Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 81174 times)

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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1650 on: October 18, 2019, 12:48:26 pm »
First, its wrong to group those who have progressive views into a single group you call "SJW" which ignores the varied opinions and views and dehumanizes them.  Its just like calling all conservatives "Nazi's."
No, it isn't, because the opinions and demands they express are the same; it is that set of demands that is called "Social Justice", and their proponents "Social Justice Warriors".  This is the same as calling both nazis and communists murderous totalitarian supremacists.

It is a common argumentative trick to try to block such honest descriptions by continuously redefining the terms.

For example, "fascism" did not always refer to ultranationalism, but to its core idea: creating a Volksgemeinschaft, a nation where political rule and all industry and private enterprises are joined, and directed to work for the common good of that nation.  (I.e., totalitarian political control of all aspects of the society.)  This core idea applies to both nazis and communists.  However, to hide the fact that "antifascism", communism, originated from competition in popularity between communists and national socialists in Germany, after the fall of nazis, there has been a tremendous push for decades to limit "fascism" to describe only national fascists, and not communists.

(I know that skirts too close to politics, but my point is, this kind of redefining terms is a weapon used in Gender politics: deliberately obstructing any efforts of defining the terms they use.  I believe this twisting of terms to make them undefinable, as a political weapon, is important to bring up here, because it is one way these sorts of discussions are deliberately made harder, in order to dissuade anyone from even trying.  Sort of "make discussion impossible so we are the only ones talking about this, so we win by fiat" strategy.)

Most are not asking for any "special privilege", rather they're asking to be treated with due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.
People like me simply do not perceive those.  Instead, we treat everyone on an individual basis.  I do not perceive your group memberships.

More importantly, when discussing things online, the data bandwidth is very limited.  There is just no room for extraneous social courtesies that do not aid the information flow, just for caressing the souls of some of the participants.  Just see how darned long my posts are already!  Neopronouns are like forced advertisements everyone is required to acknowledge and refer to.

Demand may not be the right word for it, but when their feelings, wishes, or rights have been disregarded for so long, perhaps they have justification to demand it.
No, I vehemently disagree.  One does not get to demand/deserve riches just because they have been poor for so long.

Equality is a given: we do not accept denigrating anyone because of their physical or personal characteristics.
We even try and avoid having our preconceptions, which everyone has, hinder our interactions.
So, there is no "social hole".  You could be a tentacled alien, and fit in online just fine.
If you perceive being in a "social hole", the bug is more likely in your own perception or behaviour, than in the social reality.

But, this is not in question here; Gender politics are demandings extra rights, or consideration for their feelings and wishes, or just because they feel they need extra affirmation in their social roles to be happy.  I and others here are responding with "no, that is unreasonable and silly".
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1651 on: October 19, 2019, 03:01:53 am »
Do you have a solution?  What could the U.S. have done better in this regard?
Yes, buy ammunition. Oughta have listened to Joe McCarthy and Yuri Bezmenov.

You do not get to cry #NotAllSJWs when you behave yourself like all of them. You come here to defend all the same platitudes which are being used to push men into women's sports and bathrooms or women into men's industries. And they are false platitudes at that. People will always have their feelings hurt and wishes unfulfilled. The point of SJWs has never been about satisfying everybody or even as many people as possible, the invariable point of SJWs is to satisfy ever smaller minorities at the cost of the majority. That's what actually happens in practice, every time. And there is no conceivable universe in which this is a good idea.
No. The point is to pursue a never ending list of grievances, so the people who have made a career from grievance have a secure career. Movements do not disband when they reach their goals. They either morph to a new meaningful goal - e.g. people trying to save an animal from extinction have no problems finding new animals to support when they are successful with their first - or their goals move from the reasonable to the unreasonable. Movements usually take decades to achieve their goals, so lots of people have their entire lives invested in them by the time they succeed. Do you think they are going to just give up pushing for something to maintain their income and sense of self worth?

I think its no coincidence that we saw the craziness rapidly escalate around the time gay marriage was legalised. This was the last of the really solid "stop treating people badly, just because they are not like you" goals being achieved. Now the activists are left with rather nebulous goals that you have to be part of the cult to see as solid, and the cultists have to shout down opponents because there are no robust arguments they can use. They have been really good at getting the cultists to buy into ideas like "Racism and sexism are always present. Our job is to identify and complain about it.", because if widely accepted there will be good jobs for activists forever.

Progressive Liberals are not about righting grievances.  We are about improving the human condition, so that we all have equal opportunity to live a happy, fulfilling life.  Righting grievances are only a subset of the work we see ahead. 

BTW I know of no one except progressive politicians who are making any money off of these "movements"... who are these people that are supposedly making a living pushing for the goals and what are these goals?  Only people I know involved in these movements are volunteers and donors.  Perhaps its different in the UK.

So were you against gay marriages and continue to be against it?  Do you also oppose city government building having mandatory handicapped access... perhaps against handicapped parking spaces?  Perhaps they don't deserve this "special privilege"...




 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1652 on: October 19, 2019, 03:49:07 am »
First, its wrong to group those who have progressive views into a single group you call "SJW" which ignores the varied opinions and views and dehumanizes them.  Its just like calling all conservatives "Nazi's."
No, it isn't, because the opinions and demands they express are the same; it is that set of demands that is called "Social Justice", and their proponents "Social Justice Warriors". 
...
Ok, but it just makes authoring argument against the "SJW" bashing here difficult because I don't know what faction or ideas from the SJW's you're bashing.  Maybe the idea of this thread is not about discussions/arguments... perhaps this is just a venting thread against anyone who believe there are social injustices in this world and want to fix it.  If so, I will stay out and let people vent. 

Quote
Most are not asking for any "special privilege", rather they're asking to be treated with due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.
People like me simply do not perceive those.  Instead, we treat everyone on an individual basis.  I do not perceive your group memberships.

More importantly, when discussing things online, the data bandwidth is very limited.  There is just no room for extraneous social courtesies that do not aid the information flow, just for caressing the souls of some of the participants.  Just see how darned long my posts are already!  Neopronouns are like forced advertisements everyone is required to acknowledge and refer to.

I'm not talking about online courtesies.  I for one don't care for neopronouns, and I don't know how to use it.  Perhaps I should learn but I have yet to learn the issue with the current vocabulary.  Yes you can call me out for not being "understanding" in this case. 

Quote
Demand may not be the right word for it, but when their feelings, wishes, or rights have been disregarded for so long, perhaps they have justification to demand it.
No, I vehemently disagree.  One does not get to demand/deserve riches just because they have been poor for so long.

Equality is a given: we do not accept denigrating anyone because of their physical or personal characteristics.
We even try and avoid having our preconceptions, which everyone has, hinder our interactions.
So, there is no "social hole".  You could be a tentacled alien, and fit in online just fine.
If you perceive being in a "social hole", the bug is more likely in your own perception or behaviour, than in the social reality.

But, this is not in question here; Gender politics are demandings extra rights, or consideration for their feelings and wishes, or just because they feel they need extra affirmation in their social roles to be happy.  I and others here are responding with "no, that is unreasonable and silly".

Ahh but equality is not a given in the world outside of this online world. 
Its not about denigration.  Its about equal opportunity, its about providing healthcare to those without the means to pay, and not letting them die from a simple infection out on the street.  Its about education, and breaking down the barriers for those with talents to succeed.   Its about ending big money in politics.  Its about training police to ease up pressure on the trigger even when the gun is pointed at a black person. 

And, not everyone supporting gender equality are about giving women extra rights.   E.g. I'm against any sort of quotas.  But I am for educating people to understand any difficulties women face in male-dominant fields like Engineering, and fostering a culture which is not threatening to them. 

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1653 on: October 19, 2019, 07:12:14 am »
Most are not asking for any "special privilege", rather they're asking to be treated with due regard for their feelings, wishes, or rights.

No one has to give a rats arse about your feelings or your wishes, and no point getting upset if someone doesn't do that, it's their choice.
Your rights are enshrined in law. If you think you are lacking rights, then petition the government to change them.

Quote
I don't think its rude for anyone to ask for that.  Demand may not be the right word for it, but when their feelings, wishes, or rights have been disregarded for so long, perhaps they have justification to demand it.

Going around demanding stuff from people is a sure fire way to get yourself told to bugger off. You can't demand that people be nice to you, or say what you want them to say, or think what you want them to think, or act the way you want them to act.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1654 on: October 19, 2019, 07:29:21 am »
BTW I know of no one except progressive politicians who are making any money off of these "movements"... who are these people that are supposedly making a living pushing for the goals and what are these goals?  Only people I know involved in these movements are volunteers and donors.  Perhaps its different in the UK.

Wow, what planet are you living on?
It's now a huge enough market that almost every university in the western world offers these useless degree course in it:
Here is a list of gender studies degrees worldwide:
https://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/programs.html
All these people are being indoctrinated with SJW views they then take onto top positions as "diversity officers" etc at all the leading companies.
These graduates are unemployable in any other role than some diversity/gender/grievance position.
I honestly can't think of a more worthless degree, what a waste of time and money.
When this SJW employment gravy train finally ends, these people will regret it big time.
 
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Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1655 on: October 19, 2019, 08:36:03 am »
Quote
BTW I know of no one except progressive politicians who are making any money off of these "movements"... who are these people that are supposedly making a living pushing for the goals and what are these goals?  Only people I know involved in these movements are volunteers and donors.  Perhaps its different in the UK.
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/diversity-manager-jobs?position=1&pageNum=0
Anything to add? There's a whole position who's job it is to fix imaginary problems invented by grievance studies.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 08:38:52 am by daqq »
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1656 on: October 19, 2019, 09:59:19 am »
Progressive Liberals are not about righting grievances.  We are about improving the human condition, so that we all have equal opportunity to live a happy, fulfilling life.  Righting grievances are only a subset of the work we see ahead

Wait - I'm confused.  Are progressive liberals about righting grievances, or not?

-Pat
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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1657 on: October 19, 2019, 11:45:44 am »
And, not everyone supporting gender equality are about giving women extra rights.   E.g. I'm against any sort of quotas.  But I am for educating people to understand any difficulties women face in male-dominant fields like Engineering, and fostering a culture which is not threatening to them.
There is no engineering culture threatening women. Its the grievance people who threaten women, telling them how awful it is to be in engineering.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1658 on: October 19, 2019, 11:57:19 am »
And, not everyone supporting gender equality are about giving women extra rights.   E.g. I'm against any sort of quotas.  But I am for educating people to understand any difficulties women face in male-dominant fields like Engineering, and fostering a culture which is not threatening to them.
There is no engineering culture threatening women. Its the grievance people who threaten women, telling them how awful it is to be in engineering.

And how hopeless and/or oppressed they are that they need a special lowered admission requirement to university engineering degrees.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1659 on: October 19, 2019, 12:04:44 pm »
Progressive Liberals are not about righting grievances.  We are about improving the human condition, so that we all have equal opportunity to live a happy, fulfilling life.  Righting grievances are only a subset of the work we see ahead. 
You just contradicted yourself. So which is it?
BTW I know of no one except progressive politicians who are making any money off of these "movements"... who are these people that are supposedly making a living pushing for the goals and what are these goals?  Only people I know involved in these movements are volunteers and donors.  Perhaps its different in the UK.
The volunteers are the suckers, or useful idiots, in this game. The real players have built careers, entire university departments with "studies" in their names, "equity" departments and a culture of keeping your mouth shut and your head down in large companies, etc, out of this.
So were you against gay marriages and continue to be against it?  Do you also oppose city government building having mandatory handicapped access... perhaps against handicapped parking spaces?  Perhaps they don't deserve this "special privilege"...
I was never against gay marriage, and I described its legalisation as being the last solid improvement in the fair treatment of people. Stop being so dishonest. The handicapped issue is complex. Not everyone can access every point on Earth. There needs to be a balance. All new builds should be required to provide good access. Many of the conversions of older places to provide wheelchair access are horrendous expensive fudges, which are rarely used. Its often hard to look at these things and feel they represent good value compared to the same amount having been spent  in other ways to help the disabled. They look someone able was looking for ways to feel better about themselves. There is a big downside to providing too much disabled access and disabled parking spaces. It encourages a certain sector of the elderly to abandon walking, resulting in their fitness and health spiralling down faster. The first thing they teach you in care courses is to only help people when they really can't help themselves. In the 70s a UK car parking in a shopping centre had a couple of disabled spaces, and seldom had both of them occupied. Now a car park has lines of disabled spaces. Has the number of disabled people really grown that much?

« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 12:10:32 pm by coppice »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1660 on: October 19, 2019, 12:29:38 pm »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1661 on: October 19, 2019, 12:42:28 pm »
For those in the EU
http://www.geecco-project.eu/home/

And note that it has received H2020 funding... |O
 

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1662 on: October 19, 2019, 12:43:17 pm »
Added 5 points in favour of brexit on my political opinion spreadsheet.  :-DD
 

Offline splin

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1663 on: October 19, 2019, 01:17:05 pm »
Quote
GEECCO will develop the “GEECCO Experience: Dos and Don’ts while Degenderizing the STEM Field”

Isn't that what the Borg, or is it the Cybermen, do? "You will be degenderized", "You will be degenderized", "You will be degenderized"....

Sounds nasty.
 
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Offline splin

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1664 on: October 19, 2019, 03:26:34 pm »
Behold!  The all new Acme Degenderizer.....


 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1665 on: October 19, 2019, 03:51:55 pm »
Ok, but it just makes authoring argument against the "SJW" bashing here difficult because I don't know what faction or ideas from the SJW's you're bashing.
How about you read the posts, then?  The posts I've read have clearly pointed out things people oppose or find utterly ridiculous, and harmful in general.

If it is that those things are associated with Social Justice and Gender Politics here, say so.  It isn't "SJW" bashing, when people complain about specific actions and point out the flaws and sheer stupidity of certain opinions, associated with "SJWs". If they were just calling "SJWs" names and ridiculing them, it would be bashing.

perhaps this is just a venting thread against anyone who believe there are social injustices in this world and want to fix it.
Have you considered the possibility that this thread is about opinions and actions claimed to be against social injustices, but actually cause injustice, reduce personal freedoms, and always generate more harm than good?

That "social justice" is in fact a misnomer, used to hide the true underlying purpose, to create a society of groups and tribes where individuality is bad, and group membership defines the value a person has and the respect a person is "due"?

That perhaps Gender politics is not about equality (which almost all members here are obviously for, not against), but about enforcing a specific set of values and norms that not only has not been shown to create a better society, but turns societies inward, putting social interaction above all other considerations?  And that many see that as utterly destructive?

You disagree.  Fine.  Voice the reasons for that disagreement, so we may learn.  But do not just claim that I am wrong, or ignore my reasons, and repeat the cleverly stated non-arguments that others, more verbally talented manipulators have designed to evoke specific emotions instead of thoughts, because those have no logical value.

As an example, claiming that women are oppressed/unfairly treated against in STEM fields, because there are fewer female students than male students, has been proven false by several studies, already referred to in this thread.  If you disagree with those studies, you need to consider why.

Based on what you have written, I suspect you might be believing the words and statements of the movement instead of examining their goals, actions and results.  That is ideological belief, not rational thinking.

I'm not talking about online courtesies.
Well, I just pointed out that to ensure inclusivity, Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange networks now enforce neopronoun use, which excludes me from participating (not for political reasons, but because I just do not grok gendered pronouns).

"SJWs" claim that not using their chosen neopronoun when referring to them in the third person (by for example using 'they', or their name, instead of the neopronoun), they are being bullied and singled out, because some other people are referred to in the third person via traditional gendered pronouns.
This is idiotic, and my recurrent argument in this thread.

I also oppose group-based quotas that override test-based scores, because it makes group membership -- something that most people cannot change --, above everything else.  I find that tribalistic, even racist.  I believe everyone should be treated equally on an individual basis, without ones group membership being considered.  I believe that true egalitarian societies must ignore such group memberships, because they are personal attributes of the individual.
When a society starts elevating group memberships, it is equivalent to suppressing people based on their group membership, and that is tyranny.

Ahh but equality is not a given in the world outside of this online world.
No, but that's where we are.  Dragging in the outside world and its inequalities to technical discussions is like forced advertisements: it does not work the way you think it should.

In fact, you might find that having an egalitarian community that ignores the inequalities of the outside world, does more to change the outside world, than a community where those inequalities must be acknowledged at every turn.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1666 on: October 19, 2019, 05:47:26 pm »
Progressive Liberals are not about righting grievances.  We are about improving the human condition, so that we all have equal opportunity to live a happy, fulfilling life.
I do not want to be equally happy and fulfilled as a woman who assumes that 10x difference in testosterone levels (made up number but you get the point) is a social construct which can be overcome by sensitivity training.
Neoliberalism isn't just about making people happy. It comes with plenty of assumptions about what will make people happy and surprisingly little tolerance for different opinions.
There is reason why old school America promises you a "right to pursuit of happiness" rather than this newfangled "right to happiness". Much more pragmatic in the face of unsound pursuits like gender ideology.
In practice neoliberalism is also invariably bundled with universalism, everybody is supposed to be happy about the same things, until you really make a fuckload of noise and define yourself some new oppression category within the social justice framework.
For example, not a fuck is given about happiness of stay at home mothers when maternity leaves are cut in half for the sake of some newfangled paternity leaves to promote workspace gender balance. Maybe in 5 years SAHMs will get their own letter in the LGBQWERTY acronym and special state-recognized rights, maybe not.
I will not even mention all the men who are simply unhappy about drama ::)

Ok, but it just makes authoring argument against the "SJW" bashing here difficult because I don't know what faction or ideas from the SJW's you're bashing.  Maybe the idea of this thread is not about discussions/arguments... perhaps this is just a venting thread against anyone who believe there are social injustices in this world and want to fix it.  If so, I will stay out and let people vent.
It seems like you are posting very little opinions of your own and just trying to defend abstract feel-good slogans which people shit upon because they are employed to justify policies that even you disagree with.
It's not a bloody special snowflake hugbox safespace, you can post anything you want. Tooki at least made his opinions known before quitting.

Instead, we treat everyone on an individual basis.  I do not perceive your group memberships.
I sincerely hope you aren't talking about your interactions with women outside the Internet, that would be deserving of a special set of pronouns just for you ;D
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 05:51:53 pm by magic »
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1667 on: October 19, 2019, 06:26:52 pm »
Progressive Liberals are not about righting grievances.  We are about improving the human condition, so that we all have equal opportunity to live a happy, fulfilling life.  Righting grievances are only a subset of the work we see ahead

Wait - I'm confused.  Are progressive liberals about righting grievances, or not?

-Pat

As far as I can tell today’s grievance culture is largely self-serving.

Universities, driven in the past couple of decades by accountants, looked at more ways to increase turnover by encouraging more students, so started offering more and more elaborate twists on <*> studies. And then they realised they needed to figure out how, with no valuable industry skills except as entry level fast food operatives, and adding no further tangible value, they were going to find a “worthwhile” job.

Where there are no grievances, perceived or otherwise, they have to find a way make some more.

And any corrections, of course, mean work more for them.

Whether it be dogs engaging in “rape culture”, sexist glaciers or “violent and racist” Spongebob Squarepants, these are just some of the many spurious pinnacles of grievance studies making work for itself. All of the aforementioned appeared in peer reviewed journals, but one was a spoof aimed at exposing the bullshit, but it’s extremely difficult to know which one, considering the whole field has become a parody of itself.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 06:30:17 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1668 on: October 19, 2019, 07:19:15 pm »
Quote
All of the aforementioned appeared in peer reviewed journals, but one was a spoof aimed at exposing the bullshit, but it’s extremely difficult to know which one, considering the whole field has become a parody of itself.
It should be noted that they did appear in peer reviewed journals, but the peers in those cases were similar SJW, without connections to other (real) fields. So it was essentially a circlejerk of grievance studies eblefle*.

* - since we can invent words now and the word academic or scientist cannot be applied to this area of study, this is the name for people who dabble in grievance studies now.
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1669 on: October 19, 2019, 07:30:02 pm »
Instead, we treat everyone on an individual basis.  I do not perceive your group memberships.
I sincerely hope you aren't talking about your interactions with women outside the Internet, that would be deserving of a special set of pronouns just for you ;D
It is true that I have the social skills of a potato, yes.  :-*
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1670 on: October 19, 2019, 07:54:59 pm »
Neoliberalism isn't just about making people happy.

It's mostly about making everything and everyone a market. Making people think they'll be happier this way is merely a marketing trick.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1671 on: October 19, 2019, 08:26:26 pm »
It's mostly about making everything and everyone a market. Making people think they'll be happier this way is merely a marketing trick.

I think that aspect is even simpler than that, marketing people are trying to make a living like everyone else, it's in their best interest to convince people to pay them for the work they do. Marketing is one of the worst aspects of capitalism IMHO, I think we would be better off overall without most of the marketing we have today. It's all fine tuned to appeal to the maximum number of people which completely ignores a significant number of people who are outside this lowest common denominator core consumer. It's one of the reasons mobile phones, cars, laptops, movies, music, everything is all so bland and homogenized today. It's all following the same marketing research, data, algorithms, trends, etc and the result is more of the same boring crap engineered to extract maximum money from the ignorant masses. They are more profitable than the educated and selective people who research their needs and want something unique.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1672 on: October 19, 2019, 08:43:15 pm »
Quote
All of the aforementioned appeared in peer reviewed journals, but one was a spoof aimed at exposing the bullshit, but it’s extremely difficult to know which one, considering the whole field has become a parody of itself.
It should be noted that they did appear in peer reviewed journals, but the peers in those cases were similar SJW, without connections to other (real) fields. So it was essentially a circlejerk of grievance studies eblefle*.

* - since we can invent words now and the word academic or scientist cannot be applied to this area of study, this is the name for people who dabble in grievance studies now.

This brings us back to the StackExchange debacle, and before it the Linux kernel dev CoC changes: the so-called Circle of Diversity. It’s a self-serving and self-fulfilling process infiltrating organisations eating them up from the inside, causing enormous damage and distrust predominantly in the form of divisiveness and exclusion, leaving an emancipated host barely alive enough to support the needs of the narcissistic but non-contributing and net negative parasite.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1673 on: October 19, 2019, 08:48:51 pm »
That should be the libertarian argument for universal basic income, if there is any :-DD

Or, dunno, the libertarian argument for eugenics, pick your poison >:D
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #1674 on: October 19, 2019, 10:21:02 pm »
The thing that makes me :o is that the CoC proponents openly admit they are against meritocracy.
 


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