Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 70909 times)

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Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2018, 02:42:54 am »
There is an unspoken assumption underlying this paper. That with the same application and only the knowledge of the gender, a man could not be be judged on average more competent and hireable simply for being a man.

err.. no, that's not an unspoken assumption.

It's the the actual finding of the experiment that the paper is reporting.

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Men have certain advantages over women on average. We have larger organs, which makes us hardier and less likely to miss work days.

You're gonna need to provide a good source on the missing work days thing, thanks.

As for anything else, well... have another science:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270278/
lots of rambling in here, and lots of superficial referring to all sorts of stuff as it's obviously an insanely complex issue.
But the takeaway is that while yes - the best performing men do have better results in some basic capabilities than the best women, the worst performing men are also worse than the worst women, and as you approach the averages of both, differences in any natural ability of one binary sex/binary gender over another basically disappear.

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We don't have monthly hormonal cycles screwing with our performance.

Errr...... yeah...... ok.
*backs away very slowly*

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Most importantly, if we are in a relationship and make a baby we aren't biologically forced to take time off

A woman performing a generally non-physical role can give birth and be back at work (if given proper support) in less than a month.
Any details around supply of that support come back to the value we as a society place on people having children.

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and culturally we are much less likely to quit our jobs to take care of it (in that respect Sweden's approach of giving men a huge chunk of take it or leave it parental leave helps a fair bit). Do women also have some inherent advantages because of their different emotional makeup, sure but I don't think they can really compensate.

All else being equal, men are generally better employees simply because of biology and the cultural imperative for women to raise children. An inconvenient truth.

So you agree with us that women are ripped off, in the professional world, by society's expectations of what a woman is and does?
and so, as it's a societal/cultural thing, that's basically just a bunch of conventions?
and so, as we now see it's harmful, as we are the actual building blocks of society, we can choose to make an effort to change those expectations?

Great!

I look forward to you doing what you can in the future to address those problems with practical direct action.
 
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Offline amyk

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2018, 02:46:25 am »
Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well? Or is there a feedback mechanism, where the predominantly male audience sets a certain tone which does not encourage female engineers to join? Nothing intentional, I'm sure -- but those who make up the majority in a group may be less tuned in to signals which the group sends to minorities.
The only mention of gender in this forum is in threads like this, and when someone chooses to exclaim "I'm female!" Other than that it stays pretty much focused on electronics --- no one here cares in the slightest if you're female, male, something in between, or a dog.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2018, 02:54:44 am »
The only mention of gender in this forum is in threads like this, and when someone chooses to exclaim "I'm female!" Other than that it stays pretty much focused on electronics --- no one here cares in the slightest if you're female, male, something in between, or a dog.

That reflects my professional experience too for the most part, except for when someone decides we have to try to force some specific metric of diversity by whatever means possible.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 04:59:13 am by james_s »
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2018, 04:46:59 am »
err.. no, that's not an unspoken assumption.
Sorry, I meant could correctly be judged.
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You're gonna need to provide a good source on the missing work days thing, thanks.
http://norden.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:811504/FULLTEXT06.pdf
"The sickness absence patterns between demo graphic groups are to a high degree similar in the Nordic countries. In general, women have more sickness absence than men."
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Errr...... yeah...... ok.
*backs away very slowly*
https://www.jcpsp.pk/archive/2008/Aug2008/05.pdf
"Study participants (n=172) had mean age of 21.2 + 1.9 years. Eighty-nine (51%) girls met the criteria for PMS recording  to  ICD  –  10,  among  them,  53  (59.5%)  had  mild  PMS,  26  (29.2%)  had  moderate  and  10  (11.2%)  had  severe PMS. Ten (5.8%) girls were found to have Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD) according to DSM – IV criteria. The order  of  frequency  of  symptoms  were  anger,  irritability,  anxiety,  tiredness,  difficult  concentration,  mood  swings  and physical symptoms like breast tenderness and general body discomfort with great impairment in social life / activities and work  efficiency/productivity."
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A woman performing a generally non-physical role can give birth and be back at work (if given proper support) in less than a month.
If she doesn't have post partum depression, for which the aftermath of the hormonal war she waged with her baby won't help (humans have some really screwed up evolutionary quirks in their reproductive mechanics, women get the worst of it).
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So you agree with us that women are ripped off, in the professional world, by society's expectations of what a woman is and does?
Possibly, but part of it is due to the reality of the statistics of what women do. There are few managers who haven't been bit by the reality of young women, maternal leave and the frequent decision to become home makers. Their job isn't to create more equality, their job is to value signal an interest in equality only to the extent necessary for profit optimization.
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and so, as we now see it's harmful, as we are the actual building blocks of society, we can choose to make an effort to change those expectations?
Maybe, but I find regulation often far more harmful than anything it tries to fix. Give men equal subsidized leave to women, I don't care. Have companies value signal to their heart's content, I don't care. The moment you want courts and lawmakers to step in to punish companies for not having the correct wages or diversity according to you, then you get my enmity.

I don't see professional success as all that important in personal actualization. I think the opportunity to become a home maker, western culture and wealth provides many women isn't exactly ripping them off. Sucks for the ones who do want to find it in professional success of course, who will be bit by the statistics and profit optimization, but life can't always be fair. The liberal pretence that it can be is a dangerous fantasy. They would bring us all to a lowest common denominator with no freedom, to achieve equality. Communism.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 07:41:42 am by Marco »
 
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Offline blackfin76

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2018, 08:31:03 am »

I don't see professional success as all that important in personal actualization. I think the opportunity to become a home maker, western culture and wealth provides many women isn't exactly ripping them off. Sucks for the ones who do want to find it in professional success of course, who will be bit by the statistics and profit optimization, but life can't always be fair. The liberal pretence that it can be is a dangerous fantasy. They would bring us all to a lowest common denominator with no freedom, to achieve equality. Communism.

Amen.

Life is not fair and the universe is indifferent. You get what you get, at best we can try to level the playing field and apply the same rules of the game to everyone.
Group identity is a misguided concept because a person is such a complex construct that you simply cannot define it as a subset of traits. The one that is best capable of helping you is you. I understand the need from certain people to act against perceived 'injustice' but what they often forget is that every affirmative action will lead to discrimination against another individual.  Two wrongs don't make a right and this is especially true for 'perceived wrongs'.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2018, 09:51:25 am »
But has it crossed your mind that the "90% male" environment might actually put talented young females off, and make them decide for a different career?

There is no shortage of females being profiled for girls to look up to if they want. It often only takes one person to encourage someone.
The current Australian of the year for example is a female quantum computer scientist.
Of course this is assuming that's it's a good thing that girls only look up to and encouraged by other girls, I'd like to think engineering is above that.

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And wouldn't it be worth some time and effort to change that perception, also by giving above-average visibility to women in engineering, to encourage potential female students to study technical disciplines?

Not if it means someone else deserves it more misses out.

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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?

Yes, it it.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%

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Or is there a feedback mechanism, where the predominantly male audience sets a certain tone which does not encourage female engineers to join? Nothing intentional, I'm sure -- but those who make up the majority in a group may be less tuned in to signals which the group sends to minorities.

See above comment.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2018, 09:59:59 am »
Hi Dave,
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean women engineers are underrepresented in the press, I just meant as numbers in the workforce. Engineering is as you point out a very male dominated profession but there's no reason it should be more so than any other profession other than peoples perception of engineering maybe puts some women off choosing it as a career.

That's not the case. Read the scientific literature on the matter and you'll find that women aren't as innately interested in "things" as males are.
It's quite a well researched topic.
This is why you'll never get 50/50 no matter how hard you try. Just like you won't get 50/50 in nursing or child care.

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My point was, the article referenced by the OP is a non-issue, and the OP's continual reference to our genetalia is more than a little ridiculous.

I agree it's non issues, but I do understand the intent of the OP. Gender politics in recent years has infested many areas or society, often to an extreme, and many people are getting sick of it.

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My only objection here is your final line, I really don't think we have more opportunities than our male colleagues.

Really?
Here in Australia you have your own startup accelerator - woman only.
https://www.shestarts.com/

Not to mention the media will love you. Do you think the uBeam or Theronos founders would have been features nearly as much if they weren't attractive young females? The media lap it up.
Women certainly can have advantages in this field, and my advice is to take every opportunity you can get.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2018, 11:18:31 am »
I've seen practically no discrimination towards females in the industry in my 30 years, just because they are female, other factors are vastly more important than gender.

To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.

of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

Any maybe that's why those female students came to my lab to ask about gender discrimination in the industry...
But ajb likely thinks that was a big mistake on their part because a males almost 30 years experience in the industry has absolutely zero value, less than useless in fact  ::)
And only talking to females about it couldn't possibly lead to any sort of self selection bias, and it has absolutely no chance of putting girls off entering the field if all they hear is horrible stories of discrimination.
And of course there is no way a female could possibly over-exaggerate or mis-interpret discrimination were it didn't exist... you simply must believe them...
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2018, 11:24:19 am »
I've seen positive discrimation everywhere I've been: when a girl does something wrong, it's alright...
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2018, 11:27:57 am »
I have never been involved in recruiting where there were more than a couple of percent of CVs from women in the pile. Its usually highest if you are accepting applications from fresh graduates. Most people, men and women, working through the CVs will pick out the women for particular discussion, much as they would pick out any other CVs with an uncommon aspect to them - people who started late in life, had a difficult journey through life, have had a very mixed career, etc. In general the women are treated favourably, because most people would like their department to be a little more mixed than the usual arrangement where the only diversity is whether a person is happier doing digital or analogue work. I'm not sure how the actual hiring record has gone overall, but I do know the women have been a lot more likely to be called for interview than a man with an otherwise similar CV.

That's my experience as well. Female applicants were so low that it's "novel" so to speak, it stands out, and I'll have given females interview preference over males due to this. Not at the expense of perceived aptitude/experience of course, but I can't interview everyone, and something novel like being female can often tip you over the edge if you are trying to who to pick. Another potential opportunity benefit to being female in the industry. Not to mention companies that have active policies to "gender balance" groups etc.
Groups I've worked in often have a greater female ratios than the application ratio would suggest.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2018, 11:39:27 am »
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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?

Yes, it is.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%

That's a valid argument; I had not known that data point. Thanks!

Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2018, 11:44:56 am »
To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?
my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy

And that's something I have seen many times.
I've seen people cry "discrimination" because they are a different ethnicity, or obese, or several other things. Of course it can't possibly be because they were inept at their job, or have bad personality or attitude etc, oh no, you have the "listen and believe" it was because of what they said it was.
And that can't possibly happen with gender discrimination...

Look, I'm not saying there isn't gender discrimination, there is, but if anyone believes people 100% without question then they are as much a part of the problem as apparently the guy who says "I haven't personally seen any gender discrimination".

There is evidence that it's not as bad as it made out, by virtue of greater female ratios in teams than applicants, which seems to be not uncommon. It would be the opposite ratio if there was rampant gender discrimination in the industry. I've seen this dating back to the 80's in various companies I've worked for.

And I do fear that mass promotion of this supposedly "rampant" gender discrimination in the engineering field may just possibly cause many girls to opt out of it. That's why I was happy to have to female students visit my lab and ask about it, so I could reassure them that it's not going to be a hindrance to their career in the field. Because I think that's what they need to hear, positive stories and be encouraged instead of being told horror stories to scare them. Because I got the sense that they had almost been indoctrinated by the university that this was the case, and they seemed relieved when I reassured them it wasn't a big deal. I was quite proud to be able to do that.

And before anyone mentions it, no that's not an excuse to cover up blatant gender discrimination which I am entirely against. If you see real and blatant gender discrimination, speak up. If I ever saw it at any job I was at, loud mouth Dave would have been all over it.
Also, I can't recall experiencing it in any lab "shop talk" between male engineers. No "chicks are just useless at engineering" or whatever. At that's when guy aren't shy to talk about other aspects of girls when "talking shop".
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 12:06:02 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2018, 11:49:35 am »
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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?
Yes, it is.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%
That's a valid argument; I had not known that data point. Thanks!

Here are my stats for the last year. And other Youtubers in the space have similar numbers, without exception.
I'd also bet it's similar for female hosts as well but I have not had that confirmed.
And remember, Youtube is an equal playing field, people watch in private without any pressure from anyone.




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Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?

Yes, it's a very interesting subject. I don't know why it would be lower, totally opposite to what I'd expect.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 12:07:36 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline blackfin76

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2018, 12:31:08 pm »
Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?

I bet you will find an almost perfect one on one correlation with the number of women in 'specialized engineering'.  Forums and special interest youtube channels are most often the places you will find people with special interests. A lot of people are only in engineering for a living, in their free time they end up in very different places.

Dave statistics are just more proof that men in general are far more interested in electrical engineering than women.  Is this a problem? No of course not, it's just nature.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2018, 12:53:34 pm »
Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?
A large number of the people with engineering degrees in the "technical professions" are in things like sales and marketing. I doubt many of those people participate in forums, unless the forum is on, say, a standard highly relevant to what they are trying to promote. There seem to be far more women in those activities than in the core R&D activities. What do you think the percentage of women in core engineering R&D is these days?
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2018, 01:07:50 pm »
In the female column, the higher % are grandmas :-)
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Online wraper

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2018, 01:13:54 pm »
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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?

Yes, it is.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%

That's a valid argument; I had not known that data point. Thanks!

Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?
Probably because percentage of female who are involved in electronics/engineering because of calling rather than just for money is much lower than for men.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2018, 01:56:08 pm »
Dave statistics are just more proof that men in general are far more interested in electrical engineering than women.  Is this a problem? No of course not, it's just nature.

Agreed.
There are a great many people who do think it's a problem though, and a problem that needs sometimes extreme measures (as in, ironically, real real active discrimination) to "fix".
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2018, 02:00:17 pm »
Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?

I bet you will find an almost perfect one on one correlation with the number of women in 'specialized engineering'.  Forums and special interest youtube channels are most often the places you will find people with special interests. A lot of people are only in engineering for a living, in their free time they end up in very different places.

Dave statistics are just more proof that men in general are far more interested in electrical engineering than women.  Is this a problem? No of course not, it's just nature.

BS.  EE is not a 'specialized engineering'.

Woman's brain is Wired differently and this is what makes woman woman. Pushing woman forcebly to do stuff they are not interested in will never bring sensible result. We love woman for being irrational and emotional, leave them alone and do not try going against nature. If not agree, why not 'encourage' men to do knitting and see how much success you going to get.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2018, 02:06:37 pm »
We love woman for being irrational and emotional, leave them alone and do not try going against nature.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2018, 03:08:49 pm »
Agreed.
There are a great many people who do think it's a problem though, and a problem that needs sometimes extreme measures (as in, ironically, real real active discrimination) to "fix".

It only seemed to become an issue when the tech industry got big and people started making a lot of money. When I was in school, being interested in computers or electronics was about the most effective girl repellant one could have. I saw a lot of active hostility toward the geeks, dweebs, nerds, etc. That's why I find it somewhat offensive when people suggest that there is some kind of hostility against women from the engineering community, in reality it was the other way around. It's great to see this stigma fading and more women becoming interested in engineering, but it's completely unrealistic to expect a 50/50 ratio and it certainly isn't the engineering community's fault that more women aren't interested.

The notion that it's a matter of encouragement is ridiculous too. Absolutely nobody had to encourage me, it was not a career decision, it has been my life. Since I was old enough to hold a screwdriver I've been taking things apart to see what's inside, much to the annoyance of my dad when I took apart some of his expensive stuff back before I figured out how to put it back together.
 

Offline Canis Dirus Leidy

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2018, 03:35:39 pm »
Other than that it stays pretty much focused on electronics --- no one here cares in the slightest if you're female, male, something in between, or a dog.
Ahem. Not all members of Canidae family are dogs.

P.S. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2018, 11:47:47 pm »
Agreed.
There are a great many people who do think it's a problem though, and a problem that needs sometimes extreme measures (as in, ironically, real real active discrimination) to "fix".

It only seemed to become an issue when the tech industry got big and people started making a lot of money. When I was in school, being interested in computers or electronics was about the most effective girl repellant one could have. I saw a lot of active hostility toward the geeks, dweebs, nerds, etc. That's why I find it somewhat offensive when people suggest that there is some kind of hostility against women from the engineering community

Agreed. It's unlikely you'll get that hostility from a fellow engineer IME
 

Offline b_force

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2018, 12:06:22 am »
I have just read through this thread and I lost my entire hope in objective science.
I have never seen so many completely and utterly subjective and non-scientific arguments all together from either side.  :palm:
It makes me cringe so bad.

The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline Marco

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2018, 12:10:57 am »
Books just have a lot of extra words ... the science is all available on sci-hub.

By adding a lot of words a book doesn't add any more authority to its opinion than any given paper. At best it's just an exceptionally sloppy meta-research paper.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 12:20:32 am by Marco »
 


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