Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 82732 times)

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Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #825 on: June 05, 2019, 10:58:24 am »
The real problem is that these useful idiots tend to ignore facts (that many women simply don't choose technical careers) and go for the mob. Nowadays, there is the bandwagon of the "progressives", which IMO are a complete departure for the classical liberals. Progressives feel that the state should cater for their needs, while guaranteeing safe spaces and controlling the general population. Freedom of choice and freedom of speech are no longer valid options. For them, the state should restrain personal freedom in favor of the collective (so we can all be equal?). Something akin to communism fascism.
That is the history of humans since the beginning of time. Humans have the inclination to belong to a group and the group is defined as being a group as opposed to all others who are not part of it. We are social. In primitive societies the group can be family, clan, tribe, etc. As countries develop into states people will feel they belong to their country but still belong to smaller groups like family, sports team, workplace, etc.

Every time I see sports fans fighting with the fans of another team it makes me think how primitive we really are.

It is easy for leaders to manipulate that and get their group to try to expand and wipe out those who are different or think different.  It is the natural tendency and it takes a lot of education to learn tolerance.

A group preaches their cause and how it is moral and just. Anybody who does not agree is painted as evil and backward and immoral. Then subgroups have to compete for being more for the cause than the others.

In communist countries you had to be more communist than the next guy and in western countries you had to be more anti-communist than the next guy. You would send the bad guys to jail? That is going too soft! I would execute them!

People are afraid not only of expressing contrary opinions but even opinions that are not strong enough in favor of the cause and against its perceived enemies. There is no place for questions or dissent, only enemies.

People repeat like mantras things that are clearly and obviously false or totally unsupported by any evidence. And no amount of evidence or reasoning is going to get them to move an inch.

Women do not go into engineering because men prevent them! And it has to be true because everybody says so and because what other reason could there be?

It is not only with women, in America it is with blacks and other minorities. If some group is statistically underrepresented in a certain profession it must be due to prejudice and discrimination.

These waves come and go. One subsides only to be replaced by the next one. You cannot fight against the mentality of the mob. The best thing is to try to stay out and not get drowned by it.

The problem comes when it affects your decision making. You need to hire an engineer and you are told you need to hire a woman or a minority. In some cases it might not be too bad but I do not want to be under the knife of a heart surgeon who was hired because they were a minority.
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Offline virtualparticles

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #826 on: June 05, 2019, 11:38:07 am »
I have to say, I wouldn't want to see a really good candidate languishing because someone of another gender was being put first. That being said, When I was hiring engineers, I did look for talented females because a good engineering team really needs both genders to function well and they are somewhat under-represented in the labor pool. I doubt that my slight bias for this had enough of an impact on the total workforce to cause a qualified male engineer to go jobless.

Men and women are meant to work together.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #827 on: June 05, 2019, 12:09:26 pm »
Men and women are meant to work together.
By who or by what? because to me it sounds just like any other unsupported assertion. "Men work better when they are not distracted by women and can concentrate on their work."
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Offline bloguetronica

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #828 on: June 05, 2019, 01:07:05 pm »
That is the history of humans since the beginning of time. Humans have the inclination to belong to a group and the group is defined as being a group as opposed to all others who are not part of it. We are social. In primitive societies the group can be family, clan, tribe, etc. As countries develop into states people will feel they belong to their country but still belong to smaller groups like family, sports team, workplace, etc.
That is very dangerous, when you surrender your critical thinking to fit within a mob. That's why you see, for example, the yellow jackets behaving so stupidly. They think that by destroying small businesses (they don't target luxury stores) they can change something. And what they want to change? That's why I was happy when the same "movement" failed miserably in Portugal.

Anyway, critical thinking should be taught in schools. The individual is a big part in society. It it wasn't for the need for self improvement, we would be still living in a feudal system.

I have to say, I wouldn't want to see a really good candidate languishing because someone of another gender was being put first. That being said, When I was hiring engineers, I did look for talented females because a good engineering team really needs both genders to function well and they are somewhat under-represented in the labor pool. I doubt that my slight bias for this had enough of an impact on the total workforce to cause a qualified male engineer to go jobless.

Men and women are meant to work together.
I would rather prefer to be integrated in a competent team with say, 5% women, than in an incompetent team with 50% women that satisfies some arbitrary quota. It is proven that most women simply don't have a vocation or inclination for STEM. A female brain works differently than a male brain, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying that one is superior and the other is inferior. Conversely, many men fail when the subject requires interpretation of texts, or generally at subjective disciplines.

That, just to say that meritocracy goes a long way, and unfortunately, many people are against it.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 01:38:22 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #829 on: June 05, 2019, 02:02:04 pm »
The real problem is that these useful idiots tend to ignore facts (that many women simply don't choose technical careers) and go for the mob.
Funny you mentioned that - the Brazilian president called some student ranks the same thing - the ones that were joining protests to fight for the improvement of education in Brasil, but instead they were primed to push another agenda (free the corrupt vile leftist former president Lula).

What was more interesting was to see some of my former university EE friends defending this position - something they forgot that in university we were harassed by the same mob of useful idiots that wanted us Engineers (and other majors such as medicine and law) to join their ranks and defend their left agenda. All we wanted was to be left alone as our majors were already hard enough to be bothered by this.
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Offline virtualparticles

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #830 on: June 05, 2019, 02:33:15 pm »
True, I just have anecdotal data to support my statement. The groups I worked in that had women in them were more productive and "fun". Maybe that isn't everyone's experience though. I've been at this for forty years so I've been in a many different group settings.
 

Offline bloguetronica

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #831 on: June 05, 2019, 04:36:10 pm »
True, I just have anecdotal data to support my statement. The groups I worked in that had women in them were more productive and "fun". Maybe that isn't everyone's experience though. I've been at this for forty years so I've been in a many different group settings.
That is a bit of a slippery slope. It is a situation that can end up being positive or negative. Too much "fun" degrades productivity. Also, there is another situation to consider: on-job third wave feminists trashing someone's career due to false harassment allegations. Some ideologies are just not compatible with a work environment.

In the end, it is meritocracy that matters. The job positions should be filled by anyone that can do their job properly, and not just to obey quotas. Imagine if men had to protest to have a minimum male percentage in jobs where women are prevalent. Would feminists agree? I don't think so.

Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 04:38:11 pm by bloguetronica »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #832 on: June 06, 2019, 04:18:15 pm »
Also, there is another situation to consider: on-job third wave feminists trashing someone's career due to false harassment allegations. Some ideologies are just not compatible with a work environment.

Thankfully I have yet to come across a third or fourth wave feminist in the workplace. I do come across people who consider themselves feminists, but when you (gently) discuss it with them, they're normal people who want equality of opportunity just like everyone else who's not stuck in the 70s. They don't know about the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome, or the difference between equality and equity in academic grievance studies terms. I'm pretty sure that 95%+ of those who use the label casually outside of academia are by no means the swivel eyed activists or extremists we see on Youtube as modern day Victorian human curiosities.

If you're in academia, all bets are off of course, and the circus freak show I am sure is a sight to behold, albeit not in a good way.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #833 on: June 06, 2019, 09:55:00 pm »
True, I just have anecdotal data to support my statement. The groups I worked in that had women in them were more productive and "fun". Maybe that isn't everyone's experience though. I've been at this for forty years so I've been in a many different group settings.

Well I've enjoyed working in groups with women too, however I think it had more to do with the fact that they were generally pleasant people to be around than the fact they are women. Also they were all competent at their job.

I think that in general, men enjoy being around women in all manner of circumstances, at least heterosexual men do. I don't think this is exactly surprising.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #834 on: June 18, 2019, 06:30:44 am »
Quote
For the time being, Eindhoven University of Technology is opening vacancies for academic staff exclusively for women.
The Executive Board has informed all employees and students about this.

All vacancies may only be filled by women for a year and a half. The technical university prefers to appoint women for a period of five years.
The measure will take effect on 1 July and must result in one in five professors already being women next year.

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2019-06-17---tu-eindhoven-only-opens-up-scientific-vacancies-for-women-.Hy-ALir1r.html
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
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Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #835 on: June 18, 2019, 07:36:10 am »
 :-DD

That's why I turned down H-1B at a Silicon Valley company a few years ago and intend to stay out of the West in general. I want to watch it burn :popcorn:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #836 on: June 18, 2019, 09:10:48 am »
True, I just have anecdotal data to support my statement. The groups I worked in that had women in them were more productive and "fun". Maybe that isn't everyone's experience though. I've been at this for forty years so I've been in a many different group settings.
Well I've enjoyed working in groups with women too, however I think it had more to do with the fact that they were generally pleasant people to be around than the fact they are women. Also they were all competent at their job.

Of course it's the individual that matters. I've had female colleagues who weren't the least bit fun to be around, competent or not. The absolute silliest thing you can do is try and ascribe that or other traits to gender.
Some people are just dicks (no sexual innuendo intended).
Some people are just incompetent.
Some people just have no interest in what they do.
etc...
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #837 on: June 18, 2019, 09:14:52 am »
Also, there is another situation to consider: on-job third wave feminists trashing someone's career due to false harassment allegations. Some ideologies are just not compatible with a work environment.
Thankfully I have yet to come across a third or fourth wave feminist in the workplace.

I was going to say that's you'd be hard pressed to find one working at any small-ish engineering company, as engineers generally aren't going to give a rats arse about such things.
But then I remembered the preponderance of "diversity culture" in the start-up scene, it's almost universal these days it seems. One look at the job ads for these companies is enough to tell you all you need to know. You'll find a 20 people company often has a "diversity officer" or some such role.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #838 on: June 18, 2019, 09:16:05 am »
Quote
For the time being, Eindhoven University of Technology is opening vacancies for academic staff exclusively for women.
The Executive Board has informed all employees and students about this.

All vacancies may only be filled by women for a year and a half. The technical university prefers to appoint women for a period of five years.
The measure will take effect on 1 July and must result in one in five professors already being women next year.

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2019-06-17---tu-eindhoven-only-opens-up-scientific-vacancies-for-women-.Hy-ALir1r.html

I hope someone sues them for sexual discrimination, seriously.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #839 on: June 18, 2019, 09:30:39 am »
Also, there is another situation to consider: on-job third wave feminists trashing someone's career due to false harassment allegations. Some ideologies are just not compatible with a work environment.
Thankfully I have yet to come across a third or fourth wave feminist in the workplace.

I was going to say that's you'd be hard pressed to find one working at any small-ish engineering company, as engineers generally aren't going to give a rats arse about such things.
But then I remembered the preponderance of "diversity culture" in the start-up scene, it's almost universal these days it seems. One look at the job ads for these companies is enough to tell you all you need to know. You'll find a 20 people company often has a "diversity officer" or some such role.
There are many kinds of startup. Ones that are doing real innovation are usually struggling so hard to get their core activity off the ground that they have no resources to put into anything else. If a small group can focus on things like a diversity officer, rather than just trying to be decent human beings during hiring,  they must have a lot of cash, and not much to do with it.
 

Online magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #840 on: June 18, 2019, 10:10:23 am »
I hope someone sues them for sexual discrimination, seriously.
And loses? :P
I mean, those things are getting increasingly blatant, but in America for example, a supposedly "equal before the law" country, "affirmative action" of various sorts when it comes to race has been going on for decades.
I have been asked to specify my race on a job application in California. Many universities reportedly take it into account in student admissions. I have seen statistics suggesting that even credit scores are slightly inflated for certain ethnicities.
It's only logical to extend it to gender now and it's only logical to make it more radical with every year of persisting inequality of outcome despite all that equality of opportunity stuff. It's not without precedent, there is plenty of arguments made for it and there is plenty of politicians and judges who support it.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #841 on: June 18, 2019, 10:21:55 am »

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2019-06-17---tu-eindhoven-only-opens-up-scientific-vacancies-for-women-.Hy-ALir1r.html

Quote
"We attach great importance to equal rights and opportunities for women and men," says Rector Frank Baaijens

Quote
For the time being, Eindhoven University of Technology is opening vacancies for academic staff exclusively for women. The Executive Board has informed all employees and students about this.

All vacancies may only be filled by women for a year and a half. The technical university prefers to appoint women for a period of five years. The measure will take effect on 1 July and must result in one in five professors already being women next year.

What the AF? I'm lost for words.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:25:32 am by Howardlong »
 

Online coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #842 on: June 18, 2019, 10:28:57 am »

https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2019-06-17---tu-eindhoven-only-opens-up-scientific-vacancies-for-women-.Hy-ALir1r.html

Quote
"We attach great importance to equal rights and opportunities for women and men," says Rector Frank Baaijens

Quote
For the time being, Eindhoven University of Technology is opening vacancies for academic staff exclusively for women. The Executive Board has informed all employees and students about this.

All vacancies may only be filled by women for a year and a half. The technical university prefers to appoint women for a period of five years. The measure will take effect on 1 July and must result in one in five professors already being women next year.

What the AF? I'm lost for words.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
— George Orwell, 1984

Its not hyperbole to use this quote. These kinds of cognitive dissonance laden statements are precisely what Orwell was talking about.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #843 on: June 18, 2019, 10:30:21 am »
There are many kinds of startup. Ones that are doing real innovation are usually struggling so hard to get their core activity off the ground that they have no resources to put into anything else. If a small group can focus on things like a diversity officer, rather than just trying to be decent human beings during hiring,  they must have a lot of cash, and not much to do with it.
I recently encountered one of the latter kind.  Because of their social focus, they had grants to burn, but the actual day-to-day business work was pretty disorganized.  I was quite utterly disappointed.

Funny thing is, because they truly believe they are doing good, the fact that their startup will fail the moment the grants get given to the next new social buzzword startup instead, they will think they only failed because of some conspiracy or other.  Alt-right, probably.  Or maybe hate speech in technical forums.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #844 on: June 18, 2019, 10:35:28 am »
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
— George Orwell, 1984

Its not hyperbole to use this quote. These kinds of cognitive dissonance laden statements are precisely what Orwell was talking about.
I predict that the next step is a public outcry for replacing facts with compassion and consideration.  After all, when facts hurt, they are hate speech, which is not covered by free speech.
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #845 on: June 18, 2019, 10:45:21 am »
Also, there is another situation to consider: on-job third wave feminists trashing someone's career due to false harassment allegations. Some ideologies are just not compatible with a work environment.
Thankfully I have yet to come across a third or fourth wave feminist in the workplace.

I was going to say that's you'd be hard pressed to find one working at any small-ish engineering company, as engineers generally aren't going to give a rats arse about such things.
But then I remembered the preponderance of "diversity culture" in the start-up scene, it's almost universal these days it seems. One look at the job ads for these companies is enough to tell you all you need to know. You'll find a 20 people company often has a "diversity officer" or some such role.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there's the Diversity & Inclusion police everywhere, but it's mostly considered a tax on doing business, a charity to employ those who chose to make grievance their career. Care in the community if you like. For the feet on the ground at all levels, it's largely ignored as background noise by way of a self-serving weekly emailed newsletter that no-one reads.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #846 on: June 18, 2019, 11:08:46 am »
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
— George Orwell, 1984

Its not hyperbole to use this quote. These kinds of cognitive dissonance laden statements are precisely what Orwell was talking about.
I predict that the next step is a public outcry for replacing facts with compassion and consideration.  After all, when facts hurt, they are hate speech, which is not covered by free speech.

Oberlin College, a largely liberal arts college, and one of their Deans, were last week slapped with $11m compensatory damages PLUS $33m punitive damages (probably to be capped at $22m) by a jury. This was a defamation case against a small local bakery that dared to call the police on a shoplifter who was a student. The jury found that the College was instrumental in supporting the activities of students after the event who claimed the perp was racially profiled.

It's not just the immediate damages: this $280,000/degree(!!!) college will doubtless see a reduction in intake because nobody who wants a decent career wants to go to an institution that has a reputation for creating troublemakers.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 11:17:27 am by Howardlong »
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #847 on: June 18, 2019, 02:42:31 pm »
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
— George Orwell, 1984

Its not hyperbole to use this quote. These kinds of cognitive dissonance laden statements are precisely what Orwell was talking about.
I predict that the next step is a public outcry for replacing facts with compassion and consideration.  After all, when facts hurt, they are hate speech, which is not covered by free speech.

I'd say it has actually already happened in some cases.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #848 on: June 18, 2019, 02:54:43 pm »
It's not just the immediate damages: this $280,000/degree(!!!) college will doubtless see a reduction in intake because nobody who wants a decent career wants to go to an institution that has a reputation for creating troublemakers.
And that is what I hope to see as a proper reaction to such excess measures. If parents can vote with their wallets, so be it. "Go woke and go broke" as they say.

Evergreen State university in Seattle is seeing a diminishing numbers of applications, after the shameful behaviour of the Bret Weinstein fiasco. I suspect the same is happening with Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo and the Lindsey Shepherd fiasco.
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #849 on: June 18, 2019, 08:00:13 pm »
I predict that the next step is a public outcry for replacing facts with compassion and consideration.  After all, when facts hurt, they are hate speech, which is not covered by free speech.
WHAT are you talking about?  Oh, I see by your flag that you DON'T live in the US.  It has already happened here.

Jon
 


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