Author Topic: Genuine question- is Please and Thankyou a cultural thing on the EEVBlog forum ?  (Read 4706 times)

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Offline FraserTopic starter

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I have a question that may not be truly technical but it does effect my input to this technical forum so I think it valid.

I have been a member of the this forum for many years and have offered help to other forum members, where able. I am most active in the Thermal Imaging sub forum these days. Over those years of providing help I have experienced one niggle that still bugs me.... Please and Thankyou .........

I am British and was brought up to say “Please” when I needed help and “Thankyou” when I received that help. I have lost count of the number of times that a forum member has asked a technical question, I have provided the answer, and there has been no “Thankyou” or, in some cases, the person just “Ghosted” me. Sadly this is most prevalent amongst newbies to the forum and Zero Posters contacting me via PM for help, software, manuals etc.

I am at the point now where I seriously consider not helping Zero Posters who PM me. No one likes to feel ‘used’ and I am not the human form of Google or the Wayback Machine !

My father said that in this modern world it may be that people treat those with knowledge just like Google..... that is to say..... ask a question, get the answer, and move on without further comment. If that is true, it is a very sad state of affairs and it makes the person providing the help feel less inclined to help others in the future. In my upbringing “Please” and “Thankyou” were very important words  that really mean something but I am British and things may be culturally different in other countries. I remember seeing an interview with a chap on TV where he was surprised that Brits say Please and Thankyou as in his culture such is not needed or expected. In Russia I would walk into a shop, and would be totally ignored until I said “ pozhaluysta” (Please) and it was expected that I say “ Spasibo” (Thank you) when I had been helped. You learnt those words quickly when you went shopping in Moscow.

So to the topic of this Post...... Am I being unfair and too judgemental of other forum members who do not say “Please” or, more importantly, “Thank you”. I know we should not expect payment for helping others but common courtesy seems a fair response when someone helps you. I often spend much time helping a person and it does hurt/annoy when they just Ghost you without even a Thank you for your efforts  :(

If it is indeed a cultural thing, then fair enough, at least I will know that fact and not feel so used and abused  :-+

To offset this possibly negative post, I can report that I have been thanked many times for the help that I have provided and, in some cases, companies have even sent me Amazon vouchers ! Not expected or requested, but such a nice surprise when it happens as you know the person valued your help enough to send a gift  :-+

Fraser



« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 06:08:28 pm by Fraser »
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Offline Neganur

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Saying thanks isn’t payment, it’s just basic politeness.
I too am experiencing it. Get badgered for some technical detail and once you answer it there is nothing but silence.

Getting a ‘hey it worked, cheers!’  Would certainly be nice.
 
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Offline jpanhalt

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Let me add that just saying "Thank you" is sufficient for me.  I do not particularly like the idea of keeping score with a "Like/Thank you" button, but agree that using such buttons can potentially reduce clutter.  Perhaps, keep the buttons, but don't keep the score?

The downside of keeping score is that one sees competition for "likes."  That seems to lead to silliness and worse.
 
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Offline iainwhite

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So to the topic of this Post...... Am I being unfair and too judgemental of other forum members who do not say “Please” or, more importantly, “Thank you”.

I do not think you are being unreasonable at all.
I think basic politeness is fundamental to any discussion.

I would add that it is nice to see a question posed on a forum where it is clear that the poster has done a little basic research before asking the question.
Many questions I see posted on the forum could be answered by pasting the question into a Google search. 
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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I'm afraid it's a sign of the times and rampant elsewhere. I hang out in ResearchGate to provide advice in my area of expertise. A similar question came up: https://www.researchgate.net/post/People_asking_questions_here_on_researchgate_often_do_not_feed_back_to_answers_at_all2

My reply:

Quote
I don't answer questions to get patted on the back. I do it to help and don't expect anything in return.
If you answer with an expectation of gratitude, your are likely to be disappointed. If you don't have the expectation, your life will carry on...
Now, a few years ago, I had a very different attitude. It seemed to change with my hair color.

To which someone replied (and I'd agree with):

Quote
I agree with you in the two points:
a) getting patted back as a baby child is not my expectation; in the meantime my hair are as white as yours.
b) there is no expectation of gratitude on may side.
But I demand some some kind of feed back at all (even a general feed back adressing all answers showing up) in order to see whether my or any other answers, which often bear lot of informations, will guide the questioner on the right track on solving his isssue. This feed back can be either 'positive' (yes) or 'negative' (no) or neutral. In the case of 'positiv', there is no necessity of a further action. In case of 'negative', additional alternatives can be developed in oder to help further on.
There is no demand on a 'thank you' from my side. There is a demand on any kind of feed back.
Often the questioner 'only' responses by a recommendation. That means for me; the answer is seen, is ok and is acknowledged. That feed back is ok.
Often the questioner 'only' pops up as new follower. That means for me: he has seen the question, but he is too shy to answer. That feed back is ok. But unfortunately I do not know how whether there is a need of further help. Further actions, if desired, are up to the questioner.
But we all here are (should be) well educated persons of sufficient age and 'no reaction' at all is not an appropriate style of communication...

If I'm the questioner, I make sure I give thanks/feedback.

 
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Offline newbrain

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When I get PMs asking for help, outside some particular circumstances*, I always ask the sender to move the conversation to the forum, where others can benefit or improve the answer.

And yes, I've noticed the sometimes missing goodwill to ask questions in a polite way and thank afterwards (button or words), especially from newcomers.
My hypothesis is not that newcomers are less polite in general, but that less polite persons register just to get an answer, not to became a member of a community.

That said I'm seeing some kids on my lawn, and I'm also a bit behind my cloud yelling quota for today.

* E.g. I was asked a couple of times to keep the information private, not a real NDA but close, on a personal trust base.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline tunk

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I'm not sure if please and thank you is necessary.
I would think the general tone, basic research and providing
relevant info in the original question is more important.
And in many cases, feedback is important; if other people
experience the same problem, they can get an idea if some
advice was good.

(And don't forget that for non-native English speakers (like me),
it's not always easy to find the best expressions and terminology.)
 

Offline MikeK

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It's nice to get a thank you.

I told my brother once...He was talking about how he'll let over people in traffic or on the highway and they won't thank him.  I said that he should stop the other car and ask the person "If I let you over, will you thank me?"

It's definitely nice to get a thank you.  Absolutely.  And being raised that way will heavily influence how you react.  But, I think ultimately, you have to ask yourself what kind of society do you want to live in?  Do you want to live in one where people help each other?...Or one where we're all looking for something in return?

Being helpful does reap rewards, even if you don't get the thanks.  And...You can always thank yourself.  Nothing wrong with that.  You helped someone...Good job!  And if you feel that you're overextending yourself...Certainly up to you to pull back a bit.
 
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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MikeK,

Wise words  :-+

My issue was with the feeling of being taken for granted with no appreciation of my efforts.

As my wise wife tells me..... I have plenty of chores and jobs in my home life so why do I spend my time sorting out other peoples problems on this Forum. As you suggest, maybe my upbringing and attitude to helping others is the issue so it is likely best if I just stick to helping friends and spending my finite spare time sorting out more in my home life.

I am against the “Knowledge is Power” attitude of some but I see no reason to provide that knowledge if the recipient considers me no different to Google. I am sentient and do have feelings.

Fraser
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Offline Nominal Animal

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I agree that "please" and "thank you" are very useful; warmly recommended social lubricant or somesuch: with them, things just seem to work better.

I personally much prefer a followup report rather than a "thank you", though.  A summary of what the OP did, whether the problem was solved, or ended up being sidestepped, and so on.  Especially if the thread is then crawlable/possible to find via a web search, as then the overview is there to let others know how it went afterwards; kinda like listening to other people discuss how they solved a problem similar to one you happen to have right now.  Useful, much better than a "book answer".

The way I write my answers is to target more than just the exact problem at hand, for a number of reasons.
One reason is that nobody ever describes their problem perfectly, so assuming the target is only approximately located makes for an easier discussion.
The other, the bigger one, is that it is usually not worthwhile to answer an obscure question by someone you don't know, unless others can benefit from the question and answer as well.

Whenever I've helped people over email, I've always asked for the same thing: that someday, they pass the help on, and help someone else in turn.  (You know, pay it forward style.)

I do these, so that the original asker is just a participant in producing a solution to that particular class of problems that will be available later on, for everybody; and not in control of whether I feel my help was successful or not.

It's like helping build a community hall or something, emotion-wise.  The act of building something becomes the cause for the dopamine hit.

The downside is that you may get a similar affliction as I have, and see how much lasting damage people who know better but let their misunderstandings remain because they find it distasteful to admit being wrong ("hey, it's just one queastion, relax, who cares, it's not that bad").

(That is as annoying as trying to help someone who is being actively misled by a troller who tells the original asker to not listen to anybody else, and is leading them towards failure, often a delayed failure which will be a serious setback to the asker.  Frustrating, like seeing too much sand being mixed in concrete, and a "contractor" assuring everyone it's okay because they have twenty years of experience, and you yourself are just a hobbyist but have happened to see how exactly that kind of mix leads to crumbling concrete, a real hazard, and a building that will be condemned.  The waste of resources, the garbage being spewed out...)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 06:36:02 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline unixb0y

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My 2 cents: I was raised in Germany and also learned to always say thanks when someone helped you. I don't think we always say "please" when asking a question, like "do you know how to do X?" or "do you have a recommedation or opinion on product Y?" I wouldn't actually know how to put a "please" in there.

I also agree that on most forums "thank you" replies (if they add nothing new) are discouraged to prevent clutter, so that's why there are the thanks buttons. I personally always want to thank and most of the times still do, but do make sure to add some additional feedback or info that makes my post more meaningful also to others reading the thread in the future, like stuff that didn't work or so.
In PMs, not thanking would be very rude and "ghosting" (just taking the advice / help and neither replying nor clicking the thanks button) is also super rude imho.
 
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Offline Bud

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There is another extreme though, in real life, when people thank you 3 or 5 or more times on a same occasion. I absolutely hate this and try to get away from them as soon as possible to escape the endless "thank you again" diarrhea. This is even more annoying than not receiving one at all.

In regards to forums, i think posting explicit thanks messages is totally fine in individual conversations over PM. In regular topics that would clutter the information flow. Topics are not one-to-one communications. I think "thank you" button is the right solution for it.
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Offline floobydust

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I find Brits more well mannered and educated in etiquette, whereas in North America we are just kurt and Canadians usually blunt. We could care less or even notice an Essex verses Sussex accent, or the Queen's english.

One forum forbids single "thank you" posts, I think to keep things strictly business. The button here seems to cover it fine.

Something important to mention though, I notice women in business express thanks and gratitude amongst themselves all the time.
Men I've worked with don't bother. It's a 'grunt' and on with the next issue. We don't need or say thanks as much in comparison.

I've learned if I give thanks or express gratitude, it makes a huge difference in relationships, at a business level and personal level. Just try it some day, it's neat experiment.
 
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Offline ogden

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So many people takes community help on internet forums for a granted. Just live with that. You can't fix whole world of internet anyway. If you can't stand ungrateful - do not help them :)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 07:31:52 pm by ogden »
 
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Online tautech

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To some degree the basic lack of manners is a reflection of todays societies and modern parenting.

Now as a grandad I see it more and more around us where we insisted on our 3 using the 3 magic words of please and thank you and provided everyday examples to them by insisting their friends added the magic words into requests for anything.
Can I have a biscuit ? ….. not without a magic word !  Hand biscuit over ...... excuse me but what do you say ?

Kiddies from a young age twigged pretty quickly what was etiquette when they came to visit as do grandchildren that should never be underestimated for how sharp they can be.
At 3 our granddaughter in Perth twigged she could wind up her Perth based grandad just calling him grandad when it had zero effect on me whereas he had to be called poppa !  ::)

Like others I get PM's from zero posters that always get pointed back to the forum so to add to the knowledgebase so we all can benefit.

When we are grateful for anything there is no shame in showing it.
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Offline amyk

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Personally I don't really care, because I've worked with a variety of different cultures and in some of them the closest (non-English) equivalent to "please" has a negative connotation of begging. There are probably quite a few threads where my answer is the last post. I don't bother keeping track of them.
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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To clarify one part of my question....

I am often contacted by people via PM asking for specialist help or information regarding X-Ray equipment, Thermal Imaging or other topics that I have been involved with on this forum. I am fortunate to have a large archive of information, manuals and software for many pieces of specialist equipment that I have played with over the years. Much of that information was obtained through either a lot of effort searching the Internet or from Manufacturers I contacted. Some information and software cannot be shared by me due to NDA's and just my promise to the provider to not share it.

Historically, when I have been approached via PM with a person asking me to share my knowledge, information and/or software, I have helped that person. Some of the information and software has had a very real cost to me so I could decline to share it, but I have not. When I share that sort of hard to source information, I do so out of an act of friendship and community spirit. To be Ghosted by the person as soon as they got what they were after feels anti-social to me  :(

I think I come from another era (born in the late 1960's) where people were genuinely pleased to receive help and said so with a Thank you. That was just good manners but these were often face to face encounters. I feel that in some cases, the use of computer communications that separates people has lead to the current situation where people ask for information or help, receive it and then walk away. If you convert that to a face to face situation it would not play out well ! You ask someone for a light for your cigarette and then turn you back on them without even a nod of appreciation...... not considered polite in my world.

An interesting comment above that I considered a possibility is the 'submissive' or 'begging' association with the English word "Please". In the UK, this is just courtesy and good manners but I can see that in some cultures people may consider it a submissive stance that their personal pride makes undesirable. I do not think the same applies to "Thank You" unless the person feels that they have a right to the helpers time for some reason, like they are being paid to help. Personally I say "Thank you" when someone does something for me, paid or not. It was just the way I was brought up in Britain and our traditions come through in our language. I write as I speak and I hope that I am polite in both mediums.

There is good advice that if something annoys or somehow irritates you, remove it from your life if practical to do so. Life is too short for such things. I do not need to help others with their problems in order to feed my Ego, be happy or feel fulfilled so can effectively close the door on requests for help where appropriate. My friends are assured of my continued support  ;)

Thank you to those who have commented in this thread. I have learnt more about the topic and, if I am honest, I am saddened by what I have discovered. I belong in a different era where helping people is concerned.

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 12:20:32 am by Fraser »
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Offline tszaboo

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But then, when we started using this, one of the first thing they showed us was the Netiqette. Nowadays babies watch YouTube before they learn how to speak at all. Just look at the Youtube comments of any video. 50% of them will be "Lulz: Something that was just said in the video", the other 50% memes. This is quite civilized compared to that.
And there are a lot of cultures here. And that shouldn't be an excuse. If I can learn to hold my business card with two hands when exchanging, bowing my head. Then they can learn good manners.

About saying "please" explicitly: it can be avoided by using "could you" or "would you". But I can tell you that is some advanced English that is hard to master for some people. Just go into a Dutch bar, and the waiter will ask you politely for your order: "What do you want?" :-DD
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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About saying "please" explicitly: it can be avoided by using "could you" or "would you".

Either it's my age (born mid-60s) or country I grew up in (UK), but "Would you get me some water?" sounds demanding. The additional "please" makes a lot of difference to my ears.
 

Offline helius

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There are always the alternative
"I'm sorry to bother you..."
"I wonder if you are able to..."
"Could I perhaps trouble you to..."

The key is that you are not entitled to another person's time or their help.
 

Offline james_s

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I rarely use the word "please", and rarely notice or care if someone else does. It's a formality I may use among family and close friends but not typically in day to date conversation and even more rarely in forum posts. When someone says it multiple times it just gets annoying, like a little kid who thinks if they say please enough times they'll get what they want. IMO it's mostly just overhead that does not contribute to the exchange of information. I've never claimed to be particularly socially adept though. As for thanks, the thanks button works nicely.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Living in Texas now and having visited and experienced other places around the world, I can tell here the "please", "thank you", "sir/ma'am" are much more proeminent across generations. I also come from parents that were actively interested in instilling good manners and kindness to others regardless of any other qualifiers, so I can empathize with your post, Fraser.

The online experience from my point of view is the same as yours, to a point where I reduced the amount of effort I put in a reply by replacing conjectures (to cover all possibilities) with several questions instead, so I can both get additional information about the issue and sense the engagement on the other side of the connection (this was also the subject of an interaction between modemhead and I many years ago). More often than not, the replies are quickly lost in the ether.

So yes, the "please" and "thank you" seem to be in rare availability.

Regarding the construct to use "would", I tend to soften a request with "would you mind". I had to learn this and many other soft sentences "on the job", given that many communications were to request any sort of help or information in the English language (not my native one), so politeness took me to great lengths.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Just the upbringing is all. 

I turned off the PM about six months ago as I saw no reason for it. 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Interesting question.  It forced me to think about how I have responded and how I feel about responses on this forum.

I was raised as have many others to say please and thank you (along with many other social lubricants).  And use them to this day in many social situations.  But used them far less in the work environment before I retired.  Please was reserved for unusual requests, and thank you for above typical responses.  So it would be normal to just say send me the test results and simply acknowledge their receipt.  But I would preface a request that required a deep search of the files or setting up an unusual device or the like with a please, and if a response was forthcoming a thank you and/or other indications of gratitude would follow.

My responses on this forum have been "work like".   And my feelings about others responses to me have had the same general feel.  I have not felt slighted, but do feel gratified by the "thank you"s received.

I am still processing whether I am behaving appropriately or not.  I suspect between the vast range of cultural backgrounds on this forum combined with the equally large range of native tongues it is appropriate for all of us to be very generous in assessing the behavior of others.
 

Offline wilfred

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There is another extreme though, in real life, when people thank you 3 or 5 or more times on a same occasion. I absolutely hate this and try to get away from them as soon as possible to escape the endless "thank you again" diarrhea. This is even more annoying than not receiving one at all.

In regards to forums, i think posting explicit thanks messages is totally fine in individual conversations over PM. In regular topics that would clutter the information flow. Topics are not one-to-one communications. I think "thank you" button is the right solution for it.

Thanks Bud. I think you've pretty well nailed it as far as I feel about it also.

The thank-you button has a perhaps dominant use as "I agree with this". Unfortunately not always wisely. Which only diminishes its value for its intended purpose.
 


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