Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 77927 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #625 on: November 26, 2018, 09:29:20 pm »
Part of the reason for that 99% vs 1% may be that it is generally considered quite acceptable for an unknown woman to approach and make a fuss over your small kids, but for an unknown man to do the same thing without his wife present is a big no-no. Part of the reason, if you believe SJWs and feminists, is that all men are rapists and paedophiles, especially white men. Of course, these are the same men that collectively conspire to prevent women from becoming engineers.  :palm:

Actually this is very true.

It’s not at all uncommon for a few (admittedly a minority) of the women at the places I work at to be quite touchy feely on occasion, in a way that I wouldn’t ever dream of, not least because if I did, not only do I find it inappropriate in a work environment, but you can be 100% sure the HR arseholes would be all over me like a rash.

In its extreme, the touching comprises of neck massages, which are not uncommon, but more common are brief hands touching/stroking the knee or arm, unnecessarily as far as I’m comcerned, but women tend to be different to men in that respect.

Being a nerd I laugh it off as best I can, but it annoys me that if the shoe was on the other foot I’d be out the door within the hour. I personally find the massage thing to be really quite unnerving, and I would not be surprised if that’s why they do it, to see my reaction. The thing is I have a lot of respect otherwise for those who do it, I work with them very regularly, and not,only are they very good in their roles, I like it that we can enjoy a bit of harmless office banter (that’ll be banned soon I’m sure). I would much rather work in an environment with witty banter, in-jokes and self-deprecation than a soulless work environment, so I take the rough with the smooth in that respect.

As a datapoint, some years ago at a social function outside of work after few tinnies I asked one of the women why they did it to me. They said it was because I was “harmless”. I still don’t know whether to take that as a compliment or not!

I wonder if third wave feminists would think this behaviour appropriate?
The most irritating thing of this kind is when a woman turns up for a meeting rather inappropriately dressed, knowing this will be very disruptive in the meeting, and succeeds in ensuring nothing is achieved. I've seen this stunt pulled a few times.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #626 on: November 26, 2018, 10:07:49 pm »
Quote
It's plausible women are innately wary of men they don't know approaching their children, since men are more likely to abuse them than women
Some years back, I was in a mall with some family, and stopped to tie my shoes. Out of nowhere, a little blur runs over, jumps on my head and bounces off. So I look up to see a little tot, maybe 6-10, is standing there grinning at me. My basic instinct was to laugh and pick him up under the arm pits while standing back up, and holding him up over my head while saying "GRRRR!" Which he rather enjoyed.

My next instinct was to quickly put him back down before I got tackled, and ask him where are his parents? He points over to his unaware adult keepers, and I say "Good! Go bother them!" Which he obliged, racing off, still grinning and laughing.

My brother was impressed I could get away with that without initiating an amber alert. But god knows how many ways that could have gone wrong.

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As someone who's spent the last 8 years wandering around with two cute adorable kids in public
As a man of science, you should be aware 90% of kids are cute. Not all of 'em.... but your kids are not especially cute, no matter how many googly eyed women stop to say so. :) More likely, they are regular-cute plus you appear approachable.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 11:11:51 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #627 on: November 26, 2018, 10:19:54 pm »
In Sweden, they often manipulate the pictures, lightening the skin color before pixelating the face.
:bullshit:
Don't take my word for it, nor the "bullshit detector" of an anonymous SJW, find out for yourself.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 10:23:24 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #628 on: November 27, 2018, 12:05:27 am »
^ that is a refreshing practice, tbh.

Quote
Even without current culture and society, it's pretty certain the women would spend more time raising children, than men, perhaps even more so than in this modern world. There would be no formula milk, so breastfeeding would be the only option, whilst the men go hunting and foraging for food. If anything modern technology enables women to behave more like men and vice versa.
Yes, I agree with the first part, but I have my own tweak on the second.

In most animals there are many sexually dimorphic features/behaviors that evolve solely for reason of intraspecies competition. Every species that has found itself a comfortable niche in the ecosystem has energy left over after covering the basics of simply staying alive, and there will arise time and energy for intraspecies competition for passing on genes. It's not a conscious thing, it's just that the result begets more of itself. There is room for more sexual dimorphism to occur, and that animal can still survive. Some of that dimorphism will result in greater breeding opportunities. Technology provides humans with more time and energy to devote to other purposes. But in most first world nations, we have changed the rules of the game. We have laws, marriage, child support, and contraception. These laws and societal norms pretty well stop this positive feedback loop. And most importantly, we have created the concept of wealth, which is persistent (as long as the lawyers get their cut) beyond generations; this wealth is in some ways more important that the amount of offspring one could create. Because of this, being top baby daddy is not something that many males seem to really aspire to, anymore, in most of the modern world.

If we had the technology without the these other cultural features (IOW, if we conquered the planet but still bred like animals) we would expect our technology to result in an INCREASE in sexual dimorphism, both physically and behaviorally.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #629 on: November 27, 2018, 12:49:00 am »
Part of the reason for that 99% vs 1% may be that it is generally considered quite acceptable for an unknown woman to approach and make a fuss over your small kids, but for an unknown man to do the same thing without his wife present is a big no-no. Part of the reason, if you believe SJWs and feminists, is that all men are rapists and paedophiles, especially white men. Of course, these are the same men that collectively conspire to prevent women from becoming engineers.  :palm:

It's not about coming up and deliberately approaching, it's when you happen to near people like in a lift, in a line at a shop etc.
Women vastly outnumber men in just looking at and smiling at the kids, giving them a little wave, or dropping the "he's gorgeous" line.
I do the same with other people's cute kids in the same setting without anyone batting an eyelid.
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #630 on: November 27, 2018, 12:56:12 am »
^^ Probably makes a difference depending on your age too. I'm 60 now, so old enough to be a grandfather. Women in the same age group as my kids likely see me differently than when I was the same age as them.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #631 on: November 27, 2018, 12:58:50 am »
Quote
As someone who's spent the last 8 years wandering around with two cute adorable kids in public
As a man of science, you should be aware 90% of kids are cute. Not all of 'em.... but your kids are not especially cute, no matter how many googly eyed women stop to say so. :) More likely, they are regular-cute plus you appear approachable.

Actually, not really. The "cuteness" of a kid is more about how tiny they are, the smaller and yet mature looking facial features they have the "cuter" they are.
I watch other peoples (still cute) kids of the same age not get the same reactions my kids get.
You haven't seen my kids in person, so you don't get a sense for how small they are (Mrs EEVblog is tiny, so our kids are in the sub 5% growth percentile), yet still have a kind of mature look about their face. That makes them "cuter" and hence get more reactions than the majority of kids who just have regular chubby faces etc.
I've been keeping mental statistics.
My current record is five "OMG, he's gorgeous" comments coming and going from the same building.

But yes, I'm told I have an approachable permanent smile.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #632 on: November 27, 2018, 01:47:25 am »

But yes, I'm told I have an approachable permanent smile.

This pictures comes to mind.

 

Offline apis

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #633 on: November 27, 2018, 01:46:04 pm »
In Sweden, they often manipulate the pictures, lightening the skin color before pixelating the face.
:bullshit:
Don't take my word for it, nor the "bullshit detector" of an anonymous SJW, find out for yourself.
Hmm, you're the one acting like an SJW, making outlandish allegations and then getting all worked up and resorting to name calling when someone points it out.

Don't know if you can read Swedish but the links you posted just proves you wrong. First hit is the chief editor of one of the tabloids apologising for having done that at some time before 2009, saying it was a mistake and they won't do it again because it could be seen as dishonest. It's not something that is often done in Sweden as you said, quite the opposite. I hadn't even heard of it ever happening until now.
 

Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #634 on: November 27, 2018, 03:20:20 pm »
When a group is under represented in anything, there is economic as well as evolution of knowledge opportunity lost.  Quite simply there are fewer brains from which to choose the best.  It is an economic disadvantage for the consumer of skill and for those who would provide it.  "Politics" like any profession or avocation can be done badly or to bad purpose.  However, it is the skill set of driving Democracy.  To say that it's an infection begs the question of what the cure really would be.

When democracy is working, underprivileged groups will seek privilege.  Those of us who understand the social and economic benefits of a larger pool of workers will work to provide special opportunities in an effort to balance things.   Things do become more competitive so seek opportunity and compete! It's sad when people whine or complain about others competing, even when others are getting a bit of a boost.

There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.
The thoughtful person will ask why that is happening and seek to balance it for the greater good.   
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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #635 on: November 27, 2018, 04:18:53 pm »
There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.
Can you support that assertion with solidly researched evidence?
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #636 on: November 27, 2018, 05:27:32 pm »
There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.
Can you support that assertion with solidly researched evidence?
Note the wording.

Of course no sane person would disagree with that, however it's all a moot point, because it doesn't ask why.
When a group is under represented in anything, there is economic as well as evolution of knowledge opportunity lost.  Quite simply there are fewer brains from which to choose the best.  It is an economic disadvantage for the consumer of skill and for those who would provide it.  "Politics" like any profession or avocation can be done badly or to bad purpose.  However, it is the skill set of driving Democracy.  To say that it's an infection begs the question of what the cure really would be.

That may sound fine on the surface but one needs to explore why a certain group is under-represented? If it's because said group is genuinely not interested, then nothing is lost. If it's because said group is discriminated against, then I'd agree, it is a loss.

There is some evidence that women are innately less interested in engineering than men. No doubt discrimination against women is an issue, but it's debatable whether it's the main reason why there's a lack of female representation in engineering.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #637 on: November 27, 2018, 05:28:34 pm »
When a group is under represented in anything, there is economic as well as evolution of knowledge opportunity lost.  Quite simply there are fewer brains from which to choose the best.

No, this is a fallacy in general, because you have to define how you go about it, and if those methods have a net negative impact then you should leave alone. It's what I used to think but I have changed my mind in recent years: I simply hadn't thought it through.

Firstly, I question whether gender diversity really is as important as the proponents think it is. A study often cited is the Forbes Insights one, until you read who was surveryed:

Quote
“Fostering Innovation Through a Diverse Workforce” is based on an exclusive survey of 321 executives at large global enterprises ($500 million-plus in annual revenues). All respondents had direct responsibility or oversight for their companies’ diversity and inclusion programs

You couldn't make it up, of course they're going to say diversity is great!

Yes you can encourage certain groups, but you are competing against other interested parties too, so it has limited results. I am all for offering these skills to everyone at all levels of education.

You can also encourage in a more passive way. As an example, the vast majority science pundits the BBC use for pretty much every space-based piece nowadays are female, despite this being completely unrepresentative of the industry as a whole. They are certainly just as well suited for the role as far as I can see as anyone. I am certainly not complaining. But interestingly some women in science are complaining that they're being pigeon holed for their communication skills, because the BBC wants to be seen to be promoting diversity. You can't win.

So how do you propose to bring things into balance? And what is the "right" balance? 50:50? So let's consider positive discrimination and quotas.

In this scenario you are considering a candidate both on merit and whether they have the "right" genitals. Your HR department are throwing away resumes and CVs of potentially excellent candidates who didn't make the grade because of a physical attribute completely unconnected with the job. How is that even slightly reasonable?

Say that person with the right anatomy got the job, maybe they were the best person on merit, but maybe it was their genitals, likely it was both. How do you think they feel about that? How do you think their colleagues think about it? Being a "diversity hire" is not a badge anyone would like to hold. Like it or not, if you know there are systemic quotas or there is positive discrimination, prejudices are going to come for free.

So, let's say we look at trying to do this earlier in the career path, let's look at university admission.

We could force more women to take engineering and more men to take nursing by, yes, engaging quotas. Therefore, even if you'd rather be doing nursing, you're being coerced against your will into doing engineering. How good are you going to be as an engineer if you're going to harbour resentment because you never got the opportunity to do the career you wanted to? How much fitting square pegs into round holes do you think is right?

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It is an economic disadvantage for the consumer of skill and for those who would provide it.  "Politics" like any profession or avocation can be done badly or to bad purpose.  However, it is the skill set of driving Democracy.  To say that it's an infection begs the question of what the cure really would be.

Assuming it needs fixing, any cure would need to be better than the status quo. I can't see how positive discrimination and quotas are in any way better than the status quo.

Quote
When democracy is working, underprivileged groups will seek privilege.  Those of us who understand the social and economic benefits of a larger pool of workers will work to provide special opportunities in an effort to balance things.

Why on earth should you get special benefits because you are born with the "right" genitals?

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Things do become more competitive so seek opportunity and compete! It's sad when people whine or complain about others competing, even when others are getting a bit of a boost.

No one is complaining about competition, as long as it's on a level playing field. How giving "a bit of a boost" is anything other than divisive I don't know.

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There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.

Nobody is saying that, although reading your post suggests that's what you want to believe. An example of a person who should not be in engineering is the person who'd prefer to be in a different career: a nurse, a teacher, a refuse collector, or a miner for example.

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The thoughtful person will ask why that is happening

We have, and unfortunately some people don't like the answer. Dare I say the name James Damore, and in particular the work of Simon Baron Cohen et al.

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and seek to balance it for the greater good.

How is "balance for the greater good" if the corrective action is to the net detriment of individuals' wishes?

I also recommend that you look up the Gender Equality Paradox, a series of studies which might give more light on the subject for you.

To be clear, I have a long career history of encouraging and mentoring women in engineering, and continue to do so. What's not right for anyone is the authoritarian approach of leading horses to water. People have to genuinely want to do the job, thank you.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 05:33:54 pm by Howardlong »
 
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #638 on: November 27, 2018, 06:31:19 pm »
This just came it. Does it count?
Or Apple sends this to everyone, or Apple is unsure about my gender.

Edit: Shaved 500k from attach
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 06:32:52 pm by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #639 on: November 27, 2018, 07:37:24 pm »
"We believe that apps for everyone should be made by everyone both genders.
So we have a fast track programme for women.

Programme doesn't include everyone.
Everybody? as in no men?

One-on-one-code level guidance?

Wow, something I couldn't even get where I live apart from doing that online.

But two weeks is a bit short.
Access to engineers and leaders? well what a privilege.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 07:43:13 pm by MrMobodies »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #640 on: November 27, 2018, 08:09:01 pm »
All 'diversity' programs are just half-assed ways of keeping a screwed up educational system in place that increasingly discriminates against all non-wealthy people, no matter what their gender or race is.

When I dug into the root causes a bit, I was amazed and anguished to find that this is happening ostensibly because its being forced on countries - not necessarily because they want it. or at least that is the first layer in the onion skin layers of explanations that I found, (which change as you go deeper, with the justifications typically fed to people depending on who they are).

At the root of all this is the rapidly increasing concentration of wealth and a declining need, globally for human labor. Its also frequently argued that labor in the developed countries is 'too expensive' given the fact that the same person might make 1/20 as much in Asia or Africa than they do in the EU, the US or Australia. So why not use them, the argument goes. And its a compelling one to some businesspeople. (although maybe not the most foresighted ones)

Many people seem to be expecting wages to soon be in free fall. So much so that some opine, in private, 'why should we be investing in education now?' Really.

So, not wanting to actually solve the finance problem as it needs to be solved and not really wanting to have lots of people with two and four year degrees and debt who cant get jobs after a few years of unemployment, has led to a rolling back of help extended to all students. Everywhere.

I am convinced that the so called controversy over gender and race are actually a means of avoiding ever solving more deep seated problems.

Not to say that discrimination doesnt exist, it does, however, the way to solve it is to give every talennted student a good education.

Paradoxically, division is literally being stirred up intentionally -now- in order to prevent attention from going to the real causes of what is really a systemic defunding and disinvestment in society problem.

Which are a failure to share the improvements in standards of living generated by technology - at all- with anybody- and intentions to increase not decrease inequality in the future in what amounts to sort of a preemptive strike against the bright future that many seem to be expecting- pressure to ameliorate some of the impacts of vanishing jobs of all kinds.  This is a very well organized, international effort. It began in 1986 with the incorporation of services into the talks for what was to become the WTO. The glue that held it together was the promise of service jobs in develkoped countries being channeled to corporations located in the poorer countries in large numbers. In part to allow them to pay ff illegitimate debts. The so called "Third World Debt". Or at least that is one of the cover stories. Its one that is as likely as not, perhaps more likely than not to be an excuse rather than the real cause. The real cause is simply greed. Oligarchs of North and South are really on the same team. Not opposed. They would be the first to tell us (and they have) that the nation-state's days are waning.

Maybe the aforementioned deals and the pressure to stop helping students (and people of all kinds in all public services - which are being privatized by fiat) is just an excuse to be greedy, one they all wanted to have and use.

If we had not invented it- the excuse- (the US and EU and AU) in the form of FTAs, (which then put the jobs which otherwise would have been given to our and their own young people, 'into play' where companies from developing countries can bid on them, in other words, as a sort of bargaining chip in trade negotiations, somebody else might have.

The endless talk about gender and race is overcompensating for the fact that the will to fix those problems - as well as the legal framework that required their fixing, is being dismantled.

Whatever unfinished work developed countries still had to do in reducing inequalities, it is now deemed solved, so they can get on with their long delayed programme of lowering skilled wages.

Thats what I see as really happening.

But lets return to what we should be doing. People are falling for a diversionary tactic, race and gender. Wedge issues which deceive people from seeing the slight of hand that is taking the non-corporate non-discriminating jobs or all kinds, away. And turning them into precarious labor in a global sweatshop, yes, even the good jobs. Especially them, because thats where the money is still to be made, reselling others labor.

Which is likely to be 'justified' by saying nobody wants or is qualified for the technical jobs.

Thats not true. Lots of people want them, and nmany people in developed and developing countries are qualified for them. But meritocracy, if it ever existed, is going out of style. The free market includes the model of people literally paying for jobs, if not with money, by their almost free labor.

The 'internship' is coming to the technical job.

Just as the number of technically interested or gifted people who can afford an education without having an affluent family help them is very small. Other people are so desperate for experience they will literally work for almost nothing for years. 

Against this backdrop, I still have to say, this stinks. We should help everybody who has any intrinsic talent who wants to pursue an education go to school for as long as they keep making progress, in a way that doesn't leave them buried in debt, which is a soul killing situation.

Whatever their gender or race. (As I said, the sudden emphasis of discussion of gender and race now is a cynical diversionary tactic thats being used to hide whats really happening, a power grab that will leave society changed, and many once fulfilling jobs becoming precarious low wage labor. Modern equivalents of janitorial positions, except without unions or benefits)

Those jobs wont go to the newly graduated students in debt. because their debt will have priced them out of the market. So they have every reason to be anxious.

Anxiety makes it impossible to learn. That is why a lot of talented poorer 'first generation students' (derogatory term)  end up 'hitting the wall'. Not because they couldn't handle it.

This scheme could still be stopped if people simply exposed it for what it is. because literally nobody nowhere would ever vote for it. We are united on that. Because its so wrong. And we are strong.

Thats why so much effort is going into dividing us. This is so obvious to me, why cant we see it?

Why can't even the rich and powerful see that they are likely making a huge mistake - Killing the engine of prosperity, the middle class. The thing that makes it valuable to have workers. Well, they are too busy, it seems, to think it through, in their self-congratulatory echo chamber.

Its a major case of what is called 'groupthink'.

Not just them already counting the alleged 'profits'.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:09:00 pm by cdev »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #641 on: November 27, 2018, 08:42:45 pm »
When a group is under represented in anything, there is economic as well as evolution of knowledge opportunity lost.  Quite simply there are fewer brains from which to choose the best.  It is an economic disadvantage for the consumer of skill and for those who would provide it.  "Politics" like any profession or avocation can be done badly or to bad purpose.  However, it is the skill set of driving Democracy.  To say that it's an infection begs the question of what the cure really would be.

When democracy is working, underprivileged groups will seek privilege.  Those of us who understand the social and economic benefits of a larger pool of workers will work to provide special opportunities in an effort to balance things.   Things do become more competitive so seek opportunity and compete! It's sad when people whine or complain about others competing, even when others are getting a bit of a boost.

No one is whining or complaining about women cometeing for engineering positions!
In fact it's the opposite, most are saying they like the see more women in engineering positions!

What people are not buying is the BS that there should be ridiculous "equality of outcome" (i.e. somehow forced 50/50 gender ratios) instead of the already implemented "equality of opportunity".
Women already have equal opportunity to get into engineering, but it seems that they just don't want to, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Quote
There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.
The thoughtful person will ask why that is happening and seek to balance it for the greater good.

Again, no one is talking about or saying that.
The question is why are women not interested in pursuing engineering in the same numbers as men. Hint, it's the same reason why men are not interested in nursing.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 08:49:12 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #642 on: November 27, 2018, 08:49:18 pm »
There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.
Can you support that assertion with solidly researched evidence?
Note the wording.

Of course no sane person would disagree with that, however it's all a moot point, because it doesn't ask why.
When a group is under represented in anything, there is economic as well as evolution of knowledge opportunity lost.  Quite simply there are fewer brains from which to choose the best.  It is an economic disadvantage for the consumer of skill and for those who would provide it.  "Politics" like any profession or avocation can be done badly or to bad purpose.  However, it is the skill set of driving Democracy.  To say that it's an infection begs the question of what the cure really would be.

That may sound fine on the surface but one needs to explore why a certain group is under-represented? If it's because said group is genuinely not interested, then nothing is lost. If it's because said group is discriminated against, then I'd agree, it is a loss.

There is some evidence that women are innately less interested in engineering than men. No doubt discrimination against women is an issue, but it's debatable whether it's the main reason why there's a lack of female representation in engineering.

Yes and if you wanted evidence you would have found it yourself.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #643 on: November 27, 2018, 09:12:47 pm »
Also, I am not disagreeing with people that fewer women are interested in engineering than men, that is clearly true.

Before I get to what I say before, let me just throw in that some of the reduced participation's causes may also be economic.

Even the most talented people of all kinds, especially women simply having less money and also often having family persistently spend less money on them.

And now society also seems to be washing its hands of its responsibilities to everybody who cant afford the outrageously high costs.

Unfortunately.

Also, big changes are afoot, and nothing is at it seems. Its possible that the goal is lowering wages, a lot. In a race to the bottom. So that means they want us to not have the people ready for and wanting jobs. They want us to screw up, to justify the plans they have had for 30 years.

Post-hoc decisionmaking is not democracy.

The plans embedded in FTAs to remake the world of work.

Channeling some kinds of jobs to a guest worker system much like the one in the Middle east called 'kafala'.

Major changes in the makeup of the future work force which rules of all kinds conflict with. Ive actually been told that point blank several times. That peoples wage expectations are not realistic. That this is going to happen. Also that the progress made in the 1900s is going to be rolled back.

That it has to be, (insert excuse here) Probably the most frequently used excuse is that its because of 'highly mobile global capital' demanding it.

Another is that its happening because of rising labor supply and declining labor demand.

Others claim, that the jobs had been promised formally elsewhere. (for example in the Uruguay Round 'compromise' which was never replaced as planned by the Doha Round - which collapsed)

This is not clear, but I think the evidence ranges from almost certain to very compelling that they may have. Even though people would never in a million years vote for anything like that. So they're just trying to skillfully trick us into it. (and a dismantling of safety nets so the unemployment that results wont lead to vastly increased taxes)

Even if experts like Lori Wallach of Public Citizen insist they were not promised, that it requires what the WTO calls a 'single undertaking' to be completed, for those promises to vest. (Former US USTR Froman also insisted that the Doha Round was over.)

I was told by a similarly situated insider (A Canadian) that jobs were being promised, in a sausage factory that I really didn't want to know about, in the 90s. He was clearly sick of it all. (The biggest critics are people familiar with the process). (Its also been stated again and again that preferences and set asides conflict with the seamless implementation of these agreements).

They wouldn't have gone to all this trouble over more than 30 years (since 1986) to ink agreements that didn't make major changes.

All of the quotas are being eliminated because they stand in the way of major changes which have already been decided on.  And democracy is not part of the picture. We're being manipulated after the fact to create a fake buzz to hide the undemocratic nature of these decisions. Nothing more.

You cant tell foreign subcontracting (i.e. body shopping) firms whom to hire. Or require they pay any more than the host country's legal minimum wage, (even that may be challenge-able)

Thats what it really comes down to.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:53:59 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #644 on: November 27, 2018, 09:17:18 pm »
Dave, I am not disagreeing with you that fewer women are interested in engineering than men, that is clearly true. But some of the reduced participation's causes may also be economic. Women simply having less money and also often having family persistently spend less money on them. And now society also seems to be washing its hands of its responsibilities to everybody who cant afford the outrageously high costs.

Unfortunately.
Globally you find the opposite. In countries where opportunities for women can be quite limited, you see significant numbers of women in engineering. In affluent countries, where the economic barriers for women participating are much lower, and their choices much wider, they choose life sciences over engineering.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:22:50 pm by coppice »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #645 on: November 27, 2018, 09:19:17 pm »
There is no genetic or biological reason why people of some description should not be in engineering or, for that matter, any particular avocation.
Can you support that assertion with solidly researched evidence?
Note the wording.

Of course no sane person would disagree with that, however it's all a moot point, because it doesn't ask why.
When a group is under represented in anything, there is economic as well as evolution of knowledge opportunity lost.  Quite simply there are fewer brains from which to choose the best.  It is an economic disadvantage for the consumer of skill and for those who would provide it.  "Politics" like any profession or avocation can be done badly or to bad purpose.  However, it is the skill set of driving Democracy.  To say that it's an infection begs the question of what the cure really would be.

That may sound fine on the surface but one needs to explore why a certain group is under-represented? If it's because said group is genuinely not interested, then nothing is lost. If it's because said group is discriminated against, then I'd agree, it is a loss.

There is some evidence that women are innately less interested in engineering than men. No doubt discrimination against women is an issue, but it's debatable whether it's the main reason why there's a lack of female representation in engineering.

Yes and if you wanted evidence you would have found it yourself.
I do want evidence, and I do find quite a lot of evidence, but it points in the opposite direction from what you indicate. Can you cite some things that support your assertion?
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #646 on: November 27, 2018, 09:21:15 pm »
Well  :popcorn:

Why not woman if she is good? And why man if he is not?

If we evaluate skills for job why is GENDER important?

Let it be, let people promote it BUT keep proper evaluation system for work place and who cares about all that then?

Pushing something because of irrational reasons would not give results what ever it is!

<3

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #647 on: November 27, 2018, 09:31:05 pm »
Also, I am not disagreeing with you that fewer women are interested in engineering than men, that is clearly true. But some of the reduced participation's causes may also be economic. Women simply having less money and also often having family persistently spend less money on them. And now society also seems to be washing its hands of its responsibilities to everybody who cant afford the outrageously high costs.

How do teenage women who are looking into studying engineering and getting in to the field have less money than men?
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #648 on: November 27, 2018, 09:35:33 pm »
Also, I am not disagreeing with you that fewer women are interested in engineering than men, that is clearly true. But some of the reduced participation's causes may also be economic. Women simply having less money and also often having family persistently spend less money on them. And now society also seems to be washing its hands of its responsibilities to everybody who cant afford the outrageously high costs.

How do teenage women who are looking into studying engineering and getting in to the field have less money than men?

Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #649 on: November 27, 2018, 09:40:16 pm »
Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD

What if they were conditioned differently so they don't depend on it?
 


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