Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 110844 times)

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Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1975 on: March 02, 2020, 07:00:52 am »
It's accepted because nobody complains about it or reports those kinds of things. Because if you do you are instantly slandered with the term bigot/*insert derogatory term here*
It's accepted because Americans think it will work :popcorn:
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1976 on: March 02, 2020, 12:52:25 pm »
We used to have proper 2nd person pronouns - Thou (singular) and Ye (plural) - but those are completely archaic and no one but a Yorkshireman would understand you if you used them. The King James Bible of 1611 - which was still in active church use when I was a lad - was written with 'thee' and 'ye' and so in the English mind the words are irrevocably linked with religious speech.
I have seen Bibles in modern English use "you" and "YOU" for singular and plural respectively.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1977 on: March 02, 2020, 03:03:32 pm »
I have a hard time believing that's for real.
https://knowledge.leglobal.org/anti-discrimination-laws-in-usa/
Quote
It is illegal under U.S. federal law to discriminate against an employee, either intentionally or through a disparate impact, on account of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Please explain how the posted offer complies with that.

It's accepted because nobody complains about it or reports those kinds of things. Because if you do you are instantly slandered with the term bigot/*insert derogatory term here*

Americans usually don't like to kid with the law. So whether it is usual or not, I still want to know how that can be legal, which was my whole point. I stated this looked "illegal", which pretty much looks like it is, unless it has received a specific authorization (which I don't quite know how that works, but it's apparently very exceptional).

I didn't much care about it being usual - just that it was apparently illegal. It's clearly against discrimination laws, including american ones. While "positive discrimination" is known to be used "behind the scenes" in some countries/contexts, it's usually non-official.

One thing for sure - we have similar anti-discrimination laws, and something like the above would NEVER pass over here. There's no way you could write offers (be it scholarships, job offers, internships) based on gender, ethnicity, etc. whatever they are. Biases over enforcing laws are non-sense and never lead to anything good, and that ultimately weakens them. We all know that still happens almost everywhere, but that's wrong in many ways. Whatever your opinion on a given subject, this is a much more fundamental issue here. Any social or political agenda should never be allowed to bypass the law.

And I can't believe one bit that NO ONE complains. Doesn't make sense if you have the law with you. USA has over 300M people with pretty varied opinions.
My point was not whether it was a usual thing or how americans would typically handle it. It was again just about it violating the law, which it does unless again it has been authorized, in which case the program should certainly mention it clearly with possibly an authorization ID or something?

So apart from general ideas, nobody actually answered my question/point so far.
I had never heard of UNCF, but if someone from them or from Oracle reads this thread and can explain to us how this complies with the law and what they did for that, they'll be welcome. Could also be someone that directly worked on a similar program in another context.

It's possible that this be a very particular case, as if I got it right, it's more about granting scholarships, and maybe there are exceptions to anti-discrimination laws (for instance with quotas) when it comes to scholarships.

Just curious. What I was really pointing out here again is, whereas I personally agree gender politics is itself nasty, if on top of that, it can be followed through against the law, it's even worse. Because once we've gotten to that point, basically anything is possible.


 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1978 on: March 02, 2020, 03:35:53 pm »
Americans usually don't like to kid with the law.
Except for undeclared wars, literal 11 million of US residents being "undocumented aliens" and yes, affirmative action, and maybe something else I forgot.

In related news, Google advertised special stipends for women only on my university in the 2000s, long before the shitshow really took off.

I stated this looked "illegal", which pretty much looks like it is, unless it has received a specific authorization (which I don't quite know how that works, but it's apparently very exceptional).
It really depends on whether the excerpt you quoted means that the SC ruled such programs legal if they obtain a permission on case by case basis or if it ruled that it hereby grants them permission as long as they meet some criteria specified in the ruling. At any rate, if the SC refuses to enforce the letter of the law then you can wipe your backend with the law.

IANAL and IDGAF, screw America and do your homework :P
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 03:58:22 pm by magic »
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1979 on: March 02, 2020, 03:47:25 pm »
If it's targeted at college(university) kids then you have your answer. The system here is leaning hard left and the wheels are falling off. We'll let it hit a tree and fix it later because the loud ones are those who want their agenda pushed. Just look at all of our democrat(some) friends saying free college and we'll pay your loans but no reimbursement for those of us who actually paid our dues(not that most of us would want that). It's all tied to the election cycle right now. I think we'll either see things start to die down in the next year or really ramp up. Hard to say with all the pandering to kids who can vote.

I do hope we can get back to sensibility. Encourage everyone you want but don't actively prevent others from doing what they want. Woman, man, whatever most of us don't care as long as they're the best. I also have to laugh at a 3.0GPA pre-requisite. They used to at LEAST require a 3.5GPA to even bother having a look. Even that wasn't a high bar.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1980 on: March 02, 2020, 05:54:15 pm »
To certain extent I'm against quotas. Are just a superficial take in this problem. Most of these problems are cultural. Prior to the "post war", lots (not majority of course) of lately considered men work, like computer operation and programming, some electronic instrumentation tasks, and sciences teachers were women. This was particularly strong in UK and SU. However, the postwar, at some moment men got back to newer jobs, office jobs some time, and because the poor coverage of education in women, and the "Women belong to kitchen", women were quickly outnumbered by man. This created even more cultural bias, most time not justified and blind to the facts, so there wasnt only less woman proportionally working, there was less woman entering into the industry/marketplace (Whatever you like to call).
Ok.  However, right now, if I watch a commercial, I am most likely to see either a white woman, or a white woman and a black man.  If there are people from various ethnicities, the white male is a metrosexual urbanite.  I never see someone like me there, and I'm dime a dozen here in Finland.  According to your logic, I am now being oppressed just as much as women were post-war.  How is that equality, or moral/proper in any way?  It's just oppressing a different set of people, isn't it?

A more important point is that at-home-moms are much happier than working women, according to surveys.  On average, women in the 1950s were happier than women in 2010s.  I personally would prefer helping people be happy, rather than fit in some preconceived notion of "righteousness".

(Do note that I completely agree with your core intent: we want a world with less injustice and evil, and more happiness in it, for each and every individual.  I only strongly disagree with your solution methods, and find them rather dangerous and not helpful at all.  I am willing to bet this extends to 90% or more of those participating here.)
 

Offline coldfiremc

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1981 on: March 02, 2020, 06:18:58 pm »
To certain extent I'm against quotas. Are just a superficial take in this problem. Most of these problems are cultural. Prior to the "post war", lots (not majority of course) of lately considered men work, like computer operation and programming, some electronic instrumentation tasks, and sciences teachers were women. This was particularly strong in UK and SU. However, the postwar, at some moment men got back to newer jobs, office jobs some time, and because the poor coverage of education in women, and the "Women belong to kitchen", women were quickly outnumbered by man. This created even more cultural bias, most time not justified and blind to the facts, so there wasnt only less woman proportionally working, there was less woman entering into the industry/marketplace (Whatever you like to call).
Ok.  However, right now, if I watch a commercial, I am most likely to see either a white woman, or a white woman and a black man.  If there are people from various ethnicities, the white male is a metrosexual urbanite.  I never see someone like me there, and I'm dime a dozen here in Finland.  According to your logic, I am now being oppressed just as much as women were post-war.  How is that equality, or moral/proper in any way?  It's just oppressing a different set of people, isn't it?

A more important point is that at-home-moms are much happier than working women, according to surveys.  On average, women in the 1950s were happier than women in 2010s.  I personally would prefer helping people be happy, rather than fit in some preconceived notion of "righteousness".

(Do note that I completely agree with your core intent: we want a world with less injustice and evil, and more happiness in it, for each and every individual.  I only strongly disagree with your solution methods, and find them rather dangerous and not helpful at all.  I am willing to bet this extends to 90% or more of those participating here.)
Where and when?!
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1982 on: March 02, 2020, 06:31:54 pm »
... I never see someone like me there, and I'm dime a dozen here in Finland. ...

Just for the hell of it, I decided to run an image search against "Finnish man" just to see what a 'typical' Finnish man looked like. I didn't expect much of a surprise, I've worked with a lot of Finnish guys.

I expected a lot like these:



the odd one like this



the odd humorous one like this


but I didn't expect quite so many of these leatherboys


Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1983 on: March 02, 2020, 06:33:52 pm »
In the US, as you pointed out US and SU in particular. For the more recent developments, see Stevenson and Wolfers, The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness, 2009 (PDF).  It is not a secret in peer-reviewed literature.  The only peer-reviewed publications that show otherwise are those small clusters of gender studies that refer to each other but nothing else (so the "peers" are just a tiny cluster of a few like-minded people), which is why I don't put any weight on them.

I don't want to give you a full list of publications, because then I would be barraged by how "biased" my references are.  Do your own research.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1984 on: March 02, 2020, 06:38:04 pm »
Quote
A more important point is that at-home-moms are much happier than working women, according to surveys.  On average, women in the 1950s were happier than women in 2010s.  I personally would prefer helping people be happy, rather than fit in some preconceived notion of "righteousness".
Where and when?!
Studies in a number of western countries show that women's sense of happiness and well being has been steadily falling since the 1950s. I suspect that if they separately measured single and married women in the 1950s, they would find the married ones were happier than the single ones, and the single ones were more like current women. Most single women in the 1950s had to work, but generally stopped working when they married or when they became pregnant. Nothing destroys happiness like your next meal being tied to working 9 to 5 at a shitty job. That's all most people have, a shitty job. Careers, with some measure of satisfaction, are for the fortunate few.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 08:08:48 pm by coppice »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1985 on: March 02, 2020, 06:54:55 pm »
I decided to run an image search against "Finnish man" just to see what a 'typical' Finnish man looked like.
Finns are genetically separate from other Europeans.  Haplogroup U5 is much more common in Finns. The original European hunter-gatherers that populated large parts of Europe before the early farmers appeared are outside the genetic variation of modern populations, but most similar to Finnish individuals.  Phenologically, there is quite a bit of internal variation, from Savolaxids to Tavastids to ScandoLappids (most Sami individuals are basically indistinguishable from Finns, genetically).

Me, I look like an angry potato (according to a lady who declined an impromptu date).

Finnish prehistory and genetics is an especially sore point for me, because I find it interesting, but for political reasons the "prevailing truth" here in Finland is that Finns are newcomers from a somewhere in the river Volga.  Because the genetics information says otherwise, they're ignored, and instead the oddball theories from linguists are used as the Source of Truth.  Most importantly, Finns are not aboriginals, because we have our own country.  :rant:

I didn't expect quite so many of these leatherboys
Those are because of Tom of Finland, who arguably had a big influence in United States gay culture from the fifties all through the eighties.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1986 on: March 02, 2020, 10:11:07 pm »
I have a hard time believing that's for real.
https://knowledge.leglobal.org/anti-discrimination-laws-in-usa/
Quote
It is illegal under U.S. federal law to discriminate against an employee, either intentionally or through a disparate impact, on account of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Please explain how the posted offer complies with that.

It's accepted because nobody complains about it or reports those kinds of things. Because if you do you are instantly slandered with the term bigot/*insert derogatory term here*

Americans usually don't like to kid with the law. So whether it is usual or not, I still want to know how that can be legal, which was my whole point. I stated this looked "illegal", which pretty much looks like it is, unless it has received a specific authorization (which I don't quite know how that works, but it's apparently very exceptional).

I didn't much care about it being usual - just that it was apparently illegal. It's clearly against discrimination laws, including american ones. While "positive discrimination" is known to be used "behind the scenes" in some countries/contexts, it's usually non-official.

One thing for sure - we have similar anti-discrimination laws, and something like the above would NEVER pass over here.

The UTS thing here in Australia would normally be illegal, but it was approved by our anti-discrimination body  :palm:
https://www.uts.edu.au/news/education/breaking-down-barriers-gender-equality?fbclid=IwAR0xBryrr-kF6ivi19owdQsDbiNIEVyPfwEQB_z_EjN74mY0wG_8nAqXjVU

Quote
The move is intended to encourage more women to consider degrees and careers in professions that have been male dominated for decades.  UTS sought and secured approval by the NSW Anti-Discrimination Board to add the adjustment points.

I tweeted at the time that the entire anti-discrimination board should be sacked, it's ridiculous.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 10:13:44 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1987 on: March 02, 2020, 10:29:46 pm »
It will be interesting to see what the end result actually turns out to be. It's possible that someone less competent becomes an engineer and is responsible for an accident that kills a bunch of people, the fallout from that would be interesting. A more likely result I think is that most of the people who were accepted due to the lower bar end up failing or dropping out prior to completing their degree. Others will graduate but have trouble getting hired or keeping a job. Some will get the job and then decide that engineering is actually quite boring to them and leave the field. At least a handful will probably turn out to be good engineers despite the rough start.

Ultimately the impact on those who genuinely love engineering and want to be engineers may turn out to be minimal. Possibly the worst aspect is that limited university capacity is squandered on some number of people who won't really benefit from it, displacing others who would. Ultimately I think things will self correct, but the situation will likely get worse before it gets better.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1988 on: March 02, 2020, 10:46:45 pm »
I decided to run an image search against "Finnish man" just to see what a 'typical' Finnish man looked like.
Finns are genetically separate from other Europeans.  Haplogroup U5 is much more common in Finns. The original European hunter-gatherers that populated large parts of Europe before the early farmers appeared are outside the genetic variation of modern populations, but most similar to Finnish individuals.  Phenologically, there is quite a bit of internal variation, from Savolaxids to Tavastids to ScandoLappids (most Sami individuals are basically indistinguishable from Finns, genetically).

Me, I look like an angry potato (according to a lady who declined an impromptu date).

The front of a QSL card I received from Finland - OH4MDY, Reijo Laitinen. Note the ice hanging from his mustache ...

942506-0
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1989 on: March 03, 2020, 01:27:14 am »
I raise you with

(It's from january 2016, a reader submission to a Finnish newspaper, a particularly cold spell in Finland.  Not the coldest for me, though; I remember one Christmas and New Year when the temps fell down to -45°C up north (above the Arctic Circle).  We stayed inside, for obvious reasons.  The air was a bit too "spiky" to breath for longer than 10-15 minutes at a time, even with arctic-appropriate apparel -- snowmobiling overalls with a foil layer and other magicks.)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 01:31:22 am by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1990 on: March 03, 2020, 04:06:32 am »
(For what it is worth, based on my observations (having known both home-maker and stereotypical born entrepreneurs of both sexes), I think statistically, most women would be happiest when dividing their time between part-time work and mom-at-home.  It is the same for men, except with a larger fraction of individuals on the work-end of the sliding scale.  It's the classic nurturer-provider difference, I guess.  Most importantly, I am only talking about statistics, because every person I've ever known has been different.  This kind of stuff should affect how we structure human societies in an effort to have everyone a possibility for fulfilling happiness; but should have nothing to do with how we treat individuals.)
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1991 on: March 04, 2020, 10:03:01 am »
https://www.miragenews.com/macquarie-university-an-employer-of-choice-for-gender-equality/

Quote
Macquarie University an Employer of Choice for Gender Equality
Macquarie University has today been recognised as an Employer of Choice for Gender Equality (EOCGE) by the Workplace Gender Equality Agency (WGEA), for its progress towards gender equity.

Criteria met by the University to achieve EOCGE recognition includes leadership, learning and development, gender remuneration gaps, flexible working and other initiatives to support family responsibilities, employee consultation, preventing sex-based harassment and discrimination, and targets for improving gender equality outcomes.

 :palm:
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1992 on: March 05, 2020, 06:03:00 pm »
The UTS thing here in Australia would normally be illegal, but it was approved by our anti-discrimination body  :palm:
https://www.uts.edu.au/news/education/breaking-down-barriers-gender-equality?fbclid=IwAR0xBryrr-kF6ivi19owdQsDbiNIEVyPfwEQB_z_EjN74mY0wG_8nAqXjVU

That's unbelievable. :palm:

Whatever the goal - which is dubious here as we have discussed extensively, but even if it were perfectly valid - this is a perfect illustration of "the end justifies the means" IMO, which is completely unethical in itself and as I said earlier, just weakens society.
 

Online Gregg

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1993 on: March 05, 2020, 07:08:21 pm »
The problem with the end justifying the means is that there never is an end.  :palm:

As soon as anyone or any group are officially declared “special” and are given special privileges, many others scramble for reasons to also deserve special privileges while the remainder of the population loses incentive and morale.   |O

Life is not fair and never will be.  But taking away motivation and making society less fair while falsely labeling it “equality” is largely the result of the squeaky wheel syndrome.  And so called “social” media is only amplifying the squeaks; it could certainly called “anti-social media” in many cases.  :rant:
 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1994 on: March 05, 2020, 11:37:19 pm »
The UTS thing here in Australia would normally be illegal, but it was approved by our anti-discrimination body  :palm:
https://www.uts.edu.au/news/education/breaking-down-barriers-gender-equality?fbclid=IwAR0xBryrr-kF6ivi19owdQsDbiNIEVyPfwEQB_z_EjN74mY0wG_8nAqXjVU

from that press release:
Quote
Research shows that organisations with gender diverse leadership teams and boards are more successful than those with less diversity, and that women enable teams to perform more effectively, including in innovation-oriented businesses.

I would really like to see how this "research" was performed.  Skilled, intelligent, creative, and cooperative people make teams perform more effectively.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1995 on: March 18, 2020, 08:26:53 pm »


from that press release:
Quote
Research shows that organisations with gender diverse leadership teams and boards are more successful than those with less diversity, and that women enable teams to perform more effectively, including in innovation-oriented businesses.

I would really like to see how this "research" was performed.  Skilled, intelligent, creative, and cooperative people make teams perform more effectively.

It’s taken as a given. “Research shows” and then when you start to dig there’s nothing, or what slim pickings there are are self-serving and don’t withstand the bare minimum of scrutiny. One of my clients is pushing this stuff and you can tell it’s really not favoured by the vast majority of managers and grunts alike. But the power dynamic is such that it’s not up for questioning, it’s a dogma that you have to accept.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1996 on: March 18, 2020, 08:46:23 pm »


from that press release:
Quote
Research shows that organisations with gender diverse leadership teams and boards are more successful than those with less diversity, and that women enable teams to perform more effectively, including in innovation-oriented businesses.

I would really like to see how this "research" was performed.  Skilled, intelligent, creative, and cooperative people make teams perform more effectively.

It’s taken as a given. “Research shows” and then when you start to dig there’s nothing, or what slim pickings there are are self-serving and don’t withstand the bare minimum of scrutiny. One of my clients is pushing this stuff and you can tell it’s really not favoured by the vast majority of managers and grunts alike. But the power dynamic is such that it’s not up for questioning, it’s a dogma that you have to accept.
Its amazing how much "research" outside the hard sciences turns out to be nothing but assertions. I guess some people find it easy to confuse the two...... at least when it serves their interests.
 


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