Author Topic: Genuine question- is Please and Thankyou a cultural thing on the EEVBlog forum ?  (Read 4708 times)

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Offline FraserTopic starter

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It has occurred to me, after considering the helpful responses to my question, that I may simply be unfamiliar with on-line technical forums and how they work these days. I am from a pre-Internet generation and so only joined limited numbers of forums, most being on Yahoo Groups and, of course, the EEVBlog forum  :-+ I am a social ‘animal’ and used to having conversations with people. Hence why I write as I would speak. This can make for long posts though  :palm:

It occurs to me that technical forums can be hybrids in terms of social interaction. Some areas of forums have more social interaction than others and it would appear that there is a demand for communications and data efficiency in some forum areas that preclude social ‘niceties’. In those areas it is all about the efficiency with which information can be exchanged and they are almost a ‘cold’ environment where “Please” and “Thankyou” are just a waste of ASCII characters that reduce the ‘Signal to Noise Ratio’ of the thread. That is a very foreign environment for me as a social animal used to having friendly conversations with interlocutors. If my career is anything to go by, I was a very effective communicator who got the desired results and made many good friends in my work.

So, this thread has been both interesting and informative. Yes I am saddened at the desire for ‘cold’ sharing of knowledge in the most efficient, highest S/N ratio manner, but now I understand that attitude, I can decide how much, or little, of myself I want to give to a forum  :-+ Science and technical matters can be a naturally terse environment so no wonder these forums reflect this.

A previous poster used the term ‘social lubrication’ and I guess that is what pleasantries are. They make the other party feel happy and that is good. I shall continue to be cordial in my communications on this forum as that is ‘just me’.  :)

Fraser



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Offline MK14

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almost a ‘cold’ environment where “Please” and “Thankyou” are just a waste of ASCII characters

Things can and do get complicated (internet). Imagine if EEVblog/Dave, makes a really good video, and it has 1,000,000 views/viewers, who all happen to really, really like it. The youtube comments section, would look a right mess, if it was filled with the text "Great Video, Many Thanks a million times !!!!!", via a million different users. It would mean that to find a real comment/question on there, would mean reading through a million "Thanks you's", and could take an impractically long period of time to read through all those comments.
I.e. In such circumstances, it is probably best to not just say "Thank you".

But in a completely custom (one off) forum thread, asking a potentially difficult question, and needing a custom, non-standard, complicated answer. With just one or a few replies. It makes much more sense for the OP to thank people who have responded, and maybe further explain what the problem really was.

Also, I think the $64,000,000 question, is ?
How long/difficult was it for the person/people who reply, to generate the answer. Sometimes it takes less than 10 seconds, but other times it can take more than 30 minutes.

Forums (internet), spans a huge range of countries, cultures, races, education background, rich/poor, old/young, impatient/patient, hobbyist/professional, etc etc. So I suppose it should not be too surprising, to find a big disparity between those who are polite (and potentially thank people), and those who are not.
 

Offline tszaboo

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It has occurred to me, after considering the helpful responses to my question, that I may simply be unfamiliar with on-line technical forums and how they work these days. I am from a pre-Internet generation and so only joined limited numbers of forums, most being on Yahoo Groups and, of course, the EEVBlog forum  :-+ I am a social ‘animal’ and used to having conversations with people. Hence why I write as I would speak. This can make for long posts though  :palm:

It occurs to me that technical forums can be hybrids in terms of social interaction. Some areas of forums have more social interaction than others and it would appear that there is a demand for communications and data efficiency in some forum areas that preclude social ‘niceties’. In those areas it is all about the efficiency with which information can be exchanged and they are almost a ‘cold’ environment where “Please” and “Thankyou” are just a waste of ASCII characters that reduce the ‘Signal to Noise Ratio’ of the thread. That is a very foreign environment for me as a social animal used to having friendly conversations with interlocutors. If my career is anything to go by, I was a very effective communicator who got the desired results and made many good friends in my work.

So, this thread has been both interesting and informative. Yes I am saddened at the desire for ‘cold’ sharing of knowledge in the most efficient, highest S/N ratio manner, but now I understand that attitude, I can decide how much, or little, of myself I want to give to a forum  :-+ Science and technical matters can be a naturally terse environment so no wonder these forums reflect this.

A previous poster used the term ‘social lubrication’ and I guess that is what pleasantries are. They make the other party feel happy and that is good. I shall continue to be cordial in my communications on this forum as that is ‘just me’.  :)

Fraser
Signing your post definitely signals to me that you are treating the forum differently than what it is.
On the other hand, this isn't reddit.

I think, if one has nothing else to say, just a thank you, then there is a perfectly usable button on it.
Unless they opened the thread, because they should signal others that the issue is solved. I think OPs should have the option to close threads if their question is answered, in questions related topics.
It infuriates me when I spend 10 minutes looking up something typing an answer, that will be never be read. It's a waste of time.
But if someone invested their time into answering a question, especially in PMs they should thank them.

And I stopped answering trivial or very easy questions. There are thousands of people on this forum, some of these questions eventually gets 10 perfectly good answers from hobbyists or youngsters. Leave them a little success.
 

Offline Zero999

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There's the thanks button, but I always prefer it if someone bothers to write personalised feedback to a post, rather than just clicking it.

The thanks button is better than nothing, but it's a little over used. There's also someone who seems to use it to troll, by making silly posts, then thanking the responses, even if they're calling him an idiot. Some people also like to collect thanked posts, so it also gives people an incentive to reply to his dumb posts, because they know they'll collect more. :palm:
 

Offline MK14

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There's the thanks button, but I always prefer it if someone bothers to write personalised feedback to a post, rather than just clicking it.

I don't think the "Thank you" button, in practice, is just used to mean "Thanks". It seems to be able to have other uses as well (opinions can vary).

Such as "I Agree" with your post/opinion, and 'thanks' for pointing it out.
E.g. You can't use that small signal 100mA transistor, to control that 10 Amp output.

The few or more 'thanks' such a post, MIGHT collect, especially from more experienced forum users. Helps to strengthen the correctness of that post, and hopefully make the beginner more likely to understand and agree with it. Rather than pollute the thread with lots of, +1's and/or  :-+  :-+, like posts, which perhaps make more clutter, rather than make the thread clearer and easier to understand.

Also, it is a quick way of accepting someones reply to one of your posts.

E.g. 1 + 1 = 7

"Another poster" .. You meant "1 + 1 = 2" ?

So thanking that post, means you agree you made a mistake, and thanks them for pointing it out, without disrupting the threads flow too much.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 12:15:16 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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In my case it is simply that I go out of my way to help people and often provide technical information that they cannot get anywhere else and then I do not even get an indication that they appreciated my gesture. I can become less friendly and keep all the ‘unobtainium’ information to myself but that appears mean spirited. If helping someone brings me sadness by their lack of any appreciation for my efforts, that may be the way to go.

I get an awful lot of requests for help with thermal imaging technology and normally help where legal to do so. I have lost count of how many times I have spent HOURS researching something, delivering the required information and getting ZERO response  :( That kind of ‘entitled’ attitude rubs me up the wrong way but then it is my fault for spending the time helping a stranger in the first place.... that is what my wife says anyway !  ;D (She is much smarter than me  :-DD )

Someone recently told me that we now live in a “Me Me Me” world of selfishness and some people display an unfortunate attitude that they are ‘entitled’ to help from others. To me that sadly appears similar to a Country ‘Gentleman’ demanding Tiffin at 3pm from his Butler :-DD Well I have news for people like that, I do not play that game and I am not your ‘Servant’ so find your own information through hard work, just as did !

This thread has honestly helped me change my attitude towards this forum in a positive way. I will spend more time enjoying my hobby and far less time researching questions from members with no ‘track record’ of being a contributor to this community. I recall the term “Seeders and Leechers” from Torrent days and I have no intention of becoming a banquet for leeches  :-DD

Anyway I have what I asked for and will continue to contribute to this most excellent of forums, but on my terms  :box:

I tend to sign my posts as Fraser as it is my name and my friendly ‘face’.
I no longer need to sit behind a nom de plume.

Fraser

In case anyone wonders what Tiffin is in terms of my usage....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 05:36:20 pm by Fraser »
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Offline MK14

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I will spend more time enjoying my hobby and far less time researching questions from members with no ‘track record’ of being a contributor to this community. I recall the term “Seeders and Leechers” from Torrent days and I have no intention of becoming a banquet for leeches  :-DD

Anyway I have what I asked for and will continue to contribute to this most excellent of forums, but on my terms  :box:

It is not necessarily that simple, because I have also asked the same question (this threads topic), of myself, and come up with what appears to be a significantly different answer. Because in some cases, spending time answering some of the questions on this forum, even if it needs time to research and put together, can actually help (improve) oneself.

E.g. Let's say the question was about LDRs (light dependent resistors), and it was so long since I last used them (partly because if you know what you are doing phototransistors/diodes can be better, and not involve getting more toxic materials in wider circulation, i.e. Cadmium). Spending time answering a beginners question involving LDRs, can mean me refreshing my knowledge of them, any formulas involved/needed, and other stuff about them, that is becoming 'rusty' over time.

I.e. Even if they never respond to the thread, no thanks etc. At least I've had the motivation to refresh my knowledge of them, think about them again, and potentially enjoy spending a bit of time, reading up on them again.

A good answer, might even be useful (because of Google etc), to someone in the future.

E.g. It is extremely useful to me, that (hypothetical made up scenario), I can have my or a computer fail on me. Type into google, hard disk WD 123456789 Model BC, Winglows10 error "987654.21". A forum thread from 12 years ago, had someone have exactly the same problem, who says "You just need to change the CR2032" battery, as it fails the bios forgets the HD settings on older computers (hypothetically speaking). Then 2 minutes later, my computer is fixed, problem solved!
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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MK14,

I totally agree with your comments but I have been on this forum a long time and have noticed a change over the years. I still research topics for friends and also for my own curiosity. I study books and scientific papers to improve my knowledge of various topics. For example I have bought many books on thermography and thermal camera design and even bought an Amiga computer and its service documents to teach myself fault finding on a MC68K computer platform ! That was a bit excessive I admit but it helped me in reverse engineering and repairing MC68340 based FLIR PM series thermal cameras. I use the knowledge I gain to help others just as some good friends have helped me in the past. There is the question of who’s life you are living though. I am in my 50’s now and my wife reminds me that this is not a rehearsal so when I spend hours and even days helping other people, am I doing it for them or myself ? I have so much work on the to-do list at home and yet I ‘spend’ my time solving other people’s problems or providing them with information that takes hours to track down in my less than perfectly indexed 4TB archive ! Why is that archive not correctly indexed ? Because I did not spend the time doing so as I was distracted by other demands upon my time. I now realise that when someone asks a question either on the forum, or via PM, I should decide whether answering such fits in with my days priorities. It sounds so simple but I have always been someone who was happy (even eager!) to help others. A character flaw if not managed carefully as my poor long suffering wife knows.

I have just been vaccinated against COVID-19 and have spent the last year in effective social isolation so the forum has been an interesting distraction but I think it time I decided what is most important to my family going forwards. None of us know how long we have and I really do not think anyone will miss a few posts on this forum, or any other for that matter, from me. I am not that important in the big scheme of things. I will engage in topics that interest me or are simple answers but the equipment teardowns and long posts will likely end as they take too much time out of my day.

I currently have a request via PM to provide a scan of an Adret 740A service manual. That manual is buried under many boxes in my garage but I have said I will find it and photograph the pages. I will do so as I have already said I will. Going forwards, that hour or two plus physical exertion may not be made available for such requests though.

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 01:22:30 pm by Fraser »
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Offline MK14

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I have so much work on the to-do list at home and yet I ‘spend’ my time solving other people’s problems or providing them with information that takes hours to track down in my less than perfectly indexed 4TB archive ! Why is that archive not correctly indexed ? Because I did not spend the time doing so as I was distracted by other demands upon my time. I now realise that when someone asks a question either on the forum, or via PM, I should decide whether answering such fits in with my days priorities. It sounds so simple but I have always been someone who was happy (even eager!) to help others. A character flaw if not managed carefully as my poor long suffering wife knows.

I agree with you!
I suspect, there is some kind of psychological process going on, at least in my case. Whereby, answering some (unknown to me, usually) persons question(s), on this/a forum. Somehow is achieving something (on the one hand it IS achieving something, but not necessarily for oneself/family/friends and our own ToDo lists, just as you described/said above).
INSTEAD of actually doing what you should have been doing.

To put it in other terms (that some other people used, in describing stuff, a bit like this, to me).

The forum concept, question(s), posts, psychology, etc etc.

Is somehow "PUSHING MY BUTTONS", to get me into frantic activity.

E.g. This classic meme/picture:

« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 01:30:55 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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MK14,

I think you hit the nail on the head  :-+ That Meme is sooooo typical of me except it is normally “something is wrong or faulty on the forum” in my case ! When you examine that behaviour in the cold light of day, it is illogical. Why can an answer not wait until the next day ?

Anyway, this has been a far more insightful thread than I ever imagined it would be and I thank all those who provided input as it has genuinely helped me. I will cease the Soul Searching posts here as we will likely have nauseated readers  ‘throwing up’ soon :-DD

 :-+

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 01:53:51 pm by Fraser »
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Offline MK14

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This reminds me (the thread), of an eye opening youtube video. Where an amazing guy, who builds and plays amazing musical marble machines, which he designs and builds himself. Where he carefully explains how to get himself motivated/focused and NOT distracted by forums and things. So he can concentrate on very long term project builds.

My apologies, it is a rather long video, > 20 minutes. A quick summary is:
The theory goes that the brain produces dopamine, giving one's brain apparent reward(s), just for checking in on the forums (in his case whatsapp and a Chess webserver), rather than concentrating and doing what we all SHOULD be doing.



Example of one of his amazing musical marble machines:
(off-topic, but it shows what amazing things can be achieved, if he/we don't let the internet distract us too much   :)  )


« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 02:52:51 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline Terry Bites

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A simple acknowledgement of the efforts of others is a must even if it wasn't the best or correct advice.
Failing to define a problem coherently and in context seems to me to be very rude to the reader. There's no excuse for it and there is far too much of it!

Comment is just comment and doesn't necessarily need a response. Q&A should be treated as person to person or person to group dialogue.
The lack of properly framed questions and the lack of acknowledgement to responses reveals is a disturbing level of entitlement among some users of this forum.




 
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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A previous poster used the term ‘social lubrication’ and I guess that is what pleasantries are. They make the other party feel happy and that is good. I shall continue to be cordial in my communications on this forum as that is ‘just me’.  :)
I did.  The point being, lubrication is necessary for efficient, robust operation.

I personally do need to have a wider reach than just one throwaway question by a single person online, because solving a single instance (or with unreasonable restrictions because of a one-off situation) just isn't worth it to me.

In the real world things are different, because of the large amount of nonverbal information conveyed – just seeing the tightness and stress relax in the other person when a particularly nasty problem is efficiently solved, has a bigger effort on myself than any "thank you", because it occurs on a lower level: it has more emotional impact.

I do not believe it is soul-searching to consider why one helps others, or how it best suits oneself.  There are many reasons and many different ways, and being self-aware rather than just do things because it is customary to do them, is kind of necessary to be considered a sapient being, in my opinion.

For that, I applaud your consideration and effort.  And also for bringing up this topic.

It occurs to me that technical forums can be hybrids in terms of social interaction. Some areas of forums have more social interaction than others and it would appear that there is a demand for communications and data efficiency in some forum areas that preclude social ‘niceties’.
Agreed.  I believe a big factor is the fact that some/many (I have no statistics, only anecdotal evidence on this) technically oriented people do not perceive social interactions like most do, and simply do not have the facilities to do social interaction efficiently in the customary way; they lack the instincts on how to use the "niceties" that make interaction easier.

I know, because I am one of those people.  I've had to learn social interaction, like others learn maths or a foreign language.  Being bad at it in some situations but not others is not intentional, it's just that it's an ongoing learning process that requires practice.  And feedback.
 
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Offline MK14

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The lack of properly framed questions and the lack of acknowledgement to responses reveals is a disturbing level of entitlement among some users of this forum.

What I sometimes (or even often), see on this forum. Is these various 'new", 1 or 2 post, thread-starters. Who (in some/many cases) never return to this forum again, ever. At least NOT as that forum user name.

But, I suspect (in some cases), it is the same person, returning again and again. Never wanting to create a user with anything other than a tiny total post count.

Where it can get especially annoying (at least to me), is where they repeatedly ask the same question, again, again and again. Possibly slightly changing it, but it is fairly obvious (but NOT 100% certain), they are really the same individual.

When (essentially) the same question, is continually asked (under different forum user IDs), there seems to be a pattern. Whereby they want a particular 'answer', which confirms their (usually) mistaken beliefs. When someone gives the (correct) but different answer to what they want to hear. they just disappear (as that user). Then a week later (highly approximate), they return with the same basic question.

I don't want to point the finger of blame at anyone, but here is a typical example (with some details made up for dramatic effect):

They want someone to supply a schematic, for a 75 Volt, 60 Amp, Bench power supply, which MUST BE LINEAR, linear ONLY!. As they begin to get replies, they let slip, they will only accept answers with a maximum of one output transistor, which must be a 2N3055 they have, and the heatsink must be small, because they don't like the look of big heatsinks.

Eventually, after many new users, and forum replies. They let slip they already have the transformer, and WON'T get a different one (as it costs money). Which turns out to be totally unsuitable for the task in hand, a dangerous microwave one at that. Etc etc.

I accept I am exaggerating, but not really by a huge amount. Some of the threads seem way too dangerous for beginners and/or way too technically complicated and/or their expectations are completely unrealistic.

EDIT: On reflection as regards my reply. Maybe I'm being a bit unfair. When you are a beginner, unrealistic expectations of what you can achieve, what is potentially highly dangerous and what practical limits there are, is going to be difficult for beginners to comprehend. So I am being a bit or more, unfair here.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 07:02:46 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Went out of my way to help this person.  Never heard if they even received the parts I took the time to pull and ship to them.   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/uei-393-broken-jacks/msg794955/#msg794955

Offline RJSV

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For Neganur,'s response: Reminded me, in reverse situation: I had rescued a feral cat family (5 kitten + mom), but needed help with supplies / food / kitty liter
being unemployed EE at the time 1996 recession ish.

  The humane society lady complained about me, mercylessly: I hadn't thought to thank her later.
Just thought I, being a HERO was enough: I simply did not have a 'THANK YOU' follow-up on my radar screen.

  Maybe, you could prioritize your agenda, first, keeping your antenna up, for cases that aren't so reciprocating
as they come, and develop a sense for putting really bad offenders into the TODO box.

   When I venture into road / crosswalk I don't completely expect drivers to stop; many won't and are perfectly unaware... Some will never get it, but I just avoid bitterness. SF bay area has some ignorant drivers, but many just never got 'a talk...' on those two basics, thanking and using please. There's a lot of aggressive METH users, too, to occasionally encounter, a la BREAKING BAD... That crew is not likely to change, soon.

   Myself, sometimes along with thanks, or skipped thanks, I will substitute an honest complement like:
   "You guys are the BEST! Donut shop, etc"
-RJHayward
 
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