Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 72591 times)

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Online Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #250 on: August 08, 2018, 12:45:26 am »
For the most part this discussion is focused on larger companies though because they are most often the target of accusations of discrimination against women.

Some large companies have the same problem as government ... they try to pretend equality is some force of nature and they can just forced it down the line without thinking about the costs, which can't exist in their ideology. Then the department head looks at his budget and he starts thinking as if he's running a small company.

This article had a nice quote :
"Teresa, a paediatrician, has had three children “on the NHS” and is planning a fourth. “Work’s undemanding right now, so I reckon it would be a good time to get the morning sickness out of the way. After the baby I’ll take a year off and train for a triathlon.” Unsurprisingly, studies show three female doctors have to be trained to produce the same “work time output” as two men. "

Oy vey if there is a wage gap though ... we are equal don't ya know.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:50:54 am by Marco »
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #251 on: August 08, 2018, 01:07:58 am »
How did they control for the predicted average loss of productivity and additional costs for pregnancy? What is the average cost of menstruation related productivity loss to employers and how did they control for it?

Somehow it all equals out with lets say men's greater propensity to have hobby/diy accidents, it has to, because the universe demands equality to be fact. No evidence required, no common sense allowed.

what's that got to do with the fundamental nature of sex/gender discrimination that's highlighted in the experiment?

What's that got to do with the fact that if you present one job application to multiple hirers with only the name different you get a provable bias towards the applications with male names on:
1) recommendation as suitable for the role
2) recommended starting salary
3) indication of willingness to mentor.


Also, your repeated and continued obsession with menstruation (and the huge issue you seem to have with it as a total no-go for any woman's compatibility with a modern office routine) is kinda weird....
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:16:05 am by julianhigginson »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #252 on: August 08, 2018, 01:17:32 am »

What's that got to do with the fact that if you present one job application to multiple hirers with only the name different you get a provable bias towards the applications with male names on:
1) recommendation as suitable for the role
2) recommended starting salary
3) indication of willingness to mentor.


What is your source for this statement? Is this engineering jobs? Because it is exactly opposite of what I have observed, and what I have seen reported elsewhere. I have been in the tech industry for ~20 years and everything I have seen indicates that women who apply have a MUCH higher chance of being called into interview, and a significantly higher chance of being hired.

As I have stated several times, at a past job where I was part of the hiring loop, the applications we received were ~95% men, 5% women, and yet we had around 30-35% women working there, so what sort of math do I need to do in order for this to show a hiring bias against women? You have been silent on this one.

You keep making claims, yet I have seen no data to back it up, and my own experience is that it is flat out not true, at least in the American tech industry. I on the other hand have *directly seen* bias in favor of women, and discrimination in favor of women, policies deliberately put in place in attempt to force closer to a 50:50 gender ratio by literally setting the bar lower and giving preferential treatment to female applicants. Could you explain to me how this is fair, and again, how it demonstrates bias against women?
 

Online Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #253 on: August 08, 2018, 01:28:21 am »
what's that got to do with the fundamental nature of sex/gender discrimination that's highlighted in the experiment?

If you don't control for it, it leaves open the possibility that the discrimination is justified.

1 The reliability in filling the position for a given length of time is part of suitability.
2 Potential productivity differences and different long term value to the department.
3 Potential differences in the long term returns of the mentoring to the department.

They aren't running a charity.
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Also, your repeated and continued obsession with menstruation (and the huge issue you seem to have with it as a total no-go for any woman't compatibility with a modern office routine) is kinda creepy.

I'm merely proving that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:30:18 am by Marco »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #254 on: August 08, 2018, 01:39:27 am »
I'm merely proving that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.

I have to disagree there, and if anything your stance is lending credibility to the claims of discrimination. If someone has taken long absences from employment that will be reflected in their work history and experience, and people with less work history and experience are paid less. I don't know about in other countries but in the US maternity/paternity leave is not mandated and when it is offered, 6 weeks is typical. I see nothing to indicate that women are any less capable or productive than men, and I would certainly not make that that assumption when hiring. If someone is missing so much work that they are not getting the job done then they will generally get fired, regardless of gender. If someone wishes to take a few years off to be a stay at home mom (or dad) they will generally lose seniority and will earn less money. If someone (of either gender) decides to work part time in order to be home more to raise children, they will earn less money. In the grand scheme of things there is no inherent reason that a woman should be any less productive. There are more than enough men who are lazy and don't get the job done.
 
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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #255 on: August 08, 2018, 01:42:43 am »

the issue is that article is ONE LITTLE THING written about a year ago, about a little scholarship that only has two positions (and some really savage other limitations around startup status and personal income) and here we have a bunch of grown men jumping up and down and screaming about just the gender aspect of it

Err, the entire point of the thing is gender. There is no other aspect.

the issue I have is this is one inconsequential little thing that you basically have to be working for free to even access..  and for what? $4000? a drop in the bucket compared to the costs of everything else required in a hardware startup of the type they have required applicants to be working for FREE for, before even being eligible for this

And the article is a year old... for such a tiny inconsequential thing.. yet here we have grown men (who wouldn't be in the position of accepting that scholarship even if there was no female requirement!) digging it up just to be complaining about its existence, and crying out how sexist and discriminatory it is.

If you have to dig up a year old article about a $4000 scholarship with just 2 positions in order to try and prove an argument that your own gender has it tough, then you really aren't proving your point.

meanwhile here's another article about what employment is often like for women in tech companies. this was published today. it talks about women being systemically ignored, sometimes abused, and basically hounded out of their roles. In one particular company. (now I'm waiting for a bunch of guys to chime in with "but maybe women just don't *like* working for riot games??")
https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T

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, while doing all they can to deny any real evidence presented of real structural discrimination in favour of men.

Only that wasn't the reasoning given by the scholarship person in question.

my point is the scholarship is tiny, and more or less practically useless to the point of being irrelevant.

it's tiny, privately funded by what looks like one person's whim,  and has 2 positions, and most people who are not independently wealthy couldn't even have a "job" that would qualify them for the scholarship, anyway... (which gets us onto another really massive issue with modern startup culture which would need its own thread)

but look at the emotional responses about "discrimination" we get over this tiny irrelevant non-datapoint?

Can you just imagine the response in here if if the experiment I linked had shown the bias in tech against male applicant names that it shows against female names?
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #256 on: August 08, 2018, 01:53:30 am »
but look at the emotional responses about "discrimination" we get over this tiny irrelevant non-datapoint?

Can you just imagine the response in here if if the experiment I linked had shown the bias in tech against male applicant names that it shows against female names?


I think the issue is this. Would you be ok with a tiny, insignificant scholarship that was for men only? Can you honestly say that the internet would not explode over this tiny, insignificant data point?

Once again I have provided many examples of active, sanctioned discrimination against men and bias toward hiring women in the tech industry, including actual examples of affirmative action policies and once again you remain silent about this.
 

Online Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #257 on: August 08, 2018, 02:19:52 am »
I don't know about in other countries but in the US maternity/paternity leave is not mandated and when it is offered, 6 weeks is typical.
At Princeton 10 weeks paid and 12 weeks unpaid for the professional position. Which is course assuming they don't just drop out after giving birth, mothers are far more likely to drop out.
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If someone wishes to take a few years off to be a stay at home mom (or dad) they will generally lose seniority and will earn less money.
They also represent a substantial loss of investment on the part of the employer.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #258 on: August 08, 2018, 02:20:25 am »
If you don't control for it, it leaves open the possibility that the discrimination is justified.

1 The reliability in filling the position for a given length of time is part of suitability.
2 Potential productivity differences and different long term value to the department.
3 Potential differences in the long term returns of the mentoring to the department.

They aren't running a charity.

before you go to much further here you should know that the absolute best you could even get with this approach (and you're far, far far away from even that)  is an argument that current practices in regard to employment in capitalist systems are *also* discriminatory in a way that either reinforces or fits in with sex/gender discrimination.

On top of that, you will open things up for HIGHLY problematic discrimination on age, race, and plenty of other things.

On top of that, without controlling for variation inside the groups you'd like to discriminate against, the data is meaningless if it's not showing *massive* differences.

Human workers have massive variability across their productive output already. so if you can prove a 2% variation in productivity between women of east asian descent between the ages of 24-45 vs men of middle eastern descent between the ages of 204-281... well great.. but if the variation inside those populations is 100%, well, what's the point?

I can tell you there's white male engineers I know, that I'd hire to do a task even if they could only give 30% performance, they'd be better than an average white male engineer doing the work at 100% performance.. And there's white male engineers I know that I'd never hire to do a job because even at 100% performance they'd do a job that would most probably have been better if it was done by someone picked at random. And in one extreme case - better if it was just not done at all.

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Also, your repeated and continued obsession with menstruation (and the huge issue you seem to have with it as a total no-go for any woman't compatibility with a modern office routine) is kinda creepy.

I'm merely proving that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.

the economic conclusion of that study is problematic, without detailed description of how it goes from work days lost to productive output. In technical fields (for pretty much anything except technical process work) work hours are not fungible. that is, work done in one particular hour doesn't have the same value as work done in any other hour. I see no way in which knowledge workers could have the impact of this kind of survey mapped to impacts in actual productive output.

To actually prove your point you would need a significantly well run study to show in a CONTROLLED way, that all other aspects taken into account, a women of the same ability and background and given the same support and opportunities in the role, is going to be less productive in a role than a man. And then you'd actually have to show, through rigorous statistical analysis and other supporting studies, that this was not because of systemic bias against the woman.

Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)
 
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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #259 on: August 08, 2018, 02:36:54 am »
I think the issue is this. Would you be ok with a tiny, insignificant scholarship that was for men only? Can you honestly say that the internet would not explode over this tiny, insignificant data point?

Once again I have provided many examples of active, sanctioned discrimination against men and bias toward hiring women in the tech industry, including actual examples of affirmative action policies and once again you remain silent about this.

Seroiusly - scholarship schmolarship. If it matters that much to you, put up a gofundme and shop it around the MRA (WFL!) groups on the net to get $8k donated to fund your own one just for guys, with the same crazy restrictions as this one. I promise I won't complain.

Now, a women only scholarship track with many positions  (full education and living expenses) through something like Harvard with lower academic entry requirements than an equivalent opportunity that included men.... that would be something to at least talk about.. does that exist? I know of sports scholarships, but their value and availability seems to favour men who play men's sports well.

Please, show concrete examples of something actually meaningful. That is,  things that would make a real world "affirmitive action" difference in the world and end up with a woman having a career as an engineer that a man would have otherwise had.

Meanwhile, here's a whole company in the tech industry, chewing up a bunch of their own actual employees with an extremely toxic culture, ripping shreds out of their careers and spitting them out (but not without relatively consistently getting them to sign a non-disparige agreement! hmmm. almost like they know exactly what they are doing, eh?) right now.....
https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #260 on: August 08, 2018, 02:43:25 am »
meanwhile, today in Japan:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/tokyo-university-apologises-for-rigging-marks-to-exclude-women/10086924

but yes.. poor long suffereing men have it sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard in the big bad mean world ruled by evil feminismers.
 

Online Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #261 on: August 08, 2018, 03:08:01 am »
On top of that, you will open things up for HIGHLY problematic discrimination on age, race, and plenty of other things.

These are not problematic to me. I think trying to force people to overvalue employees (from their point of view) with vague hard to enforce laws does little but make lawyers happy ... and cause them to discriminate at the hardest to sue for point in time, hiring.

Let private citizens discriminate and let the market work it out, use subsidies if you think it necessary. All carrot, no stick.
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On top of that, without controlling for variation inside the groups you'd like to discriminate against, the data is meaningless if it's not showing *massive* differences.

When it's a buyer's market the differences don't have to be large for small perceived differences to cause large differences in who gets hired, especially when they can't discriminate on wages. There is very little which helps as much with discrimination as full employment.
 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #262 on: August 08, 2018, 03:17:47 am »
but look at the emotional responses about "discrimination" we get over this tiny irrelevant non-datapoint?

Can you just imagine the response in here if if the experiment I linked had shown the bias in tech against male applicant names that it shows against female names?

I guess you are the one overreacting over this and deflecting by trying to minimize the example mentioned by Dave. Look around you: what is the proportion between women/men only initiatives in engineering and sciences? If you are really honest, you will admit there is not one that targeted men or boys only. And if the marketplace in engineering and sciences is so biased against women as you say, what benefit would this bring, since they would be shunned from all opportunity in their professional life anyways? Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

To my original post, regardless of the significance of this example (or "this tiny datapoint" as you say), you fail to read the underlying message from the organizer that really seemed unfair to several candidates in this case. That is what I pointed out, not the final solution of this whole debacle.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #263 on: August 08, 2018, 03:47:02 am »
Seroiusly - scholarship schmolarship. If it matters that much to you, put up a gofundme and shop it around the MRA (WFL!) groups on the net to get $8k donated to fund your own one just for guys, with the same crazy restrictions as this one. I promise I won't complain.

Now, a women only scholarship track with many positions  (full education and living expenses) through something like Harvard with lower academic entry requirements than an equivalent opportunity that included men.... that would be something to at least talk about.. does that exist? I know of sports scholarships, but their value and availability seems to favour men who play men's sports well.

Please, show concrete examples of something actually meaningful. That is,  things that would make a real world "affirmitive action" difference in the world and end up with a woman having a career as an engineer that a man would have otherwise had.

Meanwhile, here's a whole company in the tech industry, chewing up a bunch of their own actual employees with an extremely toxic culture, ripping shreds out of their careers and spitting them out (but not without relatively consistently getting them to sign a non-disparige agreement! hmmm. almost like they know exactly what they are doing, eh?) right now.....
https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T

I've never heard of Riot Games, can I assume you worked there and witnessed this and can attest to the fact that they had an anti-women culture? Perhaps you could inform us as to how an incident at one little game company validates claims that this is widespread throughout the entire industry? You do realize, don't you, that anti-disparagement contracts are standard procedure at nearly any company any time an employee is laid off for any reason? Normally it's part of the terms required in accepting a severance package.

Look, I don't really care about that particular scholarship, it's only one tiny example, but it's one that a few people here including you have fixated on. It's a tiny example of a much broader problem of being marginalized and told that our (mens) opinions and experiences are irrelevant. I can only speak for my own experience which is with some of the largest tech companies in the world and there is absolutely bias. The bias is not against women though, the hiring bar is lower for women and minorities, a FAR larger percentage of female applicants get onsite interviews, and a significantly larger percentage of women who are interviewed get hired. I'm no making his up, I've been directly involved. Since it has been glossed over yet again I will reiterate. We had an approximately 5% female/95% male application rate, we had approximately 30% female, 70% male ratio of employees, so where is the discrimination here? If so many women want to be engineers then why aren't they applying?

Dave posted his viewership status which showed 98% male and 2% female, again, where is the discrimination? Why aren't all these masses of women who are into engineering not watching any of these engineering related channels?

I've mentioned several examples, nursing, early childhood education, veterinary medicine which are all heavily female dominated, do you agree that this is clearly due to discrimination and warrants discriminatory affirmative action programs to equal out the gender balance in these fields? If not, why do you feel differently about these than engineering?



Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)

Which is precisely what you have done in this thread, repeatedly. Ironic isn't it?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 03:49:13 am by james_s »
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #264 on: August 08, 2018, 03:59:11 am »
I guess you are the one overreacting over this and deflecting by trying to minimize the example mentioned by Dave. Look around you: what is the proportion between women/men only initiatives in engineering and sciences? If you are really honest, you will admit there is not one that targeted men or boys only.

the article that's over a year old, that someone had to actually go and dredge up, just to lift up as a huge shocking example of a massive blow against man-dom.

It's so petty and ineffective, it's absolutely ridiculous.  Show the actual real world harm in that useless 2 seat "scholarship" that you have to be independently wealthy, or have a family that can afford to support you, in order to qualify for.

And please do make an equivalent for men, with the same useless constraints. I promise I won't be upset. (and I won't apply for it, cause screw not having an income)

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And if the marketplace in engineering and sciences is so biased against women as you say, what benefit would this bring, since they would be shunned from all opportunity in their professional life anyways?

aaah good old "it's so hard to fix a problem, so rather than doing the first step, let's just leave everything just as it is" - the favoured approach by the person who is benefiting from systemised oppression.

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Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

lucky for them, they never worked at riot, I guess.

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To my original post, regardless of the significance of this example (or "this tiny datapoint" as you say), you fail to read the underlying message from the organizer that really seemed unfair to several candidates in this case. That is what I pointed out, not the final solution of this whole debacle.

you are banging on about a ridiculous little nothing prize, that was published a year ago.

meanwhile here's just some stuff from right now...  seriously. get some perspective.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/tokyo-university-apologises-for-rigging-marks-to-exclude-women/10086924

https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #265 on: August 08, 2018, 04:59:18 am »
I've never heard of Riot Games, can I assume you worked there and witnessed this and can attest to the fact that they had an anti-women culture? Perhaps you could inform us as to how an incident at one little game company validates claims that this is widespread throughout the entire industry? You do realize, don't you, that anti-disparagement contracts are standard procedure at nearly any company any time an employee is laid off for any reason? Normally it's part of the terms required in accepting a severance package.

Ok, so now we are only allowing people to reference article about places they themselves have worked?? I guess dave's link to that 2 woman scholarship should go too..

and no this isn't the only example of this I have.. it's not even that good, really... this is just *today's* example.  the Uber stuff of a few years ago was  a lot more compelling. But of course I never worked there either, so what would I know?

Similarly I cannot prove that the earth is a roughly spheroidal shape, because I can't claim I have never flown to the moon or into deep space and looked back at it with my own eyes.

You want personal anecdotes, well here I have a 2nd hand one...  I have a friend who works in google, and she has experienced discrimination in day to day interactions with a man. sorry can't out her here she still works there, but she changed her work situation to avoid it. That change included a drop in responsibilities. The guy involved got to keep on doing his thing exactly as before. This was a few years ago.

As for non disparige agreements, seems to me they are getting women who *quit* to sign them, not just reduncancies or firings. that's not normal for my experience or anybody's experience I know of.

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Look, I don't really care about that particular scholarship, it's only one tiny example, but it's one that a few people here including you have fixated on.

I'm fixated on other people's infatuation with it. I wish you'd all talk about something real as an example of discrimination against men in tech. my point is the fact that so many want to bang on about it, and people are so desperate to hang onto it, then we can see there's not actually that much in the way of examples you can bring up if this is the best you have.

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It's a tiny example of a much broader problem of being marginalized and told that our (mens) opinions and experiences are irrelevant.

I must be very lucky. I never see that.

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I can only speak for my own experience which is with some of the largest tech companies in the world and there is absolutely bias. The bias is not against women though, the hiring bar is lower for women and minorities, a FAR larger percentage of female applicants get onsite interviews, and a significantly larger percentage of women who are interviewed get hired. I'm no making his up, I've been directly involved. Since it has been glossed over yet again I will reiterate. We had an approximately 5% female/95% male application rate, we had approximately 30% female, 70% male ratio of employees, so where is the discrimination here? If so many women want to be engineers then why aren't they applying?

Look, it's very possible your'e right.. in which case it'd be interesting to see the actual policies surrounding it and the business case behind it...  I don't know what companies you are even talking about, or what visibility you have in the companies through the entire structure though, because you haven't stated.

But I think you could expect that having a policy like that would keep toxic bro culture down a bit.

personal anecdote time:  I have worked in a company where the engineering team (a mix of electronic and mechanical engineers) was expected to form teams around projects, and for each project one engineer would get to be the project leader... there were three of us that got most of the leader roles due to seniority. One was a woman. I noticed at the time that she seemed to often end up with the more mundane, annoying, and generally crappy stuff to lead, while the cool "new dev" projects went to me and the other guy.


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Dave posted his viewership status which showed 98% male and 2% female, again, where is the discrimination? Why aren't all these masses of women who are into engineering not watching any of these engineering related channels?

I don't know..

it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

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I've mentioned several examples, nursing, early childhood education, veterinary medicine which are all heavily female dominated, do you agree that this is clearly due to discrimination and warrants discriminatory affirmative action programs to equal out the gender balance in these fields? If not, why do you feel differently about these than engineering?

why on earth would you assume I don't feel the same way here?  the reason I'm not going on about it here is this isn't what the thread is about. But YES. I agree with you it is also a big problem.. Actually it's the other side of the same issue this thread is meant to be about. I do believe that men in "pure" (non authoritative) caring roles are similarly discounted and discriminated against as women in tech roles.

more anecdote time.  I have a friend who works as an early primary school teacher. He's a guy.
he has repeatedly been threatened with physical abuse by aggressive men (always men, go figure eh) with words along the lines of "go near or touch my children and I'll kill you, faggot!" - it's actually his job to look after their children, along with many others. He has a kid of his own. He's a wonderful caring person. But people are allowed to physically threaten him in his place of work because of their own biases and nothing is ever taken to the police (if it were me in charge, any person who acted like that to any of my staff would have a restraining order with a full exclusion zone covering the school and all surrounding streets, and a criminal record, if at all possible... )

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Which is precisely what you have done in this thread, repeatedly. Ironic isn't it?

where have I done that?
 
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Offline blackfin76

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #266 on: August 08, 2018, 08:22:31 am »
Fuck that ... life's not fair, trying to bludgeon it into being so can make life more annoying as well as unfair. Balance in all things.

how convenient, that we should all just ignore any and all structural inequity in society that happens to benefit you.

As I see it he is just making a correct observation, life is not fair and equality of outcome will never be.  When you talk about 'structural inequity' you make is sound like it is something that is put there in place on purpose. Personally I don't believe in such a conspiracy.
 

Offline blackfin76

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #267 on: August 08, 2018, 08:47:07 am »
I'm merely proving that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.

I have to disagree there, and if anything your stance is lending credibility to the claims of discrimination. If someone has taken long absences from employment that will be reflected in their work history and experience, and people with less work history and experience are paid less. I don't know about in other countries but in the US maternity/paternity leave is not mandated and when it is offered, 6 weeks is typical. I see nothing to indicate that women are any less capable or productive than men, and I would certainly not make that that assumption when hiring. If someone is missing so much work that they are not getting the job done then they will generally get fired, regardless of gender. If someone wishes to take a few years off to be a stay at home mom (or dad) they will generally lose seniority and will earn less money. If someone (of either gender) decides to work part time in order to be home more to raise children, they will earn less money. In the grand scheme of things there is no inherent reason that a woman should be any less productive. There are more than enough men who are lazy and don't get the job done.

In the Netherlands women can take leave for a minimum period of 16 weeks, starting 6 weeks before the delivery and to a minimum of 10 weeks after the delivery. Also for a period of up to nine months after delivery she will be given time of to take care of the child. These activities can take up to 25% of the paid working hours.

Men only get 2 days of, how about that being discriminatory? Ooh wait there is of course a reason for all of this. Not being treated even does not always equal discrimination but to some this nuance is lost.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #268 on: August 08, 2018, 09:38:44 am »
In the Netherlands women can take leave for a minimum period of 16 weeks, starting 6 weeks before the delivery and to a minimum of 10 weeks after the delivery. Also for a period of up to nine months after delivery she will be given time of to take care of the child. These activities can take up to 25% of the paid working hours.

Men only get 2 days of, how about that being discriminatory? Ooh wait there is of course a reason for all of this. Not being treated even does not always equal discrimination but to some this nuance is lost.

No, that isn't right at all. That sucks, and it's unfair. It should change.
I don't agree that new baby related leave should be for women only.
it should be for men too (or the female partner if the mother has one of those instead, or both the men if we are talking gay adoption, or whoever else should have it with whatever arrangements different people come up with)

And more than that - Men should actually be encouraged to take that leave. Without fear that doing so will damage their career. (just like women should) Lets have more dads actually being a proper part of their kids lives! (says the dad who missed family dinner tonight, and will be working late in the office to finish something that's currently overdue..)
 
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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #269 on: August 08, 2018, 10:01:25 am »
As I see it he is just making a correct observation, life is not fair and equality of outcome will never be.  When you talk about 'structural inequity' you make is sound like it is something that is put there in place on purpose. Personally I don't believe in such a conspiracy.

I never asked for equality of outcome. I care about basic equality of opportunity.

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #270 on: August 08, 2018, 11:08:01 am »
I guess you are the one overreacting over this and deflecting by trying to minimize the example mentioned by Dave. Look around you: what is the proportion between women/men only initiatives in engineering and sciences? If you are really honest, you will admit there is not one that targeted men or boys only.

the article that's over a year old, that someone had to actually go and dredge up, just to lift up as a huge shocking example of a massive blow against man-dom.

It's so petty and ineffective, it's absolutely ridiculous.  Show the actual real world harm in that useless 2 seat "scholarship" that you have to be independently wealthy, or have a family that can afford to support you, in order to qualify for.
And you still refuse to look around you. Oh well... I can't help you. 

And if the marketplace in engineering and sciences is so biased against women as you say, what benefit would this bring, since they would be shunned from all opportunity in their professional life anyways?

aaah good old "it's so hard to fix a problem, so rather than doing the first step, let's just leave everything just as it is" - the favoured approach by the person who is benefiting from systemised oppression.
Again, deflecting. Read my previous post again, now with true honest eyes. Hint: my description above is a consequence of your way to thinking, not mine.

Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

lucky for them, they never worked at riot, I guess.
No, they work in corporate, academia and as full time mothers managing homes. Not in your insignificant "tiny datapoint" of a company (just because it is on the press it does not make for a widespread problem, especially in 2018).

To my original post, regardless of the significance of this example (or "this tiny datapoint" as you say), you fail to read the underlying message from the organizer that really seemed unfair to several candidates in this case. That is what I pointed out, not the final solution of this whole debacle.

you are banging on about a ridiculous little nothing prize, that was published a year ago.

meanwhile here's just some stuff from right now...  seriously. get some perspective.
Because that is what I was referring on my previous post. Context is all.

Look, I am not saying there was never bias in the workplace - as I mentioned before, I have seen cases in a very distant past and I know of places in the world where such counteracting forces are necessary. However, in western "first world" countries with the heavily PR oriented, excessive apologetic, mob influenced year of 2018, the huge advertisement of isolated cases in small companies creates the impression this is everywhere. If the situation was so widespread, the press would be advertising Caterpillar or GE instead of "Riot Games".
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online BillB

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #271 on: August 08, 2018, 12:05:56 pm »
Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

lucky for them, they never worked at riot, I guess.
No, they work in corporate, academia and as full time mothers managing homes. Not in your insignificant "tiny datapoint" of a company (just because it is on the press it does not make for a widespread problem, especially in 2018).

To be fair, the video game industry is a 36 billion dollar industry as it seems the future of our society involves sitting on one's a$$ playing games rather than working for a living, but I digress.

The Riot story isn't unique to the industry, in fact there was an entire "thing" going on a few years ago called Gamergate.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

The problem I see with women tilting at this particular windmill and their fight against Toxic MasculinityTM is that these games are for the most part competitive aggression incarnate.  That's the target demographic for the games, and they want to draw from that pool for their workforce (because that's how you make successful games).  They will never be able to un-entwine how men socialize from this gaming experience.

Soon, however, the powers that be will just make  Toxic MasculinityTM illegal.  That'll fix it.  ;)

On top of that, without controlling for variation inside the groups you'd like to discriminate against, the data is meaningless if it's not showing *massive* differences.

Human workers have massive variability across their productive output already. so if you can prove a 2% variation in productivity between women of east asian descent between the ages of 24-45 vs men of middle eastern descent between the ages of 204-281... well great.. but if the variation inside those populations is 100%, well, what's the point?
       

This is fallacious, as it doesn't account for the normal probability distribution.  The average difference in height between men and women is small, with much larger in-group variance.  The same with strength.  However, they don't put WNBA players in with NBA players.  Why?  Because they would be soundly outplayed.  Hiring managers and coaches alike aren't looking for average, they are seeking the right tail of the probability distribution.  And as before, small differences in distribution create large tail effects.     
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #272 on: August 08, 2018, 12:15:05 pm »
I never asked for equality of outcome. I care about basic equality of opportunity.

Women have the exact same opportunity as men in education and applying for jobs.
They also face all the same discrimination as men (gender being just one of a great many things people "discriminate" against).
In fact women may have even more opportunity these days as evidenced by various gender campaigns in schools and gender programs at companies.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #273 on: August 08, 2018, 12:23:37 pm »
You want personal anecdotes, well here I have a 2nd hand one...  I have a friend who works in google, and she has experienced discrimination in day to day interactions with a man. sorry can't out her here she still works there, but she changed her work situation to avoid it. That change included a drop in responsibilities. The guy involved got to keep on doing his thing exactly as before. This was a few years ago.

Replace she with he and the sentence is still valid. People (including men) get discriminated against on a whole bunch of things, gender is just one of them. Men get discriminated against in tech companies too based on their gender.

Quote
I don't know..
it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

Utter rubbish.
It's ludicrous to think that a female could join this forum and will find that material (ironically, this thread). There are something like 800 new posts a day and hundreds of thousands of technical posts, the odds of a female finding anything gender related in a random thread is practically zero.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:47:32 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #274 on: August 08, 2018, 12:59:23 pm »
Quote
Dave posted his viewership status which showed 98% male and 2% female, again, where is the discrimination? Why aren't all these masses of women who are into engineering not watching any of these engineering related channels?
I don't know..
it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

It's really easy to explain why.
Off the bat only a small percentage of engineers frequent forums or follow engineering Youtube channels.
Given that the majority of engineers are men, that leaves a smaller number of the same ratio of females to do the same thing.
Factor in that females on average have much less interest in "things" and presumably discussion of said "things" on forums or watching others talk about it on Youtube channels, and combine that with the already low percentage of female engineers compared to male engineers, and bingo, you have your few percent females who frequent forums or watch Youtube videos. If data numbers are low then females can often get rounded down to zero. e.g. if you only have a hundred subscribers, you may have zero females.

It's not rocket science, it's basic outlier statistics.
 


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