Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 82326 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #900 on: June 22, 2019, 01:45:25 am »
Take women in engineering. How exactly is this a problem? Women who wanted to become engineers became engineers. Most chose to do something else. There was no problem. But a few social warriors took up what they thought was a good cause. If women's numbers in engineering were low it must mean they are discriminated against. Repeat that a few times and you have a cause and soon you are getting elected and governments are giving grants to address "the problem" which by now everybody knows is a real problem because it has been repeated so many times.

Yep, I don't get it, it's just a social cause for the sake of a social cause.
I don't think anyone would seriously argue there isn't equality of opportunity for girls in engineering. If a girl want to become an engineer she can, and plenty do chose that.
And I don't think anyone is going to argue there is a glut of unemployed female engineers. In fact I can't say I've heard a single complaint that a female engineer can't get a job.
And I don't think anyone can seriously argue there aren't female engineer role models being promoted, you see it everywhere. Heck, they make the front cover of Wired magazine.
And I don't think anyone can seriously argue there is a lack of female-only programs, both education and financial (female only startup funding etc).

So again, where is the problem?
They have all that and they want to somehow force 50% representation? This is insane.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #901 on: June 22, 2019, 01:54:56 am »
Now I would be reasonably inclined to agree this were an issue if not for the circumstances I observed previously. I was always obsessed with technology, engineering and fascinated by computers for as long as I remember. When I was in grade school I was one of the stereotypical geeks hanging out with the other socially awkward geeks playing with the computers we had in class. I cannot even describe how much flak we took from all the "normal" kids, by being interested in computers we were nerds, geeks, dweebs, dorks, outcasts and even talking about computers was about the most sure way to repel girls that there was.

Or worse, try being a teenager into electronics before the internet, I got beat up and constantly teased in the playground for bringing Electronics Australia to school.

Quote
Now fast forward a few decades and these groups that shunned us engineer types are suddenly upset that they are "left out" of something we were ridiculed incessantly for being involved in and frankly I find it a a little offensive.

Yes indeed.

Quote
We didn't drive women out of engineering, we were involved in engineering despite the negative attitudes of others because for us it was not just an interest or a path to a paycheck but a life calling. Women are perfectly welcome and I'd love to see more female engineers but it is up to them to get the needed education and pursue these careers, it is not our responsibility to try to tilt the playing field enough to satisfy some quota.

Absolutely yes.
When I was young before the internet I had zero friends into electronics, I was completely alone in my shed for a decade.
I would have been happy to find a chimpanzee that was interested in it, let alone another kid, girl or boy I wouldn't have cared.
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #902 on: June 22, 2019, 01:57:41 am »
MOD EDIT: Video on Maxism removed, we don't need that stuff here.

Marxism is just a critique of capitalism and its ills.  Dr. Wolffe argues that we should look at the criticism as well as listen to the evangelizers to come up with a better form of capitalism.  I saw nothing wrong with it, but its your board.  I'd invite you to watch his argument. 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #903 on: June 22, 2019, 02:00:12 am »
MOD EDIT: Video on Maxism removed, we don't need that stuff here.

Marxism is just a critique of capitalism and its ills.  Dr. Wolffe argues that we should look at the criticism as well as listen to the evangelizers to come up with a better form of capitalism.  I saw nothing wrong with it, but its your board.  I'd invite you to watch his argument.

You obviously did get the hint, so I'll make it clear, do not derail this thread with talk on Marxism, Capitalism, or any form of politics. We don't talk about that stuff on this forum, this is not the place for it. There are plenty of other forums to do that on.
It's bad enough that we have to talk about gender "politics", but at least it's about engineering so it's on-topic.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #904 on: June 22, 2019, 02:24:57 am »
If only the bi-gender war is not enough to stir shit up...

 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #905 on: June 22, 2019, 02:25:52 am »
You obviously did get the hint, so I'll make it clear, do not derail this thread with talk on Marxism, Capitalism, or any form of politics. We don't talk about that stuff on this forum, this is not the place for it. There are plenty of other forums to do that on.
It's bad enough that we have to talk about gender "politics", but at least it's about engineering so it's on-topic.

Understood Dave.  I'll keep it on topic.

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/News/diversity-engineering-12-women-not-enough

Quote
Diversity in engineering: 12% of women is not enough
Chris Nielsen, President of Engineers Australia Queensland, weighs in on the urgent need to boost participation of women in engineering.
How can we be so skewed?
I’ve had many conversations with both men and women in engineering over the past year, listening to feedback on the reasons and issues as to why there are vastly more men than women in engineering in Australia.
A lack of women in our profession profoundly limits us, both in terms of absolute numbers of engineers

Nope, no shortage of engineers.


I'm not sure about Australia, but there is a shortage of engineers in the U.S.
https://www.gobrightwing.com/2019/02/12/research-engineering-talent-shortage/#!/
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-08-23/americans-think-they-have-a-shortage-of-stem-workers
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #906 on: June 22, 2019, 02:27:11 am »
Am I the only one getting the feeling this thread may have run its course?
It seems we have another three sided coin.
The two sides and the ones that insist that standing it up it's a side too, and round and round it goes....
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #907 on: June 22, 2019, 02:48:08 am »
Am I the only one getting the feeling this thread may have run its course?

It may have, but I think it's important to keep threads like this open so that people can post new links to things happening in this space.
Just because we've all had our say on the subject doesn't mean there isn't value in keeping track of what's happening, as this can have a big impact upon our industry, it's an important issue.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #908 on: June 22, 2019, 02:49:49 am »
If only the bi-gender war is not enough to stir shit up...


I had to check, and sure enough they have change the logo. I believe it's pride month and this thing is as common as mud now days
They are also pushing Immigrant Heritage Month on their website banner.
Their choice, whatever floats their boat.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 02:51:27 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #909 on: June 22, 2019, 05:04:11 am »
...
Women are perfectly welcome and I'd love to see more female engineers but it is up to them to get the needed education and pursue these careers, it is not our responsibility to try to tilt the playing field enough to satisfy some quota.
...

I don't think women want any playing-fields tilted.  Have they advocated such a thing?
What the folks advocating gender equality in engineering are doing, is to bring awareness to the lack of women, and pushing for understanding as to why this remains so in the engineering field, and hopefully change the mindset of both men but particularly women about the issue. 

Its not about any lack of opportunity for women, because all the opportunities are there.  Its all about changing attitudes and overcoming subconscious biases brought about by culture in order to foster more women in the field.  If they're talking about percentages as targets, then that obviously sends the wrong message. 

Attached is a paper on this topic.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #910 on: June 22, 2019, 05:41:16 am »
Quote
What the folks advocating gender equality in engineering are doing, is to bring awareness to the lack of women, and pushing for understanding as to why this remains so in the engineering field, and hopefully change the mindset of both men but particularly women about the issue. 

Sounds like one could build a whole career on that; and publish papers; and be famous; and give TED talks;
and until the numbers are "even", it's job security. Yeah!


   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #911 on: June 22, 2019, 08:10:23 am »
I don't think women want any playing-fields tilted.  Have they advocated such a thing?

Yes, they have. Read Engineering Australia's official position that I posted the other day. They want it corrected to 50/50 and are calling for quota's etc to get it done.

Quote
What the folks advocating gender equality in engineering are doing, is to bring awareness to the lack of women, and pushing for understanding as to why this remains so in the engineering field, and hopefully change the mindset of both men but particularly women about the issue. 

No, they willfully ignore the likely real reason that is based on long held research.

Quote
If they're talking about percentages as targets, then that obviously sends the wrong message. 

They are, and it's why this thread is as long as it is. No one would care if it's just simply supporting and promoting more girls to get into engineering. It's gone way beyond that to adsurd levels.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 08:13:52 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #912 on: June 22, 2019, 08:33:13 am »
This study shows the greater the freedom of choice women have the less they choose STEM options. Women in countries where there is less equality are more likely to choose STEM options because they consider it a way to empower themselves. Algeria has a much higher percentage of female engineers than America.
The Gender-Equality Paradox in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics Education


I do not understand why it is so difficult to accept that women have different interests. If you take any other species, and more so in mammals, the sexes are clearly different in their roles and disposition. From a very young age the sexes naturally act differently and take different roles.

But now we are being told in humans this is not so and any differences are due to cultural impositions. It is interesting to note that pretty much across all cultures the roles of men and women are roughly similar. That is too much of a coincidence but the preachers of the new "equality" preach on against all evidence.

People are so immersed in this craziness they cannot see it for what it is.


In Spain this issue has gotten totally out of hand. Every government and every institution has an "observatory" for equality. Every government, every city government, every university, has a department that studies inequality and promotes "equality". The whole thing costs millions upon millions to pay for people who "study" how bad and unequal things are and promote "equality" (as defined by them).  I cannot think of any actual positive results achieved but we all continue to pay for this madness. Every university has a department to promote "equality". 

The woman heading the national "Observatory of violence against women", Angeles Carmona, is a parody. She is in her mid 50s and has a face that looks like a mask because it is all plastic surgery. She dresses like a teenager and wants her face to look like a Barbie doll but instead she looks like a really sad and demented woman. Just looking at her photo is a definition of "what women should avoid at all costs" but because of her radical views she has been selected to head the "observatory" where they spend a lot of money doing studies that have never achieved anything useful except for those people who get the money. 

They do interviews where they preach their gospel and boast about Spain spending more on equality than other countries.

The fact that real women do not fit into their views is irrelevant. They say those women are conditioned by culture and even if they don't really know it, deep down they would like to be engineers. They just don't know it.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #913 on: June 22, 2019, 08:44:46 am »
Here in the Netherlands also some commotion.
The technical university Eindhoven will only accept cv's of women for the professor positions.

Many reactions the best I found:

Male professor: "in itself I think it is good that the percentages of female profs will increase, however the pool of qualified and willing women is lower than men. I work average  55+ hours a week and many women I spoke that have a family are interested in 24 hour part time jobs to have a good work/life balance. Perhaps that is where the focus should be in the future, but at the moment it is all about networking, patents and scientific publications and you only exceed if you put in the hours"

Female researcher: "in the 50s tot the 70s married women were forbidden to work, that is pure discrimination and outright wrong. Having vacancies and not accepting male applicants is also discrimination and just wrong."
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #914 on: June 22, 2019, 08:49:19 am »
I don't think women want any playing-fields tilted.  Have they advocated such a thing?

Yes, they have. Read Engineering Australia's official position that I posted the other day. They want it corrected to 50/50 and are calling for quota's etc to get it done.

Ok I just read their position.  I didn't see anything in there talking about quotas or targeting 50/50 gender diversity.  They do talk about "gender diversity targets" but don't state what that means.  I took it to mean they possibly want some measurable increase from the current 88/12 ratio as a sign of progress... but it could mean they just want to know the company cared enough to address the issue through education, with just the increased awareness toward better understanding being an acceptable "target." 
I think they're leaving it open-ended on purpose so that companies don't have to commit to any diversity ratio; rather they want companies to commit to increasing awareness. 

I read this page: https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Diversity-Strategy
And two PDF links on that page:

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/resource-files/2017-09/420330%20A%20profession%20for%20all%20A4%20single%20pages%20WEB%20C.pdf

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/resource-files/2017-12/508988%20D&I%20Action%20Plan%20-%20Final.pdf

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #915 on: June 22, 2019, 09:09:20 am »
I don't think women want any playing-fields tilted.  Have they advocated such a thing?

Yes, they have. Read Engineering Australia's official position that I posted the other day. They want it corrected to 50/50 and are calling for quota's etc to get it done.

Ok I just read their position.  I didn't see anything in there talking about quotas or targeting 50/50 gender diversity.  They do talk about "gender diversity targets" but don't state what that means.

Everyone knows it means they want 50/50. No new age feminist agenda would ever be happy with 70/30 or 60/40 and then call it day.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 09:13:36 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #916 on: June 22, 2019, 09:47:06 am »
...
I do not understand why it is so difficult to accept that women have different interests. If you take any other species, and more so in mammals, the sexes are clearly different in their roles and disposition. From a very young age the sexes naturally act differently and take different roles.

But now we are being told in humans this is not so and any differences are due to cultural impositions. It is interesting to note that pretty much across all cultures the roles of men and women are roughly similar. That is too much of a coincidence but the preachers of the new "equality" preach on against all evidence.
...

I don't think they discount the fact that women may have different interests than men.  What they want to make men and women aware, is the fact that there really are cultural hindrances for women who do have an interest in becoming an electrical engineer, and how women are discouraged from taking such a route due to a lot of social bias. 

To paraphrase a PDF I posted earlier:
Structural and cultural barriers (to Women entering Engineering):
* Narrow focus - Currently, engineering over-emphasize logical thinking at the expense of critical thinking. Specifically, the “culture of disengagement” in many college engineering programs does a poor job of training future engineers in their ethical and social responsibilities and cultivates an understanding of nontechnical concerns, such as the public welfare, as irrelevant to “real” engineering work.  These elements of engineering culture are not confined to the college environment but persist once engineers enter the workforce, and although they are likely to discourage many women and men from pursuing engineering, they are perhaps especially discouraging for women because women are more likely than men to express a preference for work with a clear social purpose

* Isolation - Women in engineering and computing fields often report isolation, a lack of voice, and a lack of support. A study of women and men working in technology at 21 high-tech companies found that women were less likely than men to indicate that their supervisors were receptive to suggestions, less likely to say that their supervisors were available when they needed them, and less likely to agree that “it is safe to speak up most of the time.”  In one study of women in private-sector technical jobs, a third said that they felt extremely isolated at work.

* Stereotypical surroundings - The physical environment in engineering or computing classrooms and workplaces can make a difference in how comfortable women find the environment. In one study, female students who entered a room containing stereotypical “geek” objects were less likely to identify themselves with computing or feel they belonged with a company or on a team (even an all-female team) than did women who entered a room containing genderneutral objects.

* Work-life balance issues  - Work-life balance is an important issue for workers, especially women, in engineering and computing. Some researchers argue that rather than work-life balance, the real issue is a “culture of overwork.” Organizational cultures of overwork result in dissatisfaction among women and men. Because culturally women are expected
to fulfill the responsibilities associated with home and family and men are expected to be the breadwinners, women may experience negative outcomes as a result of this culture of overwork more frequently than men do. For example, a survey of midlevel scientists and engineers in high-tech companies found that women were more likely than men to suffer poor health and to delay or forgo getting married and having children as a result of work demands. When employers in male-dominated fields such as engineering and technology expect employees to work long hours (more than 50 hours per week), women with children are much more likely than men or childless women not only to leave their employer but to exit the paid workforce entirely. This research suggests that when work responsibilities become incompatible with the demands of family life, women, especially mothers, find themselves in a situation in which they must choose between work and family.

* Stereotypes and biases - Gender stereotypes tend to place greater social value on men and evaluate men’s competence as greater than women’s. One specific area in which men are stereotypically deemed more competent than women is mathematics. Parents’ and teachers’ expectations for children’s mathematical achievement are often gender-biased and can influence children’s attitudes toward math. Parents’ and teachers’ own feelings about math can rub off on children. In one study, no relationship was found between first and second grade female teachers’ math anxiety and their students’ math achievement at the beginning of the school year. By the school year’s end, however, the more anxious female teachers were about math, the more likely girls (but not boys) in their class were to endorse the commonly held stereotype that “boys are good at math, and girls are good at reading” and the lower these girls’ math achievement was.



Ok this is just a sampling of the points made in the paper on how culture actively and passively discourage women. 
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #917 on: June 22, 2019, 10:17:02 am »
...
I do not understand why it is so difficult to accept that women have different interests. If you take any other species, and more so in mammals, the sexes are clearly different in their roles and disposition. From a very young age the sexes naturally act differently and take different roles.

But now we are being told in humans this is not so and any differences are due to cultural impositions. It is interesting to note that pretty much across all cultures the roles of men and women are roughly similar. That is too much of a coincidence but the preachers of the new "equality" preach on against all evidence.
...

I don't think they discount the fact that women may have different interests than men.  What they want to make men and women aware, is the fact that there really are cultural hindrances for women who do have an interest in becoming an electrical engineer, and how women are discouraged from taking such a route due to a lot of social bias. 
Many do deny that women and men have different interests. Its implicit in the endless mantra that a non-50%-50% split between men and women is a clear indication of an oppressive patriarchy (or, perhaps, matriarchy in things like life sciences, where women are in the majority  :)). If that is their only plausible explanation for a difference in outcome, they are denying that any other factor possibly exists.

The main factor discouraging women from entering engineering is women telling them not to. Most of the times I've heard a female engineer complain about bias against her, it was from other women. The strongest voices here are the radical feminists who paint a truly dystopian picture of life as a female engineer. What sane woman would want to enter a profession where those horror stories were true.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #918 on: June 22, 2019, 10:40:55 am »
I don't think they discount the fact that women may have different interests than men.  What they want to make men and women aware, is the fact that there really are cultural hindrances for women who do have an interest in becoming an electrical engineer, and how women are discouraged from taking such a route due to a lot of social bias. 
That is an assertion presented as a given with no valid evidence to support it. And when asked for support they present the lower numbers of women in STEM which makes no sense.

--Women are hindered from entering STEM. The proof is in the lower numbers.
--What if the lower numbers stem ;) from women just preferring other things as proven by studies?
--That is an unacceptable hypothesis because it means we would have to close shop and lose grants and go and find real jobs. Anyone who doubts our unsupported assertion is a sexist pig and the enemy of all women.

That's more or less how it goes.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #919 on: June 22, 2019, 11:00:06 am »
I don't think they discount the fact that women may have different interests than men.  What they want to make men and women aware, is the fact that there really are cultural hindrances for women who do have an interest in becoming an electrical engineer, and how women are discouraged from taking such a route due to a lot of social bias. 

Yet magically, there is apparently no such bias in the life sciences were women now dominate the graduates, where they didn't before, the numbers used to be as low as for the various branches of engineering. Why is it so? Why, when society levels the opportunities, do women pour into life sciences and not engineering?
It's certainly not through a lack of role models, media coverage, programs, societies, and even (often borderline illegal) gender bias in favor of women, there has been that for several decades now.

Perhaps, just perhaps, engineering isn't not as popular because it's not as glamorous a job, it's generally considered more  boring and nerdish. Ok, so that has social factors, granted, but when you factor in that engineering is more "things" oriented, bingo, you have your answer, as the research clearly shows women are not as naturally biased towards "things" as males are. And that is not a social thing, it's innate through evolution.
Then you get more evidence of the scandinavian countries that have tried to even this out, and instead of engineering numbers increasing, they decreased. The opposite to what was expected, thus providing further evidence to back up the "things" hypothesis.

So bingo, you have two sets of clear evidence based on research and societal trials that give the reasons why there are less women in engineering. But the radical feminists don't want to except that evidence, it simply has to be societal pressure and/or the male patriarchy etc.

The evidence is quite clear when you look at it, it all points in one direction. The radical feminists are wrong and they will never achieve 50/50 in engineering using natural means. Deep down they know this, so they push harder and harder to make it happen by social intimidation, quotas etc.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 11:04:41 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #920 on: June 22, 2019, 12:05:28 pm »
Everyone knows it means they want 50/50. No new age feminist agenda would ever be happy with 70/30 or 60/40 and then call it day.

Actually I don't think 50:50 is that relevant for them. Surprisingly many of those nutjobs actually target 0:100, nothing else. For example, when the new government ministers were chosen here, and the first time in history ratio of men:women exceeded 50:50, we heard a lot of commentary such as "this is a good start towards equality, but we are still far away from true equality", very clearly indicating only 0:100 is true equality.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #921 on: June 22, 2019, 01:29:12 pm »
Cleaning out my Mom's house a few years ago, came across some ax forms from when my Dad was still alive (he passed away in 1975). As a blue collar worker (welder, assembling large condensers of the sort used in power plants), his yearly salary in the early 70's was little more than I make in a month today. Of course, we had a car that was as old as I was (only 9 in 1975 - but we kept that car until 1981). And our house cost less than $15k US. My rather modest house, even calculating inflation, was still more than twice the cost.
Indeed, the cost of real estate is insane now. One metric used is the ratio of avg. home cost to median household income. And by that metric, it's high now (around 4:1), but not as high as in the 50s, for example. However, I suspect that if we looked at the same number for, say, the first quartile, it might look different, since their income has been far more stagnant.

But moreover, the sale price-to-median-income ratio in cities has just gone insane. It's now almost 10:1 in many cities. So while the average ratio for the whole country might not be very different, the cities have become unaffordable for anyone but the super-wealthy.

Meanwhile, the median home cost (adjusted for inflation) shows that the cost has doubled since 1990, and more than quadrupled since 1950. Some of this is due to the stupid size growth you mention later, but most of it isn't.

And of course, that's for the entire country, including stagnant areas. The cities, again, have outpaced this by a wide margin.


And the thing is, the same thing that caused the housing crisis a few years back in the US is STILL in play, as the banks try to convince you to buy more house. I could afford more, comfortably, and a lot more if I was willing to basically work for my house. But I don;t NEED more - I remarked to someone he other week, so what if the bank says I could afford a 4000 sq ft house, what would I DO with it? There's two of us live here. Change off which bedroom I sleep in every week just to use all of the house? Even in my much smaller house, I have a room which goes completely unused, and that's after taking one for an office.
Yep. A huge problem for younger people who want to buy a starter home these days is the fact that they aren't building those any more! I think many people would be happy to buy a 1200sq ft house, if they could find one to buy! But for years, developers in USA have just been building poorly-made McMansions...

There has, in recent years, been a slight trend downwards in average square footage of new homes, but it's still much too high. And the supply of small old houses just isn't big enough, or they may be in such disrepair that a young buyer can't afford the risk of it needing major repair.


This whole mentality of instant gratification and waiting in lines overnight for the newest i-gadget - I just don't understand it. I can't really wrap my head around that sort of mentality. Even things in a price range where I could buy it right this instance and have absolutely no material effect other than having that much less to save that month, I still think about it and search for the best deals.
I think it's more a stereotype than anything founded in reality; the number of people who actually wait in line for a new iPhone is statistically insignificant. It's probably a few tens of thousands worldwide, out of literally hundreds of millions of iPhones sold annually.

Moreover, it's a fine line between "don't wait in line for a new phone" and "poor people shouldn't own nice things", which is the mentality a lot of non-poor Americans have adopted. They're happy to ignore the fact that a smartphone isn't a luxury any more, that for many poor people (in USA and worldwide), it's their only way to get online, which is the only way to apply for most jobs now -- and the phone needs to work in order to take the callback from HR.

Similarly, Americans taking on debt to buy a car isn't as stupid as it sounds, when you consider that nearly all Americans live in a place where a reliable car is an absolute prerequisite to being able to get and hold onto a job.

In other words, it's a fine line from "don't live frivolously" and poor-shaming.


I make very few impulse buys, I am above that $70k threshold, so I guess maybe that's why I am fairly happy from a monetary standpoint, but even if my salary was for some reason cut by $20k, I could still afford my house and everything that goes with it, at the expense of fewer meals out and no longer increasing my savings, but I wouldn't have to use it up to get by. It's a long lost concept in the US, it seems - living within your means. That way, surprises don't bankrupt you - like the leaking expansion tank on my water heater today. Or the 6 eye surgeries I've had over the past 3 years. But who has time for living within your means? The government doesn't, why should the citizens?
OK, but even at 50K you'd already be above the 60th percentile. You're doing far better than most Americans, so you have tons of wiggle room to work with.

A huge number of Americans make so little money that "living within their means" literally means going naked and homeless. There's nowhere in USA where you can live on $20K a year (the 20th percentile) and save money for a rainy day. At that income level, you're lucky if you are even food-secure.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 01:31:18 pm by tooki »
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #922 on: June 22, 2019, 02:33:28 pm »
I don't think they discount the fact that women may have different interests than men.  What they want to make men and women aware, is the fact that there really are cultural hindrances for women who do have an interest in becoming an electrical engineer, and how women are discouraged from taking such a route due to a lot of social bias. 

Yet magically, there is apparently no such bias in the life sciences were women now dominate the graduates, where they didn't before, the numbers used to be as low as for the various branches of engineering. Why is it so? Why, when society levels the opportunities, do women pour into life sciences and not engineering?
It's certainly not through a lack of role models, media coverage, programs, societies, and even (often borderline illegal) gender bias in favor of women, there has been that for several decades now.
...

I think this article has a pretty good explanation.
http://www.browndailyherald.com/2016/03/16/women-in-science-tend-to-gravitate-toward-biology-cognitive-sciences/
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #923 on: June 22, 2019, 02:43:18 pm »
Indeed, the cost of real estate is insane now. One metric used is the ratio of avg. home cost to median household income. And by that metric, it's high now (around 4:1),
...
But moreover, the sale price-to-median-income ratio in cities has just gone insane. It's now almost 10:1 in many cities. So while the average ratio for the whole country might not be very different, the cities have become unaffordable for anyone but the super-wealthy.

People pretty much everywhere and for decades now have, on average, been spending 1/4 to 1/3 of their income on housing and up to 1/2 if they wanted to live in locations with high demand.

It would be nicer if it was lower but I don't see anything wrong with it. Prime location real estate is limited and I see nothing wrong with the highest bidder getting it. So young people can't afford it? So what? We can't all have everything we want and we can't all live in prime locations. That is just life and the laws of physics.

The young person who can't get it should feel happy for the other person who paid more and got it. It's not like there's lots of prime real estate sitting empty for years because the owner is asking too much. The owner gets what he can.

Meanwhile, the median home cost (adjusted for inflation) shows that the cost has doubled since 1990, and more than quadrupled since 1950. Some of this is due to the stupid size growth you mention later, but most of it isn't.
...

Yep. A huge problem for younger people who want to buy a starter home these days is the fact that they aren't building those any more! I think many people would be happy to buy a 1200sq ft house, if they could find one to buy! But for years, developers in USA have just been building poorly-made McMansions...

So home builders are not building what the market demands? Why is that? Because it seems to me they would be rather build what sells than what does not sell.


I don't like to see this modern attitude of "things are wrong and someone ought to do something about it because I deserve a comfortable life".

So you can't get to live where you would prefer? Tough luck. Most people don't either. Everybody makes compromises.

The world is as it is. If other people pay more for goods then they get them. That is how the world works.

I do not understand people who think they have inherent right to live better than previous generations. That is not how the world works. Sometimes things get better and sometimes things get worse.

Now, I do agree that inequality is a problem. A serious problem which needs to be addressed. And it is not a simple problem to address. It needs a lot of understanding of the causes and how it might be ameliorated without causing bigger problems elsewhere.

And reducing inequality is not going to solve all problems. There are many problems that are structural and/or cultural. Retired people want to continue to receive pensions and benefits without regard to who or how they are paid. For decades old folks have been receiving in retirement much more than they put into the system but this is unsustainable in the long run.

Inequality should be reduced but this requires a responsible government with long term thinking and very careful planning which pretty much means it is not going to happen. It will be used in a partisan manner by all concerned but nothing effective will be done.
All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #924 on: June 22, 2019, 02:53:16 pm »
I don't think they discount the fact that women may have different interests than men.  What they want to make men and women aware, is the fact that there really are cultural hindrances for women who do have an interest in becoming an electrical engineer, and how women are discouraged from taking such a route due to a lot of social bias. 
That is an assertion presented as a given with no valid evidence to support it. And when asked for support they present the lower numbers of women in STEM which makes no sense.

--Women are hindered from entering STEM. The proof is in the lower numbers.
--What if the lower numbers stem ;) from women just preferring other things as proven by studies?
--That is an unacceptable hypothesis because it means we would have to close shop and lose grants and go and find real jobs. Anyone who doubts our unsupported assertion is a sexist pig and the enemy of all women.

That's more or less how it goes.

If you actually read the PDF, it cites a scientific study for every claim they make. Lower numbers are just a symptom of the bias, not the proof. 
Just ask Neil deGrasse Tyson - "what's up with chicks and science?" - short clip:



 
 


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