Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 77942 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #550 on: November 21, 2018, 01:59:59 pm »
You don't ban them, I'm not in favor of that. But you can remove public funding for them.
Public funding is a broad brush. As soon as you trying to focus it people complain that this constrains academic freedom, which is a fair criticism. Focussed funding is almost all of the form "we are giving $X to Y for Z", such as specific funding to address cancer research.

Yes, but when that "academic freedom" starts offering courses in say homeopathy or paranormal research, or some other wacky anti-science obviously bullshit thing, it has to be the role of government to step in and say that's not an acceptable use of public funds. I think that's a valid role of government.
Gender studies can be approached from the "no or poor value to society" angle perhaps.
It it the role of government to ensure that public funds are not wasted, nor are used for things that are potentially detrimental to society. e.g. if gender studies courses are producing unemployable radicals, that could be detrimental to society.
Let's say a university wanted to use public funds to run a course in communist studies, nazi studies, or anti-authoritarian studies, how far do you let things go with public funds?
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok (or in the case of Australia, fund it against our constitution  |O )

This has been tried. It doesn't cut everything by 25%. It closes down a lot of science and engineering activities. They have labs, and cost a lot, so they get cut. The humanities departments can be really cheap to run by comparison, and they attract a lot more students. Universities don't want to see they expensive, revenue creating, dorms and other facilities empty. That would just make their finances even worse. They cut the programs which will meet their new budget with the minimum reduction in student head count.

Sadly I think you are right.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 02:01:50 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #551 on: November 21, 2018, 03:28:49 pm »
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools? It makes sense to be, so long as it's not in the form of indoctrination. Educating students about different religious beliefs will give them a broader understanding of different cultures and make them more tolerant. For example, later in life when they start work and are dealing with a Muslim customer, they'll know about their dietary requirements when catering for them.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #552 on: November 21, 2018, 03:37:07 pm »
I think it was Jordan Peterson's suggestion to remove 25% funding from all public universities and let them fight it out what departments are really important  ;D
Of course the end result in that case would be all courses get cut by 25% which would suck.
That is what happened in University of Helsinki in 2017.  It is the only Finnish University in the Shanghai Top 100 (57th).  The Finnish government decided to cut 60 M€ off of its funding, or about 15% off; about 9% of the total University income.

Rather than take into account which departments and programs produced research and graduates at an internationally acknowledged level, the administration decided that the equal-cut approach was more proper: all departments got the same relative cut, regardless of their actual performance.  It was mostly hidden in fixed costs (the departments must pay rent for the space they use, for example), to avoid a public discussion on which doctoral chairs would be cut. (They tried hard to keep that to zero in every department, cutting lecturers, TAs, and so on, instead.)

The sad part is, University of Helsinki already produces a big surplus of graduates from the humanities, while companies claim the work-related immigration rules should be dropped, because they cannot find capable educated workers. (Finland has a very heavy public sector, with over a quarter of the work force in the public sector. Most of the humanities graduates work in that sector, of course.)

What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #553 on: November 21, 2018, 04:16:24 pm »
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #554 on: November 21, 2018, 05:25:26 pm »
You don't ban them, I'm not in favor of that. But you can remove public funding for them.
Public funding is a broad brush. As soon as you trying to focus it people complain that this constrains academic freedom, which is a fair criticism. Focussed funding is almost all of the form "we are giving $X to Y for Z", such as specific funding to address cancer research.

Yes, but when that "academic freedom" starts offering courses in say homeopathy or paranormal research, or some other wacky anti-science obviously bullshit thing, it has to be the role of government to step in and say that's not an acceptable use of public funds. I think that's a valid role of government.
Gender studies can be approached from the "no or poor value to society" angle perhaps.
It it the role of government to ensure that public funds are not wasted, nor are used for things that are potentially detrimental to society. e.g. if gender studies courses are producing unemployable radicals, that could be detrimental to society.
Let's say a university wanted to use public funds to run a course in communist studies, nazi studies, or anti-authoritarian studies, how far do you let things go with public funds?
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok (or in the case of Australia, fund it against our constitution  |O )
Homeopathy looks stupid now, but it wasn't so obviously stupid when it started. They didn't know about atoms, and how sufficient dilution would actually leave nothing at all. Limiting academic freedom is like limiting speech - you end up suppressing the truly interesting and original along with the bad.

Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #555 on: November 21, 2018, 05:57:34 pm »
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

I agree they should be teaching those topics, as long as the way those are taught is neutral and factual, which is no small endeavor. Neutral is hard, and important though. Even teaching those topics with too obviously negative biases could lead to subtle indoctrination just as effectively as putting them in a positive light. Another important point IMO is that those topics should only be taught to students that are mature enough and have shown they have developed enough sense of criticism (which should be the basic goal of university teaching anyway).

Funding research is another thing. Unless the research topics in question are proven clearly neutral and only have historical goals, I don't think they should be publicly funded. This is way too slippery.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #556 on: November 21, 2018, 07:26:31 pm »
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.

afaiu that is how it is here, it is in school when you are under ~16 and it covers all the major religions though it naturally has more on Christianity
and I think it is mostly a "cultural" approach to the subject rather than a religious one
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #557 on: November 21, 2018, 07:47:05 pm »
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.
An oddity until the national curriculum stuff was the UK made school from 5 to 16 compulsory, but the only compulsory subject was religion. Hence, when I was at school we had to have one lesson a week tagged "religious knowledge". One of the school's religious knowledge teachers was a Christian, and she made some effort to teach something about Christianity. The others 2 were atheists, and used their lessons for class discussions on any topic that came to mind. They made it more like a debating class than a religion class, really.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #558 on: November 21, 2018, 08:27:28 pm »
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.

afaiu that is how it is here, it is in school when you are under ~16 and it covers all the major religions though it naturally has more on Christianity
and I think it is mostly a "cultural" approach to the subject rather than a religious one
Here, too.  I'm definitely not making an assumption of no religious education; I meant it in the more general sense that any change in curriculum should be viewed as replacing something else, as it is already crammed so full of everything it is impossible to just add to it. Even a tiny little bit.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #559 on: November 21, 2018, 11:25:12 pm »
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?

 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #560 on: November 21, 2018, 11:35:16 pm »
That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?

They're of value to the people who earn money providing them, and people who's goal is to indoctrinate others.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #561 on: November 21, 2018, 11:45:59 pm »
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok

In Australia more than 50% are christians, therefore it makes sense to keep teaching that, why not?
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #562 on: November 21, 2018, 11:50:57 pm »
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok

In Australia more than 50% are christians, therefore it makes sense to keep teaching that, why not?

Because ~50% of the people are not christians for one thing. A larger reason is if the law is anything like that in the US which specifically prevents the government from establishing an official religion. You are free to practice any religion you please, the government does not need to be involved in this though. If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #563 on: November 22, 2018, 01:55:18 am »
The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
And why wouldn't a religious (or non-religious) person want to emphasize their own point of view over someone else's?
In any case, in some parts of the world now you can be prosecuted for "hate speech" simply for quoting texts from someone else's "holy" book, while the adherents of some of those texts are free to quote them as much as they like.
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #564 on: November 22, 2018, 02:07:32 am »
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?

You can always say: Dont mess with me. I've got a PHD in indoctrination !  >:D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #565 on: November 22, 2018, 03:34:19 am »
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok
In Australia more than 50% are christians, therefore it makes sense to keep teaching that, why not?

The largest "religious" group in Australia is actually non-religious, 30% at the last census. Next highest was catholic at 22%. And those religion stats are hugely skewed due to otherwise essentially non-religious people putting down the religion of their upbringing (tricky wording in the census ensured this). Or simply marking a religion because they think it means they are good person etc.
And if you knew anything about Australia, we are one the most non-religious countries around, the majority don't give a toss about religion here. In my estimation the true "non-religious" population here has to be closer to 80%.
Try being a christian in Australia and thank god at a public event, the entire crowd will actually laugh and snigger at you.

Why not teach it in schools, because the state has no right to be teaching religion to our students. In fact it is against our constitution, as ruled the other year by the supreme court that the government is not to fund religion in schools. In the actual case it was about chaplains in public schools.

Not to mention indoctrinating bullshit to children.
By all means learn about religions (and the countless failed ones) in the history or cultural studies class along with our native aboriginal creation stories, but a focused religious class does not belong in our publicly funded school system.
If you want to teach your kids that rubbish, go to church on the weekend or after school.
Giving religion a special pass because it's religion is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 03:53:34 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #566 on: November 22, 2018, 03:52:31 am »
If you want to teach about religion in schools then you have to approach it from a critical point of view.
i.e. "There is no evidence at all that the claims of any of the religions are true, but many people believe they are true for cultural, social family upbrining, or personal needs reasons. And many really do believe it so much it's true to them, so you have to understand that. End of class."
It should be a special one-off thing like sex-ed.
Teaching it any other way is tantamount to indoctrination in the beliefs of religion and should not be state funded or endorsed. Those that don't like that should go live in a theocracy, Australia is not one of them.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 03:56:22 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #567 on: November 22, 2018, 12:26:16 pm »
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?
I also have little esteem for gender studies (and related things like gay studies). I don’t, however, think they indoctrinate as such. The people who choose those areas of study are already of that mindset. It’s not so much indoctrination as it is echo chamber.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #568 on: November 22, 2018, 12:40:42 pm »
More than 52%, according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia
I wonder what sort of christians have you met in your life to have such an aversion. If democracy had something to do with the powers of the majority... well, there you have it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 02:36:36 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #569 on: November 22, 2018, 01:26:05 pm »
The way grievance studies is “taught” is very much as if it is an orthodox religion though.

Questioning the dogma is met with shutting down of deiscussion and in some cases excommunication. They are simply not open to their ideaology being debated, often by quite literally stating “it’s not up for debate”. The lack of ability to self reflect is astonishing.

As an example, the Bret Weinstein and Heather Hayling controversy at Evergreen State College laid this out so overtly. Life-long Democrats, they were hung out to dry by the students, faculty and administration. The faculty and administration have doubled and trpled down, and consequently their enrollment is over 50% down this year. Of course, the college blames Weinstein, not themselves. That’s their MO, even in the face of the bleedin’ obvious, they’re incapable of self reflection.

Then there’s the Lindsay Shepherd case, a masters candidate who  (legally) recorded a meeting with her superiors about her use of a video in a communications class that discussed gender pronouns. It’s difficult to imagine how they could possibly have considered this right, it was one of the best examples of a kangaroo court I’ve encountered.

More recently there is the case of Valerie Flokstra, a similar scenario to Shepherd’s in many ways in terms of the kangaroo court. Her “crime” was to suggest that there may be a connection in increased frequency of autism in the offspring of women who’ve previously had multiple terminations. She was connecting two studies, one connecting autism with premature birth and another connecting premature birth to those women having previously had multiple terminations. Of course, to even suggest the mere possibility such a correlation in a pro-choice dominated regime didn’t go down well.

To me the similarity of the way the dogma is defended, with doubters being treated as blasphemers, makes grievance studies appear very much like a religion. As soon as you hear “not up for debate”, the alarm bells should be ringing very loudly.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #570 on: November 22, 2018, 03:13:49 pm »
The way grievance studies is “taught” is very much as if it is an orthodox religion though.
A problem with fighting against this in universities is that the oldest and most prestigious universities mostly started out ONLY teaching orthodox religion, so its at their very core. Newton could only be a professor at Cambridge because he was CofE. By that time CofE theology was still an element of every course, even though it was not the main part of most courses. The industrial revolution was mostly built my people who did not go to university, because they were from non-conformist religions. The first time a non-CofE person in the UK could go to university was in the 1820s, when Jeremy Bentham built UCL.

The current bad situation is not new. Its just recycling long established practices.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #571 on: November 22, 2018, 04:38:46 pm »
If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in deciding one's religion, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't be allowed to educate children about religion. The problem of focusing too much on one religion can be overcome by making the syllabus focus equally on all major religions and testing to ensure that goal is being met.

The purpose of religious education should be to give children a broad perspective on region and ethics, to enable them to make up their own minds. If RE is not taught in schools then children will only get one perspective. Their parents might force them to go to church, mosque, temple etc. where they're taught that anyone with a different region is bad or they tell them any anyone who practices a religion is bad and only atheists are good people.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #572 on: November 22, 2018, 05:34:33 pm »
If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in deciding one's religion, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't be allowed to educate children about religion. The problem of focusing too much on one religion can be overcome by making the syllabus focus equally on all major religions and testing to ensure that goal is being met.

The purpose of religious education should be to give children a broad perspective on region and ethics, to enable them to make up their own minds. If RE is not taught in schools then children will only get one perspective. Their parents might force them to go to church, mosque, temple etc. where they're taught that anyone with a different region is bad or they tell them any anyone who practices a religion is bad and only atheists are good people.

when I was in school all the jehovas witness kids were exempt from religion classes, they might hear something "dangerous"

 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #573 on: November 22, 2018, 06:35:57 pm »
If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in deciding one's religion, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't be allowed to educate children about religion. The problem of focusing too much on one religion can be overcome by making the syllabus focus equally on all major religions and testing to ensure that goal is being met.

The purpose of religious education should be to give children a broad perspective on region and ethics, to enable them to make up their own minds. If RE is not taught in schools then children will only get one perspective. Their parents might force them to go to church, mosque, temple etc. where they're taught that anyone with a different region is bad or they tell them any anyone who practices a religion is bad and only atheists are good people.

when I was in school all the jehovas witness kids were exempt from religion classes, they might hear something "dangerous"
I've heard that too. I think that sort of nonsense shouldn't be allowed. Everyone should have to participate.
 

Online MrMobodies

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #574 on: November 22, 2018, 11:06:19 pm »
I remember this article some years ago:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/update-kindergarten-teacher-denies-legos-to-boys-in-name-of-gender-equity

I found it outrageous and I see it happening more often.
I saw all kinds of discrimination in my school years but not like this.
Back then it was more to do with religion, if you have some kind of disability, where you are from and what class you came from and how much your parents earn and so on.

I find there are lots these girls/female only coding courses these days with grants and in places where they don't teach much.
It would be good if they can recognise that and extend the courtesy in the name of equality and whether it is running a separate class for both genders.
At least they'd set a good example.

I suppose it also depends on what part of the country you are from.
 


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