970 on: March 02, 2020, 02:54:18 am »
Even more sad is the existence of guys that mock on this and on the people that is trying to revert this infinite damage to mankind.
Life is not a seesaw, where you can go on by swinging from one extreme to the other.  You don't find balance by pushing the other end down.  Balance only exists in the middle, with a level playing field.

You cannot "revert" damage done to dead people by penalizing people alive now; all you are doing is keeping the swing moving, so it can never find balance.  The fact that you and millions of others do not realize this, and refuse to see this, is the truly sad part.  The circle will continue, with the same errors repeated just on different people, until you realize this.

jAgh well... Prevent the damage keep going
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1971 on: March 02, 2020, 03:17:19 am »
How dare they require 3.0 GPA on a 4.0 scale! It is so non-inclusive !  :box:

UTS Engineering here in Sydney are very inclusive when it comes to that:
https://www.smh.com.au/education/a-hand-up-not-a-handout-uts-lowers-engineering-entry-bar-for-women-20190828-p52lpp.html
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1972 on: March 02, 2020, 03:23:04 am »
jAgh well... Prevent the damage keep going
Oops, okay; a language issue.

But my point still stands.  You cannot fight racism with tribalism, you cannot support equality with quotas, because even positive discrimination is discrimination.  Those whose the "preventive measures" discriminate against haven't done anything wrong personally, so even positive discrimination just perpetuates the cycle, just changing the people who are discriminated against.  The only true egalitarian move is to stop all discrimination.

I'm all for everyone having a fair go; equality of opportunity.  But when you set up discrimination to ensure a more equal outcome, you are the oppressor, not the freedom fighter.

(I'm not using 'you' for you personally, I'm using passive 'you' to mean "those who do this sort of stuff".)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 03:25:52 am by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline coldfiremc

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1973 on: March 02, 2020, 04:03:12 am »
jAgh well... Prevent the damage keep going
Oops, okay; a language issue.

But my point still stands.  You cannot fight racism with tribalism, you cannot support equality with quotas, because even positive discrimination is discrimination.  Those whose the "preventive measures" discriminate against haven't done anything wrong personally, so even positive discrimination just perpetuates the cycle, just changing the people who are discriminated against.  The only true egalitarian move is to stop all discrimination.

I'm all for everyone having a fair go; equality of opportunity.  But when you set up discrimination to ensure a more equal outcome, you are the oppressor, not the freedom fighter.

(I'm not using 'you' for you personally, I'm using passive 'you' to mean "those who do this sort of stuff".)
To certain extent I'm against quotas. Are just a superficial take in this problem. Most of these problems are cultural. Prior to the "post war", lots (not majority of course) of lately considered men work, like computer operation and programming, some electronic instrumentation tasks, and sciences teachers were women. This was particularly strong in UK and SU. However, the postwar, at some moment men got back to newer jobs, office jobs some time, and because the poor coverage of education in women, and the "Women belong to kitchen", women were quickly outnumbered by man. This created even more cultural bias, most time not justified and blind to the facts, so there wasnt only less woman proportionally working, there was less woman entering into the industry/marketplace (Whatever you like to call). Most of time, governments and companies relies in metrics. This not means that metrics represent phoenomena accurately, or at least those particular metrics. So achieve conclusions just touching working people proportions is at best a scam about overcoming discrimination. However metrics like "how many commercials were about woman doing household work?" are a good start to then lately ask "why there's too few girls that wanting to be astronauts?". Like you say, it's not the particular action of some person, is a continuum of actions during long periods of time.
I think quotas can work if act like a bridge, when in the other side, governments and people try to enhance education quality and coverage, preventing violence and drug abuse, and manage migratory events properly. If not, is just metric tampering
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 04:04:54 am by coldfiremc »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1974 on: March 02, 2020, 04:28:45 am »
(I'm not using 'you' for you personally, I'm using passive 'you' to mean "those who do this sort of stuff".)

English is a bitch in this respect, lacking the plural 'you' that most other Indo-european languages use for that task (vous/sie/vosotros/voi etc.). The normal formalism for this in English is to say 'one' to refer to an abstract 3rd person who's not part of the conversion in place of 'you' and write in the third person singular. i.e. "Whatever you do/think" => "Whatever one does/thinks". It sounds rather stilted and a bit old fashioned in my opinion, but it makes one's intent clear, that one is addressing the actions of an abstract person, not the addressee themselves.

One of the things that has made the 'one' construction unpopular and currently little used is that politicians and the like developed a fashion for using it to distance themselves from something being said. So saying "one should consider all the opinions on this matter" when they mean "I am going to sit on the fence and hope no one notices", an equivocator's version of the madman's referring to themselves in the third person. That has made the 'one' form seem perhaps a little pompous sounding when really it's just a run-around for the deficiency of English not having a proper 2nd person plural.

We used to have proper 2nd person pronouns - Thou (singular) and Ye (plural) - but those are completely archaic and no one but a Yorkshireman would understand you if you used them. The King James Bible of 1611 - which was still in active church use when I was a lad - was written with 'thee' and 'ye' and so in the English mind the words are irrevocably linked with religious speech.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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