Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 82554 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #975 on: June 26, 2019, 08:38:08 pm »
I keep seeing mentioned in various pro equality-of-outcome sources that a gender balance improves overall productivity, but then I don't see much in the way of justification for the statement.

This is quite a key claim. Can anyone point me to sources of how this statement is validated?

Who is advocating for equality of outcome?
Yeah. Though I'm sure one can find examples of this, I think it's mostly a claim made by conservatives to try and disparage "liberals". Not many actual liberals advocate for equality of outcome, it's a fringe belief.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #976 on: June 26, 2019, 09:24:05 pm »
I keep seeing mentioned in various pro equality-of-outcome sources that a gender balance improves overall productivity, but then I don't see much in the way of justification for the statement.

This is quite a key claim. Can anyone point me to sources of how this statement is validated?

Who is advocating for equality of outcome?
Yeah. Though I'm sure one can find examples of this, I think it's mostly a claim made by conservatives to try and disparage "liberals". Not many actual liberals advocate for equality of outcome, it's a fringe belief.
10 years ago it was a fringe belief. Now you rarely hear a demand for equality. The demand is now usually for equity, and by that they mean numerically equal outcomes, regardless of other factors.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #977 on: June 26, 2019, 10:19:16 pm »
Anti–affirmative-action people have been claiming for at least 30 years that the goal is equal outcomes. I don't think there's any credible change in actual attitudes.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #978 on: June 26, 2019, 10:21:50 pm »
Have you even read this thread? There are numerous examples of people advocating equality of outcome. Not everyone is, but that doesn't mean nobody is.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #979 on: June 26, 2019, 10:38:30 pm »
Have you even read this thread? There are numerous examples of people advocating equality of outcome. Not everyone is, but that doesn't mean nobody is.
Ahem:
Yeah.Though I'm sure one can find examples of this, I think it's mostly a claim made by conservatives to try and disparage "liberals". Not many actual liberals advocate for equality of outcome, it's a fringe belief.

I never said nobody. I said I don't think it's increased at all:
Anti–affirmative-action people have been claiming for at least 30 years that the goal is equal outcomes. I don't think there's any credible change in actual attitudes.

Also remember that I'm saying that many people who are accused of demanding equal outcomes have in fact only demanded equal opportunities.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #980 on: June 26, 2019, 11:32:52 pm »
Have you even read this thread? There are numerous examples of people advocating equality of outcome. Not everyone is, but that doesn't mean nobody is.

Whoever they are, they're doing it wrong.  Simply meeting quotas  leads to more negative outcomes than positive...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #981 on: June 27, 2019, 12:08:37 am »
My wife is the only nurse for instance that works 36 hours which is 100% in her job. The rest are 16 - 24 hours jobs. Many woman spent many hours taking care of the kids and the household.
The availability of part time work is a large driver in fertility BTW. You really want women to be able to work part time, with structurally lower pay (even per hour, a full time employee is simply more valuable). Because the alternative is even less kids.


I advertised my part time logistics job on a mums social group, they went CRAZY, like it was the greatest job ever, I had hundreds of applications from mums within a small few km radius that wanted a flexible 10hr/week job.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #982 on: June 27, 2019, 12:26:00 am »
My wife is the only nurse for instance that works 36 hours which is 100% in her job. The rest are 16 - 24 hours jobs. Many woman spent many hours taking care of the kids and the household.
The availability of part time work is a large driver in fertility BTW. You really want women to be able to work part time, with structurally lower pay (even per hour, a full time employee is simply more valuable). Because the alternative is even less kids.
I advertised my part time logistics job on a mums social group, they went CRAZY, like it was the greatest job ever, I had hundreds of applications from mums within a small few km radius that wanted a flexible 10hr/week job.
A few recent studies in Europe seem to indicate that around 2/3rds of women graduates don't really want to return to work after having children, but will consider part time work if it allows a good work/parenting balance. I found that number really high, but it doesn't surprise me that its quite a common goal. Most of my wife's friends avoided returning to work unless finances forced them to. My wife taught English privately part time after our children were old enough, and had no interest in full time work.
 

Offline SteveyG

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #983 on: June 27, 2019, 06:41:16 am »
A few recent studies in Europe seem to indicate that around 2/3rds of women graduates don't really want to return to work after having children, but will consider part time work if it allows a good work/parenting balance. I found that number really high, but it doesn't surprise me that its quite a common goal. Most of my wife's friends avoided returning to work unless finances forced them to. My wife taught English privately part time after our children were old enough, and had no interest in full time work.

I would imagine the number is not so dissimilar for men. Who wants to go back to work after enjoying family life? Maternity/Paternity leave is hugely social and brings far bigger rewards than sitting at a desk for 8 hours.

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #984 on: June 27, 2019, 10:15:17 am »
Not many actual liberals advocate for equality of outcome, it's a fringe belief.
Anti–affirmative-action people have been claiming for at least 30 years that the goal is equal outcomes.
:-//

Have you even read this thread? There are numerous examples of people advocating equality of outcome. Not everyone is, but that doesn't mean nobody is.
Whoever they are, they're doing it wrong.  Simply meeting quotas  leads to more negative outcomes than positive...
Typical mansplaining and concern trolling, they know what they are doing better than you. Only a diverse workplace can be free of implicit bias and internalized patriarchy, it's a catch-22 that women in tech have been struggling with for decades. Otherwise obviously the representation would already be 50/50, can anyone deny that?

It's the Actual Liberals who are a "fringe belief" :palm:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #985 on: June 27, 2019, 11:34:46 am »
Typical mansplaining and concern trolling, they know what they are doing better than you. Only a diverse workplace can be free of implicit bias and internalized patriarchy, it's a catch-22 that women in tech have been struggling with for decades. Otherwise obviously the representation would already be 50/50, can anyone deny that?

There are 28 forum pages of denying this.
I count no less than five classic SJW talking points in two sentences, that's impressive.
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #986 on: June 27, 2019, 11:41:16 am »
I advertised my part time logistics job on a mums social group, they went CRAZY, like it was the greatest job ever, I had hundreds of applications from mums within a small few km radius that wanted a flexible 10hr/week job.
How do we get EE firms to hire three or four women to fullfill one fte  ???
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #987 on: June 27, 2019, 11:59:05 am »
I keep seeing mentioned in various pro equality-of-outcome sources that a gender balance improves overall productivity, but then I don't see much in the way of justification for the statement.
This is quite a key claim. Can anyone point me to sources of how this statement is validated?
Who is advocating for equality of outcome?


There have been plenty of examples in this thread, it's common as mud.
I just posted the other day a link to BHP who have a stated goal (outcome) to have a 50/50 workforce.
And if equality of outcome is not the desired (or stated) goal of those arguing for more women in STEM, then what number would they be happy with? At what number will they stop advocating for it?
30%?
40%?
45%?
You can see where I am going with this. Those who argue for more women in STEM, are essentially asymptoting toward a 50/50 outcome (or better in some cases) and everyone knows it.
Like this, "let's close the gender gap" and "#makethefuture gender balanced". When you hear the word "gap" or "balance", you know they mean they won't be happy until it's 50/50.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 12:05:47 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #988 on: June 27, 2019, 12:31:52 pm »
I keep seeing mentioned in various pro equality-of-outcome sources that a gender balance improves overall productivity, but then I don't see much in the way of justification for the statement.
This is quite a key claim. Can anyone point me to sources of how this statement is validated?
Who is advocating for equality of outcome?
There have been plenty of examples in this thread, it's common as mud.
I just posted the other day a link to BHP who have a stated goal (outcome) to have a 50/50 workforce.
Maybe others have mentioned this, but I only see this push towards high paying jobs, not gender equality for the machinist or mechanic at the offshore platform. I wonder why that is... :popcorn:

And if equality of outcome is not the desired (or stated) goal of those arguing for more women in STEM, then what number would they be happy with? At what number will they stop advocating for it?
30%?
40%?
45%?
You can see where I am going with this. Those who argue for more women in STEM, are essentially asymptoting toward a 50/50 outcome (or better in some cases) and everyone knows it.
Like this, "let's close the gender gap" and "#makethefuture gender balanced". When you hear the word "gap" or "balance", you know they mean they won't be happy until it's 50/50.
You know that several of the fringe groups will not be happy if it reaches 50/50. They will find another target to aim, and then the issue will become something else. That is what fourth wave feminism is about.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #989 on: June 27, 2019, 01:17:32 pm »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #990 on: June 27, 2019, 08:44:19 pm »
I keep seeing mentioned in various pro equality-of-outcome sources that a gender balance improves overall productivity, but then I don't see much in the way of justification for the statement.
This is quite a key claim. Can anyone point me to sources of how this statement is validated?
Who is advocating for equality of outcome?


There have been plenty of examples in this thread, it's common as mud.
I just posted the other day a link to BHP who have a stated goal (outcome) to have a 50/50 workforce.
And if equality of outcome is not the desired (or stated) goal of those arguing for more women in STEM, then what number would they be happy with? At what number will they stop advocating for it?
30%?
40%?
45%?
You can see where I am going with this. Those who argue for more women in STEM, are essentially asymptoting toward a 50/50 outcome (or better in some cases) and everyone knows it.
Like this, "let's close the gender gap" and "#makethefuture gender balanced". When you hear the word "gap" or "balance", you know they mean they won't be happy until it's 50/50.



gender gap
noun
the differences between women and men, especially as reflected in social, political, intellectual, cultural, or economic attainments or attitudes.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gender-gap

 

Offline daniel5555

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #991 on: June 29, 2019, 03:35:58 pm »
You can see where I am going with this. Those who argue for more women in STEM, are essentially asymptoting toward a 50/50 outcome (or better in some cases) and everyone knows it.
Like this, "let's close the gender gap" and "#makethefuture gender balanced". When you hear the word "gap" or "balance", you know they mean they won't be happy until it's 50/50.
As someone who argues for more women in STEM, I strongly disagree with what you are saying in this quote.

I don't even know how you inferred the whole "50/50" thing and that "everyone knows it". I don't know it, for an instance.

The reason why I (and many others, I presume, but I don't speak on behalf of others) are advocating for more women in STEM is because I think that currently society often incentivizes women to choose and pursue a career in social, economic or humanitarian sciences instead of STEM. And the result is that many women who would otherwise pursue a STEM career because they have talent and interest in it, choose not to do it because of social pressure or because they weren't exposed enough to opportunities it offers.

To me it's not about the numbers, it's about having STEM as an attractive option to everyone. So as long as everyone would be exposed to STEM and be able to choose it as a career to pursue without pressure to not do so, it doens't matter to me whether it's 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30. I believe this is what most people advocating for more women in STEM really want.
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #992 on: June 29, 2019, 07:16:31 pm »
The reason why I (and many others, I presume, but I don't speak on behalf of others) are advocating for more women in STEM is because I think that currently society often incentivizes women to choose and pursue a career in social, economic or humanitarian sciences instead of STEM. And the result is that many women who would otherwise pursue a STEM career because they have talent and interest in it, choose not to do it because of social pressure or because they weren't exposed enough to opportunities it offers.
Society? You mean parents who dress their girls from age 0 in pink and later as a disney princess, not to be mad but cry etc etc and boys in blue , knight, not to cry ?
I don't see what that has to do with STEM? Here in my country people choose at age 15 in highschool their study programm and which to drop.
No-one forces them to choose anything it is their choice perhaps guided by their parents but I really don't see your point? How would you like to change this? Forcing parents to change their education?
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #993 on: June 29, 2019, 08:40:31 pm »
You can see where I am going with this. Those who argue for more women in STEM, are essentially asymptoting toward a 50/50 outcome (or better in some cases) and everyone knows it.
Like this, "let's close the gender gap" and "#makethefuture gender balanced". When you hear the word "gap" or "balance", you know they mean they won't be happy until it's 50/50.
As someone who argues for more women in STEM, I strongly disagree with what you are saying in this quote.

I don't even know how you inferred the whole "50/50" thing and that "everyone knows it". I don't know it, for an instance.

The reason why I (and many others, I presume, but I don't speak on behalf of others) are advocating for more women in STEM is because I think that currently society often incentivizes women to choose and pursue a career in social, economic or humanitarian sciences instead of STEM. And the result is that many women who would otherwise pursue a STEM career because they have talent and interest in it, choose not to do it because of social pressure or because they weren't exposed enough to opportunities it offers.

To me it's not about the numbers, it's about having STEM as an attractive option to everyone. So as long as everyone would be exposed to STEM and be able to choose it as a career to pursue without pressure to not do so, it doens't matter to me whether it's 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30. I believe this is what most people advocating for more women in STEM really want.
There are now 52% women and 48% men in STEM courses in the UK. The figures in other developed countries aren't so different. So, if you don't demand a 50/50 split, just what is acceptable to you?
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #994 on: June 29, 2019, 08:57:55 pm »
Quote
just what is acceptable to you?

Asking to define what is "acceptable" sounds like you are trying to place a limit on "accomplishments" and change the cause from an open-ended result, to something  limited in scope with a constrained, defined goal.
 
If horse beaters quit after the horse is dead, they would be out of a job.

 :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse: 
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #995 on: June 29, 2019, 09:01:27 pm »
Quote
just what is acceptable to you?

Asking to define what is "acceptable" sounds like you are trying to place a limit on "accomplishments" and change the cause from an open-ended result, to something  limited in scope with a constrained, defined goal.
 
If horse beaters quit after the horse is dead, they would be out of a job.

 :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:

But just exactly what are we going to do with all of the tenderized horse meat?
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #996 on: June 29, 2019, 09:13:19 pm »
Quote
just what is acceptable to you?

Asking to define what is "acceptable" sounds like you are trying to place a limit on "accomplishments" and change the cause from an open-ended result, to something  limited in scope with a constrained, defined goal.
 
If horse beaters quit after the horse is dead, they would be out of a job.

 :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:  :horse:
Are you saying activists need to push their agenda without limit, and when there are zero men in STEM they need to be offered a good retirement plan? Because if not, I have no idea how to interpret what you said.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #997 on: June 29, 2019, 09:25:16 pm »
Quote
Are you saying activists need to push their agenda without limit, and when there are zero men in STEM they need to be offered a good retirement plan? Because if not, I have no idea how to interpret what you said.
My comment is  most definately "anti-activistic".
I'm saying that "activists" with an defined and accomplished goal have nothing to be "active" about.
It's also my position that all this "activism" has served as a career builder/ differentiator  for some.
Biases exist.  But there is out of control unbalanced , just as out of control balanced.

I don't see anyone advocating 50/50 kindergarden teachers, firefighters,  oil-drill workers, refuse collection and disposal, or butchers for that matter.  Can't build a careeer advocating that!!



   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #998 on: June 29, 2019, 10:17:22 pm »
My comment is  most definately "anti-activistic".
I'm saying that "activists" with an defined and accomplished goal have nothing to be "active" about.
Wouldn't that be a good thing?

It's also my position that all this "activism" has served as a career builder/ differentiator  for some.

Yes it has.  Is that a bad thing?  They wouldn't have a career if what they're fighting for wasn't supported by a significant number of people willing to donate or join them for the cause.  If the goals had been largely accomplished, the donors and volunteers would disappear, and they'd need to move to doing something else.
There are some fringe activists but their voices largely fall on deaf ears.

Biases exist.  But there is out of control unbalanced , just as out of control balanced.

I don't see anyone advocating 50/50 kindergarden teachers, firefighters,  oil-drill workers, refuse collection and disposal, or butchers for that matter.  Can't build a careeer advocating that!!

So that's a good thing, isn't it?

Oh BTW, "firefighters" do a lot more than just fight fires...
https://www.firerescue1.com/recruitment/articles/378107018-Recruiting-female-firefighters-Closing-the-gender-gap/

« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 10:19:56 pm by windsmurf »
 

Offline daniel5555

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #999 on: June 30, 2019, 12:30:16 am »
The reason why I (and many others, I presume, but I don't speak on behalf of others) are advocating for more women in STEM is because I think that currently society often incentivizes women to choose and pursue a career in social, economic or humanitarian sciences instead of STEM. And the result is that many women who would otherwise pursue a STEM career because they have talent and interest in it, choose not to do it because of social pressure or because they weren't exposed enough to opportunities it offers.
Society? You mean parents who dress their girls from age 0 in pink and later as a disney princess, not to be mad but cry etc etc and boys in blue , knight, not to cry ?
I don't see what that has to do with STEM? Here in my country people choose at age 15 in highschool their study programm and which to drop.
No-one forces them to choose anything it is their choice perhaps guided by their parents but I really don't see your point? How would you like to change this? Forcing parents to change their education?
I don't think that "forcing" someone to do something is a good idea. What I think is right approach is to try to make STEM-fields as attractive as possible to the maximum number of people possible. Like if you have certain inclinations for STEM, then come study it at our university and such. This is something really common, actually.

So when it comes to women, what can be done is simply targeting it specifically for them, like showing them the women engineers who currently work in the field, organizing meetings and stuff like that. In many countries and places there is still a stereotype that women don't do well in engineering or other STEM-fields, so they may even have certain pressure to not pursue that career. This can simply be countered by events and actions like this. As you see, no need to force anybody, just present an alternative point of view to what is currently established in that particular society.

You can see where I am going with this. Those who argue for more women in STEM, are essentially asymptoting toward a 50/50 outcome (or better in some cases) and everyone knows it.
Like this, "let's close the gender gap" and "#makethefuture gender balanced". When you hear the word "gap" or "balance", you know they mean they won't be happy until it's 50/50.
As someone who argues for more women in STEM, I strongly disagree with what you are saying in this quote.

I don't even know how you inferred the whole "50/50" thing and that "everyone knows it". I don't know it, for an instance.

The reason why I (and many others, I presume, but I don't speak on behalf of others) are advocating for more women in STEM is because I think that currently society often incentivizes women to choose and pursue a career in social, economic or humanitarian sciences instead of STEM. And the result is that many women who would otherwise pursue a STEM career because they have talent and interest in it, choose not to do it because of social pressure or because they weren't exposed enough to opportunities it offers.

To me it's not about the numbers, it's about having STEM as an attractive option to everyone. So as long as everyone would be exposed to STEM and be able to choose it as a career to pursue without pressure to not do so, it doens't matter to me whether it's 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30. I believe this is what most people advocating for more women in STEM really want.

There are now 52% women and 48% men in STEM courses in the UK. The figures in other developed countries aren't so different.
Well, I would definitely challenge this statement. First of all, the figures are different. Here is an example showing that there can be significant differences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_STEM_fields#/media/File:Percentage_of_women_graduates_in_ICT_tertiary_education_programmes_(EU,_2016).svg

Second, the actual percentages depend on the field. From the same Wikipedia article:

Quote
In the European Union only 16.7% on average of ICT (Information and communication technology) specialists are women. Only in Romania and Bulgaria do women hold more that 25 percent of these roles. The gender distribution is more balanced, particularly in new member states when taking into account ICT technicians (middle and low-ranking positions).[6]

In 2012 the percentage of women PhD graduates was 47.3% of the total, 51% of the social sciences, business and law, 42% of the science, mathematics and computing, and just the 28% of PhD graduates in engineering, manufacturing and construction. In the computing subfield only 21% of PhD graduates were women. In 2013 in the EU as an average men scientists and engineers made up 4.1% of total labour force, while women made up only 2.8%. In more than half of the countries women make up less than 45% of scientists and engineers. The situation has improved, as between 2008 and 2011 the number of women amongst employed scientists and engineers grew by an average of 11.1% per year, while the number of men grew only by 3.3% over the same period.[29]

In other words, if in some STEM-fields historically there was a high percentage of women (medicine, biology?) that doesn't mean that there is equally high percentage of women in other fields, such as electronics, computer science or embedded.

Since there are STEM-fields where there is a significant percentage of women and others where such a percentage is low, it's possible that the cause of different percentages is that certain fields are not attractive and it's not because of the field itself, but rather because of social constructs surrounding that field.

So, if you don't demand a 50/50 split, just what is acceptable to you?
As I said before, any number is acceptable to me and my interest in this matter is not based on numbers of that kind. It's simply based on my own impressions and experiences of working in the computer science. That is, I think that it's pretty obvious that women engineers have it tough there, not because of the field itself, but rather because of the certain hostility towards them entering and staying active. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone, but generally I would say that what so called "activists" say actually pretty much is correct.

If that hostility goes away, I don't really care if there's only 10% of women in the field or less.

Asking to define what is "acceptable" sounds like you are trying to place a limit on "accomplishments" and change the cause from an open-ended result, to something  limited in scope with a constrained, defined goal.
Having a constrained and defined goal doesn't necessary imply having a number, because not everything can or should be quantified.

Quality of user experience usually doesn't have a defined metric - doesn't mean it's not important or can't be improved.

I don't see anyone advocating 50/50 kindergarden teachers, firefighters,  oil-drill workers, refuse collection and disposal, or butchers for that matter.
And?

If we assume that some people want 50/50 in STEM-fields that doesn't mean they should be advocating for 50/50 in anything else. Perhaps because those fields have nothing to do with STEM and the reasons for different percentages are completely different.

Can't build a careeer advocating that!!
I don't see how you can build a career on that while also being an engineer. Perhaps a politician could do that or someone who's already doing more management than actual engineering.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 12:33:07 am by daniel5555 »
 


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