Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 78181 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #875 on: June 21, 2019, 09:05:17 am »
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/News/diversity-engineering-12-women-not-enough

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Diversity in engineering: 12% of women is not enough
Chris Nielsen, President of Engineers Australia Queensland, weighs in on the urgent need to boost participation of women in engineering.
How can we be so skewed?
I’ve had many conversations with both men and women in engineering over the past year, listening to feedback on the reasons and issues as to why there are vastly more men than women in engineering in Australia.
A lack of women in our profession profoundly limits us, both in terms of absolute numbers of engineers

Nope, no shortage of engineers.

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and also in our ability to effectively function in a world where there are as many women as men.

Rubbish. The engineering community has functioned just fine since the dawn of time with a low percentage of female engineers.
Is having more women going to magically double some performance or innovation metric?

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As has been quoted several times, the engineering profession in Australia has left half the team on the bench, a situation which hasn’t significantly improved in a generation.

Nope, "the team" are qualified and practicing experienced engineers. Those who haven't gotten into engineering are not part of the team. And "the team" doesn't care whether it's 12% women or 50% women, "the team" is just "the team". Engineering doesn't care about gender even if you do.

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Our imbalance affects us all; gender equality is associated with improved productivity and economic growth, increased organisational performance, enhanced ability to attract talent and retain employees and enhanced organisational reputation (Workplace Gender Equality Agency).

How is there not equality of opportunity for gender in engineering?
Oh, you mean equality of outcome, silly me.

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There is no fundamental reason whatsoever why there shouldn’t be more women in engineering in Australia;

Yes, there is is, there have been many studies on the "males prefer things", you can't just ignore that evidence just because it doesn't fit your agenda.

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35% of engineers in Europe are women. Iran has more than 50% women in engineering and 70% of all STEM graduates are women.  Similar representation needs to be achieved in Australia if we are to continue our place as global leaders.

Why?
What better skills/innovation are women going to magically bring to engineering?
Are you saying that women are better than men at engineering in some way?

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Education, promotion, workplace improvements, work flexibility and addressing overt and unconscious bias are all necessary to improve our outcomes in the future.

Improve what outcome exactly?
Being an engineer you should know that we prefer to quantify things....

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For the present, we need to focus on the positives. I would argue that women in engineering are often better equipped to tackle challenges compared to their male counterparts because of the additional hurdles they have already successfully overcome.

And men haven't struggled too?

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Workplaces with gender equality tend to be better work environments because they reflect the real world, providing balanced opinions, perspective and diversity.

That's a pretty small part of engineering.

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In my experience, the best places to work are those with more women. Utilising these advantages is an opportunity for change.

What if female engineers applicants aren't the best qualified for the job? Do you still want to hire them to balance out the team?
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #876 on: June 21, 2019, 09:14:04 am »
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Diversity-Strategy

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It’s time for targets.
Diversity and inclusion is a multi-faceted concept and gender is an important factor demanding immediate attention.
Engineers Australia commends all of the actions described and, in particular, encourages organisations set targets to drive diversity and inclusion outcomes.
The initial focus of Engineers Australia is on improving workplace gender diversity and inclusion.
By pledging to it publicly, this is an expression of Engineers Australia’s commitment to closing the gap.
It complements ongoing efforts to lead the profession in application of the Code of Ethics, collaboration with governments and industry on how to bring more women to engineering and senior management, and achieve the vision of a truly diverse and inclusive profession.
We have chosen A Profession for All to encompass our Diversity and Inclusion programs. This call for an inclusive profession is very important – for Engineers Australia, industry, government and academia and we will progressively look at a number of key ways we can increase greater diversity in the profession
Take some time to read our resources.

So Engineering Australia wants to drive diversity to meet targets.
How about just encouraging people to do what interests them?
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #877 on: June 21, 2019, 09:23:35 am »
After WWII homes were tiny compared to what is being built today. And I mean tiny. One bathroom, a small living/dining room, a couple small bedrooms and that was it. A garage maybe. The size of American homes has been steadily increasing.

Today there are more cars but specially much better cars. Today's cars are cheaper and much better than those of 60 years ago.

What about electronics and communications. Sixty years ago they had a phone in the wall, with maybe a party line, and they could call across town because long distance was extremely expensive. They had a TV for entertainment and that was it. Today very cheaply we have TVs, computers, phones etc. which they could not imagine 60 years ago. And pretty much everybody can afford them.

There is no doubt in my mind that materially Americans today live much, much better than they did 60 years ago. And yet 60 years ago they seemed happier. Today all they do is bitch and complain.

To me, this is completely unsurprising.

Actually, I'm surprised how so many people think (or accept the idea) that having more entertainment devices around you, or a larger house consisting of empty rooms you don't actually need, or a "better" car where "better" doesn't mean any difference in its capability of taking you from place A to place B, would make anyone happier.

All of this is either completely irrelevant regarding happiness; or if it has some correlation, it's likely to make you less happy, by building stricter social expectations, and by driving you further from the things that are actually relevant to happiness.

Happiness has a lot to do with safety. So we have new cars that are "safer" than the old ones. But it is still equally dangerous (or much more dangerous than 100 years ago) to take a walk, and you are virtually forced to stay in your (almost armored) massive car to feel "safe". This is a jail. Any bicyclist who cycles a lot has probably an experience of almost getting murdered by a sociopath car driver. The answer you get from the society, "stop complaining and join us". Okay, so you get the point and hop into your bank's brand new $75000 2500kg SUV and start honking at the cyclists as well. Does this make you feel safe, deep down? I don't think so. (Pedestrian safety is of course something that the car manufacturers are finally starting to pick up, through their high-tech means, but this is a technological detail. Is this the right way to solve it?)

Happiness also has a lot to do with fulfilling the basic physical and emotional needs. You need a house with a roof to prevent rain falling on you, you need a kitchen to prepare food to eat, you need a bathroom for obvious reasons. You need a loved one to fuck with (literally). Now, does it make you happier if you have a large deluxe bathroom with two separate sinks 3 meters away, for you and your loved one, so that you don't need to be so close to each other? Actually, no, the opposite is true! Yet what we see in media, you need 5 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms and a massive amounts of empty space, to do, what? Most of the "normal" people living with these expectations are not Dave who need massive electronic storage, work spaces, etc. Their needs are mostly related to sleeping, eating, relaxing, being with the loved ones, yet the massive housing expectations actually drive people in the opposite direction.

All of this is why we see strange correlations where people seem to become less happy when they achieve the elements of "better life". The issue is that "better life" is defined in a way that serves the economy. At best, these things are just plain irrelevant. At worst, they make you unhappy and put you in a virtual jail.

We can accept this, but we shouldn't be surprised that people are less happy and are complaining more. They are lacking in their actual needs, because we as a society have hard time figuring out what these needs really are.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 09:36:57 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #878 on: June 21, 2019, 09:35:32 am »

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35% of engineers in Europe are women. Iran has more than 50% women in engineering and 70% of all STEM graduates are women.  Similar representation needs to be achieved in Australia if we are to continue our place as global leaders.

Why?
What better skills/innovation are women going to magically bring to engineering?
Are you saying that women are better than men at engineering in some way?
Even the claim is a load of bull... When I was applying to EE at university, it was 95%-5%.
Now, for the EU28, it is 25% in education.

"The second most common field of education was engineering, manufacturing and construction-related studies which accounted for 15.7 % of all tertiary education students. In this field, almost three quarters (74.1 %) of all students were male."
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #879 on: June 21, 2019, 10:12:30 am »
How about just encouraging people to do what interests them?
This would be the best for both the individual and for society as a whole but these new feminist social warriors have made up their mind that "freedom" does not extend that far because a woman who chooses a more traditional role can only be explained because she has been brainwashed by the system and therefore those women should be silenced.

Also, politics in the workplace is as old as humanity. Some guys know how to take advantage and move up and some guys were not so good and were left behind. It was a fact of life. Until now. Because now a woman can claim it is sexism if she doesn't come out ahead.

Women are being told and taught that if they do not come out on top then it is because the world is against females and this needs to be corrected.
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Online tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #880 on: June 21, 2019, 11:32:02 am »
[I think it's hard to do a direct comparison, most places have advantages and disadvantages and the grass is always greener on the other side. The USA does typically have a lower cost of living than most developed nations, houses are bigger, people tend to have more land, more space, more stuff, and energy is very cheap.

On the other hand our healthcare situation is a complete nightmare, much of our transportation infrastructure is a mess. Our politics are corrupt and there is a large income disparity but I don't think that is something uniquely American.

Despite the flaws, to me it's the best place on earth because it's home, that doesn't mean other places are inferior or that there isn't a great deal of room for improvement.
For sure comparisons are very hard, and will never be accurate for everyone, since we each weigh various criteria differently.

FWIW, while rural USA has low cost of living, the cost of living in the heavily populated urban and coastal areas of USA are no cheaper than elsewhere. I’m in one of the supposedly highest cost of living cities in the world, yet my cost of living is not really much higher than when I was living in suburban Maryland (Baltimore area), and it’s lower than what it would be in Washington DC, never mind New York or San Francisco. When I first moved to Switzerland in 1992, everything was MUCH more expensive here than in USA. (I moved back to USA for a while.) By the time I moved to Switzerland again in 2009, the difference was smaller, but in the last 10 years, Switzerland has stayed flat or even gotten cheaper in absolute terms, while USA has gotten far more expensive, making the difference between the countries dramatically smaller than it used to be.

Pretty much the only thing you listed that is definitely cheaper in USA is land.

As for income inequality, it’s definitely bad in USA and elsewhere. But not only the ratio matters, but also the baseline. I don’t think a country’s worst-paid workers mind high income inequality so much if their wages are still enough to have a decent quality of life. That’s the case here in Switzerland (where even a McDonald’s worker or grocery cashier or janitor makes a legitimately living wage), and definitely not the case in USA, where there is now no place at all where a full time minimum wage job is enough to afford to even rent a small apartment.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #881 on: June 21, 2019, 11:42:14 am »
Wrong. For most Americans, real income (income adjusted for inflation) has been stagnant or even gone down, and millennials are the first generation to be worse off than their parents. That Americans are unhappy has to do with the fact that quality of life is going down in USA, and even worse, people's prospects are seriously worse than ever. Income inequality in USA is worse than it's ever been. So on paper, the USA as a whole is doing well. But the strong economy is only benefiting a small number of people (literally the 1%). Everyone else is doing the same or worse than in the past.
Yes, inequality is getting worse everywhere, not only in America, but the standard of living is way above 60 years ago.

After WWII homes were tiny compared to what is being built today. And I mean tiny. One bathroom, a small living/dining room, a couple small bedrooms and that was it. A garage maybe. The size of American homes has been steadily increasing.
Actually they, too, have started to go back down.

The American standard of living peaked years ago. Even more so if you don’t just look at material goods, as you focused on.

You missed my point, though: The trajectory is now pointing down, whereas it used to point up. For everyone but the 1%, things are not getting better any more.

Back in the 1950s, Americans were optimistic, having come out of a world war, a depression, and then another world war. Millions of American families were able to move up to the middle class, and each generation did better than the one before in every metric: life expectancy, income, wealth, education, etc.

This turned around in the 80s, when reaganomics took all the spoils of growing productivity and put it squarely into the hands of the rich. The 90s were OK, but the 2000s screwed over everyone but the 1%. When the last recession ended and the economy began to improve, ALL of the economic recovery has benefited only the 1%. Everyone else has seen NONE of the recovery. The “low” unemployment numbers continue to hide the numbers of discouraged workers (those who gave up looking), low wage workers, and the massive number of people who only have part-time employment. (Even if they work multiple jobs to the equivalent of full time hours, it’s not the same, since they don’t get benefits.)
 

Offline Echo88

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #882 on: June 21, 2019, 12:01:37 pm »
@soldar: Chinese are happy people, US-people need more family to be not so isolated and women you dont like should be silenced. Yeah, now i understand the mental vicinity to China and the crap talk about the US. And dont state "i dont care at all about this", when youre busy writing in this thread all day long.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #883 on: June 21, 2019, 12:52:25 pm »
@ Echo88: do you have anything useful to contribute to the thread? Maybe something thoughtful about gender politics, social issues, cultural differences?
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #884 on: June 21, 2019, 01:49:59 pm »
“Money doesn’t necessarily have any connection with happiness. Maybe with unhappiness.”
Oil magnate J. Paul Getty.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #885 on: June 21, 2019, 02:12:01 pm »
“Money doesn’t necessarily have any connection with happiness. Maybe with unhappiness.”
Oil magnate J. Paul Getty.
Money has a very clear connection to happiness. Lots of money won't generally make you happier than an adequate amount, but an inadequate amount can cause great misery. This seemingly obvious point seems to get lost in many of these "money can't buy happiness" discussions.
 
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Offline jonovid

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #886 on: June 21, 2019, 02:35:03 pm »
engineers Australia looks like a UN not-for-profit or globalist NGO outfit.
 just look at the buzzwords & political jargon used here -
 diversity , inclusion ,  targets , progressive are all words used by
Cultural Marxism & feminism  if your a white male in engineering. they are coming to discriminate against you,
no joke!   this is social engineering.  ::)
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #887 on: June 21, 2019, 02:46:40 pm »
This social justice movement is anti-individualist tribalism.

They don't care about equality of individual persons.  It is almost if they are not self-aware at all.  (Perhaps becoming eusocial?)
When they encounter an obstacle or less than optimal situation for themselves, they refuse to acknowledge having anything to do with the situation personally, and claim that it is all because of animosity to a/the tribe they claim to belong to.

Consider, for a moment, social equality: because you happen to be a member of some group, you must relinguish any claim to individual egalitarism, and instead subject yourself to inequal treatment because some other people belonging to that same group may have had preferential treatment at some point.  Or because some other people in your group has been unfairly treated at some point in the past, that gives you the right to extra benefits -- just because you belong to that group.

Fuck tribes, they're ridiculous.  I want every individual to be treated equally.  And that means equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.
 
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Online tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #888 on: June 21, 2019, 02:49:36 pm »
“Money doesn’t necessarily have any connection with happiness. Maybe with unhappiness.”
Oil magnate J. Paul Getty.

“It’s only money. And everyone with money says money is not important.”
— Eric Bemis, Santa Clarita Diet

(#27 on https://www.needsomefun.net/best-29-santa-clarita-diet-tv-series-quotes/ )


“Money doesn’t necessarily have any connection with happiness. Maybe with unhappiness.”
Oil magnate J. Paul Getty.
Money has a very clear connection to happiness. Lots of money won't generally make you happier than an adequate amount, but an inadequate amount can cause great misery. This seemingly obvious point seems to get lost in many of these "money can't buy happiness" discussions.
Absolutely. I think in USA, they found that above something like $70K/yr, additional income did not buy extra happiness. But below it, it definitely did.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #889 on: June 21, 2019, 03:32:40 pm »
Money has a very clear connection to happiness. Lots of money won't generally make you happier than an adequate amount, but an inadequate amount can cause great misery. This seemingly obvious point seems to get lost in many of these "money can't buy happiness" discussions.

A true point, though often made, and lacks an important distinction: the limit for "inadequate" varies a lot, not only per region, but even more per person, and can be surprisingly high, or surprisingly low.

There are many, way too many upper middle class people living in a self-induced misery trying to sustain lifestyles of even higher class. (And it gets very nasty very quickly once high-interest loans get involved.)

Even some millionaires have these problems, while others do not.

Granted, people who can't afford any food or housing at all quite objectively live in a misery. Meanwhile, I have had situations where I have lived for under 1000€ per month for extended periods of time (incl. housing, electricity, internet, phone, food, hobbies, everything, in a country that's one of the most expensive in the world what comes to food, for example) very happily, and I know many people are in a total misery with a sum four or five times that due to self-induced needs I don't have.

We just read headlines of a local miserable celebrity on whose Ferrari a seagull took a dump on, and had to fight in court about some details of a yacht sales, being stressed about these two bad events. What's the problem? If he actually was rich, he would just call and ask to bring another of his ten Ferraris, and just bought another yacht or two. Yet he can't do that, and is miserable about such "incidents", clearly trying to live a higher status he actually can afford. Maybe he should drive a Mercedes-Benz or BMW instead?

The relativity of money is very interesting.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 03:38:37 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #890 on: June 21, 2019, 03:36:31 pm »
Money can't buy real happiness. Money can only buy fake happiness. But they make fake happiness so good these days you often cannot tell if it's real or not. I have had good results with fake happiness although I would recommend getting the real thing if you can.

Same thing with love. Money can't buy me real love but it can buy me lots of fake love which can still be pretty good even though it only lasts as long as the money is flowing.

So if you ask me what would I rather be, healthy and rich or poor and sick, I'd have to go with the former because being poor and sick is no way to go through life.

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Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #891 on: June 21, 2019, 05:47:45 pm »
There is no doubt in my mind that materially Americans today live much, much better than they did 60 years ago. And yet 60 years ago they seemed happier. Today all they do is bitch and complain.

And exactly the same thing can be said about Spain. Exactly the same. Spanish people have a standard of living higher than anything Spain has ever seen and yet all I hear is bitching and complaining. All anybody does any more is bitch and complain.

I suspect it's largely the fact that at the time the standard of living was rapidly improving. The economy was strong, there were lots of good blue collar jobs, the great depression was a recent memory, the USA came out of WWII largely unscathed having been driven by the war through a technological revolution unlike anything the world had seen before, it had become a world superpower. People were optimistic because the outlook was good and getting better all the time. No matter how good you have it, you'll probably feel a lot better if things are steadily improving than if things are steadily declining. A person earning $20k a year but getting a substantial raise and promotion every year is probably going to be happier than someone who is making $250k a year but getting a pay cuts and demotions.

These days most people have everything they really need and much more. Things have largely stopped improving, the future outlook is not so good, the wage gap is bigger than ever before, the blue collar jobs that enabled ordinary people to make a comfortable living without a specialized college degree are vanishing which is a bit like a train racing toward the end of the track. The populated areas are getting ever more crowded, traffic is unbearable, housing costs are rising and gentrification is ejecting people from the areas they called home. Having already solved a lot of the big problems we are left with a mix of much bigger problems that are much harder to solve and stuff that was formerly not an issue being turned into a problem by the social justice/PC types with nothing better to do because the easy stuff that was actually a problem has already been done.
 
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Online rrinker

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #892 on: June 21, 2019, 07:58:29 pm »
 Cleaning out my Mom's house a few years ago, came across some ax forms from when my Dad was still alive (he passed away in 1975). As a blue collar worker (welder, assembling large condensers of the sort used in power plants), his yearly salary in the early 70's was little more than I make in a month today. Of course, we had a car that was as old as I was (only 9 in 1975 - but we kept that car until 1981). And our house cost less than $15k US. My rather modest house, even calculating inflation, was still more than twice the cost. And the thing is, the same thing that caused the housing crisis a few years back in the US is STILL in play, as the banks try to convince you to buy more house. I could afford more, comfortably, and a lot more if I was willing to basically work for my house. But I don;t NEED more - I remarked to someone he other week, so what if the bank says I could afford a 4000 sq ft house, what would I DO with it? There's two of us live here. Change off which bedroom I sleep in every week just to use all of the house? Even in my much smaller house, I have a room which goes completely unused, and that's after taking one for an office. I guess that's an advantage of being of the in between generation, too young to be an actual Baby Boomer, with parents who were older, both of mine were young during the Depression and WWII, and learning the value of being thrifty through their example.  This whole mentality of instant gratification and waiting in lines overnight for the newest i-gadget - I just don't understand it. I can't really wrap my head around that sort of mentality. Even things in a price range where I could buy it right this instance and have absolutely no material effect other than having that much less to save that month, I still think about it and search for the best deals. I make very few impulse buys,
 I am above that $70k threshold, so I guess maybe that's why I am fairly happy from a monetary standpoint, but even if my salary was for some reason cut by $20k, I could still afford my house and everything that goes with it, at the expense of fewer meals out and no longer increasing my savings, but I wouldn't have to use it up to get by. It's a long lost concept in the US, it seems - living within your means. That way, surprises don't bankrupt you - like the leaking expansion tank on my water heater today. Or the 6 eye surgeries I've had over the past 3 years. But who has time for living within your means? The government doesn't, why should the citizens?
                                                             
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #893 on: June 21, 2019, 08:37:29 pm »
I suspect it's largely the fact that at the time the standard of living was rapidly improving. The economy was strong, there were lots of good blue collar jobs, the great depression was a recent memory, the USA came out of WWII largely unscathed having been driven by the war through a technological revolution unlike anything the world had seen before, it had become a world superpower. People were optimistic because the outlook was good and getting better all the time. No matter how good you have it, you'll probably feel a lot better if things are steadily improving than if things are steadily declining. A person earning $20k a year but getting a substantial raise and promotion every year is probably going to be happier than someone who is making $250k a year but getting a pay cuts and demotions.

These days most people have everything they really need and much more. Things have largely stopped improving, the future outlook is not so good, the wage gap is bigger than ever before, the blue collar jobs that enabled ordinary people to make a comfortable living without a specialized college degree are vanishing which is a bit like a train racing toward the end of the track. The populated areas are getting ever more crowded, traffic is unbearable, housing costs are rising and gentrification is ejecting people from the areas they called home. Having already solved a lot of the big problems we are left with a mix of much bigger problems that are much harder to solve and stuff that was formerly not an issue being turned into a problem by the social justice/PC types with nothing better to do because the easy stuff that was actually a problem has already been done.
I agree very much. We have met the enemy and he is us.

I think once you have a certain standard of living you have more time and energy to dedicate to imaginary problems or "problems" which are really creations of opinion leaders who make a living off of this.

Take women in engineering. How exactly is this a problem? Women who wanted to become engineers became engineers. Most chose to do something else. There was no problem. But a few social warriors took up what they thought was a good cause. If women's numbers in engineering were low it must mean they are discriminated against. Repeat that a few times and you have a cause and soon you are getting elected and governments are giving grants to address "the problem" which by now everybody knows is a real problem because it has been repeated so many times.

In spite of millions spent in all sorts of women's studies and all sorts of campaigns and "education", things change little or nothing because human nature is what it is. So the apostles of the cause demand more money and effort be dedicated to the noble cause. The amounts being wasted in Spain on all this feminist crap are staggering. In 2010 the socialist prime minister created a Ministry of Equality and put in charge a young woman with no qualifications whatsoever. She enjoyed going to parties and clubs in her official car with driver. They did a few stupid ads telling men to do the dishes and she donated a few million euros to some UN feminist body which hired her when she lost her job as minister. She just bought her new job with a few millions of public money.

This is just one example of the waste and corruption happening with the feminist excuse. In fact nothing changes and they use that as a reason to demand more money.

Sort of reminds me of campaigns in communist countries against "counterrevolutionaries", that kind of thing. People are stirred into a frenzy and lose all reason.


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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #894 on: June 21, 2019, 09:02:12 pm »
One thing hard to understand in modern feminism is the feminist's desire to increase the women's share in positions that are something I genuinely find outright evil. Another one is the feminist importance of money, a stance not shared by average women, who are less interested in money than average men - a good trait in my opinion, regardless of gender.

No feminist demands more women as firefighters, waste collectors or other genuinely important and good jobs.

Large corporate CEOs, politicians and lawyers it must be!

I as a man - and most of all, as a person - genuinely enjoy being in the kitchen, making food or doing dishes. Not only as a hobby, I can accept the idea of doing a lot of it; it's actual work I can do for myself, and bypass taxation of work while doing so. And if I still end up reproducing, I'm 100% positive I'm going to spend a lot of time to raise my kids, changing diapers and so on. This desire comes from my idea of what it is to be a good person, regardless of gender; and I do understand that women, on average, by biology, feel even stronger this way. So why is it wrong for a woman to enjoy this idea as well? Aren't these good things?

Thanks to feminists, it's OK for me as a man to think this way. A woman cannot anymore.

On the other hand, I find that it's fairly typical for a CEO (traditionally a white male) to be a narcissist sociopath. Not everyone, but the ratio is definitely higher than in general public. I find that it's fairly typical for a politician (traditionally a white male) to be corrupt as hell. Not every politician, but generally they are.

So feminists clearly do have a point here, these particular white male generalizations / role models totally suck. But the logic totally ends at this point. Why the heck is the end result so that women must seek these exact bad things? And why is it so that females who end up doing narcissist sociopathic things as CEOs, or being corrupt as hell politicians, are the feminist success stories?

This is something I have hard time understanding.

Nooo, don't try to replicate the bad sides of men. You can be strong and independent without being a narcissistic asshole. The fact that such an asshole white male made a lot of money and become "successful" on the eyes of media 50 years ago, doesn't need to mean anything. Don't replicate the mistake, we can do better. Let's all be proud about the good things as human beings instead, shall we?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 09:13:35 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #895 on: June 21, 2019, 09:40:52 pm »
We like to think people are either good or bad but all people are a mixture of good and bad. A person can be loving and tender towards some people and a complete sociopath towards others. Plenty of examples in history.

I have known more women psychopaths than men. I have often thought that it may derive from a feeling of weakness and is a mechanism of self defense. I have seen a few divorces where the women went all out ballistic without any regard for anyone, including their own children. I have generally seen the men be much more measured.

In other words being a psychopath does not come from strength and it may come from weakness. And it is not a yes/no characteristic. It can be yes towards some and no towards others.

We are surrounded by psychos but, fortunately, most are not in a position to harm us.

That is why there are so many cases of police abuse and war crimes. Give people a chance and many will act on their inclinations. And others near them who were not specially inclined will look the other way or even participate.

Women are not less psychopathic than men. 
All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #896 on: June 21, 2019, 11:00:10 pm »
One thing hard to understand in modern feminism is the feminist's desire to increase the women's share in positions that are something I genuinely find outright evil. Another one is the feminist importance of money, a stance not shared by average women, who are less interested in money than average men - a good trait in my opinion, regardless of gender.
No feminist demands more women as firefighters, waste collectors or other genuinely important and good jobs.
Large corporate CEOs, politicians and lawyers it must be!

And for some reason, engineering. And not just a bit, but a LOT.
I'm not quite sure when engineering became this highly sort after high status career. it's always been, well, pretty boring and nerdy to most people, especially electronics.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #897 on: June 21, 2019, 11:19:26 pm »
I guess that's an advantage of being of the in between generation, too young to be an actual Baby Boomer, with parents who were older, both of mine were young during the Depression and WWII, and learning the value of being thrifty through their example.  This whole mentality of instant gratification and waiting in lines overnight for the newest i-gadget - I just don't understand it. I can't really wrap my head around that sort of mentality. Even things in a price range where I could buy it right this instance and have absolutely no material effect other than having that much less to save that month, I still think about it and search for the best deals. I make very few impulse buys.

That's something I don't get either. It depresses me sometimes to think that virtually anything I could ever need or want, somebody has thrown one away simply because they couldn't be bothered to have a simple problem fixed. I've gotten so much free stuff over the years it's crazy, my clothes washer, dryer and dishwasher were all free, the washer and dryer had minor problems that took less than 15 minutes to fix. I've gotten multiple cars for free, one of which because it broke down, I resoldered the fuel pump right there in the driveway and drove it home. I've never paid money for a TV yet I've owned more than I can count, my current 60" LCD just needed a few new LEDs in the backlight. I know people who have gone through 5 expensive smartphones in the time I've had just the one I have now. Many times someone has given me something when they replaced it with a new one and then a few years later they're replacing it yet again while I'm still using the one they gave me.

My income, while substantially higher than the national average is modest for where I live but largely because I have never been motivated much by money so I have not aggressively climbed the corporate ladder. I think growing up without much money was extremely beneficial, I learned to be thrifty and sensible, I learned to repair things, I get much more joy out of bringing something cast off back to life than I do taking a shiny new gadget out of the box. A new car is only new once, but it feels great to say hey I got this car for only a few hundred bucks, fixed it myself and have been driving it for x number of years.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #898 on: June 21, 2019, 11:35:53 pm »
Take women in engineering. How exactly is this a problem? Women who wanted to become engineers became engineers. Most chose to do something else. There was no problem. But a few social warriors took up what they thought was a good cause. If women's numbers in engineering were low it must mean they are discriminated against. Repeat that a few times and you have a cause and soon you are getting elected and governments are giving grants to address "the problem" which by now everybody knows is a real problem because it has been repeated so many times.


My observation is that it became a problem once computers became ubiquitous and tech companies started raking in enormous amounts of money. Having spent my whole life a few miles from Microsoft I was around through the time when they were minting millionaires and I worked there for a while myself early in my career at a time when there were still a lot of guys in their late 30s and early 40s who were retiring. Somebody noticed that all these guys, and yes they were mostly guys, were making bucket loads of money and then it became an issue.

Now I would be reasonably inclined to agree this were an issue if not for the circumstances I observed previously. I was always obsessed with technology, engineering and fascinated by computers for as long as I remember. When I was in grade school I was one of the stereotypical geeks hanging out with the other socially awkward geeks playing with the computers we had in class. I cannot even describe how much flak we took from all the "normal" kids, by being interested in computers we were nerds, geeks, dweebs, dorks, outcasts and even talking about computers was about the most sure way to repel girls that there was. It was not until I was a teenager that I finally realized that girls for the most part just were not interested in any of that stuff and my social life improved immeasurably when I learned to just keep it between myself and the other geeks and consciously developed some "normal" interests like music, sports, movies, outdoor activities and such.

Now fast forward a few decades and these groups that shunned us engineer types are suddenly upset that they are "left out" of something we were ridiculed incessantly for being involved in and frankly I find it a a little offensive. We didn't drive women out of engineering, we were involved in engineering despite the negative attitudes of others because for us it was not just an interest or a path to a paycheck but a life calling. Women are perfectly welcome and I'd love to see more female engineers but it is up to them to get the needed education and pursue these careers, it is not our responsibility to try to tilt the playing field enough to satisfy some quota. I find it very telling also that the focus is all on the lack of women in engineering but nobody seems concerned by the lack of women in mining, construction, trades, and other male dominated fields, and even fewer people are up in arms by the under-representation of men in fields like early education and veterinary medicine. I don't see anyone upset over the fact that men suffer some 80% of workplace injuries and deaths. 
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #899 on: June 22, 2019, 01:38:17 am »
MOD EDIT: Video on Maxism removed, we don't need that stuff here.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 01:47:20 am by EEVblog »
 


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