General > General Technical Chat
Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
Neutrion:
--- Quote from: asmi on April 13, 2023, 06:01:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 13, 2023, 05:37:27 pm ---If you don't belive in climate change, than your argumentation is valid, but science doesn't support your case
--- End quote ---
Science on the climate change is not conclusive, with a lot of fakes and preposterous extrapolations on both sides, which is why I don't have a position either way. But it doesn't really matter, because moving industry from one place to another doesn't change the grand total of pollution, so it has a zero net effect on a climate. As for what I do believe - I believe in science, but real science, not fake one.
--- End quote ---
Well than this shoul be another debate whether climate change is caused by humans or not so off topic here, but you can open a topic for it. In the last 20 years an enormous amount of research went into this, and there is only a very few percent chance that it is not caused by humans.
The few percent chance will be there forever, as we don't have many Earths to run the simulations over and over again, to have 100% results.
asmi:
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 13, 2023, 06:06:01 pm ---First, I did not hear many german engineers supporting the current shutdown, not even Greta supports it. Habeck, and the smart Ms Baerbock are not engineers.
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I don't hear nor see many people speaking against it. And I don't mean in MSM - they are the propaganda machine, so obviously they will push the "right" narrative, but anecdotally from people I know directly or indirectly, but trust enough to reflect their actual opinion. Those few who are against it, just packing up and leaving, but in my circle all of those people were immigrants and not native Germans. So honestly I don't know what else to think :-//
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 13, 2023, 06:06:01 pm ---If I understand your way of thinking, you mean until we get the fusion energy, we should keep the current NPP's running. Well, that will not go for indefinite time, and certainly not with most of the NPP being over 40 years old. As for building new ones see Siwastaja's comment!
Keeping the competence: The competences for those mostly old plants will not be needed for even the new ones, and you can't have those people living forever either.
Or do you have something like scools in Canada where you teach every citizen how to mine coal by hand?
--- End quote ---
A lot in nuclear fission competence will be applicable to fusion power plants when we will get there, also as I mentioned before fast breeders not only provide power, but also allow getting rid of old nuclear waste, so in my opinion their somewhat higher price is justified because of that aspect.
Another aspect to it is that it's not just operational competense, but also scientific one, which tends to follow NPPs, especially if those plants are actually designed in the country, and not just purchased elsewhere as a turnkey solution. Do you know where the most of somewhat recent super-heavy elements were first synthesized? Do you think it's an accident that the country has been quite active in the NPPs construction?
asmi:
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 13, 2023, 06:12:41 pm ---Well than this shoul be another debate whether climate change is caused by humans or not so off topic here, but you can open a topic for it. In the last 20 years an enormous amount of research went into this, and there is only a very few percent chance that it is not caused by humans.
The few percent chance will be there forever, as we don't have many Earths to run the simulations over and over again, to have 100% results.
--- End quote ---
My point is that climate argument is irrelevant when we're talking about moving industry from one place to another, because it doesn't change the total amount of pollution. Unless you also happen to believe that those climate changes can somehow be restricted to country borders.
mendip_discovery:
--- Quote from: asmi on April 13, 2023, 06:36:27 pm ---My point is that climate argument is irrelevant when we're talking about moving industry from one place to another, because it doesn't change the total amount of pollution. Unless you also happen to believe that those climate changes can somehow be restricted to country borders.
--- End quote ---
Whenever I think of stuff like this I always go back to that brilliant interview with Dave's cousin.
They are just moving the problem outside of the environment.
langwadt:
--- Quote from: asmi on April 13, 2023, 06:36:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 13, 2023, 06:12:41 pm ---Well than this shoul be another debate whether climate change is caused by humans or not so off topic here, but you can open a topic for it. In the last 20 years an enormous amount of research went into this, and there is only a very few percent chance that it is not caused by humans.
The few percent chance will be there forever, as we don't have many Earths to run the simulations over and over again, to have 100% results.
--- End quote ---
My point is that climate argument is irrelevant when we're talking about moving industry from one place to another, because it doesn't change the total amount of pollution. Unless you also happen to believe that those climate changes can somehow be restricted to country borders.
--- End quote ---
kinda sums it up, https://youtu.be/zJdqJu-6ZPo?t=156
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