General > General Technical Chat
Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
tom66:
--- Quote from: daqq on April 14, 2023, 08:35:23 am ---Capacity is not the same as power. Installing 100GW of renewables capacity is not the same as being able to shut down 100GW worth of other sources.
See attachments (yes, possibly cherrypicked data, but quite realistic scenarios):
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Yes of course, you cannot use renewables only. This is why you combine renewables with storage (hydrogen looks like a possible contender, but other options are available). You use the stored energy during periods with less wind/solar/etc. And combine that with long HVDC links that can move power across the European continent or from north Africa, or repurpose suitable gas transmission systems to move hydrogen.
Once you have an 'overbuilt' network you have huge incentives to use that energy instead of storing it because using it is cheaper than storing and using it later. So there come certain incentives to use energy when it's most available, you can imagine aluminium smelters for instance following wind or solar patterns with their shifts, or electric vehicles which spend most of their time parked up charging on excess energy at low cost.
daqq:
--- Quote ---Once you have an 'overbuilt' network you have huge incentives to use that energy instead of storing it because using it is cheaper than storing and using it later. So there come certain incentives to use energy when it's most available, you can imagine aluminium smelters for instance following wind or solar patterns with their shifts, or electric vehicles which spend most of their time parked up charging on excess energy at low cost.
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I'm sure the serious big industries will the thrilled to have random power generators and special "Green-But-Expensive Day Off" impromptu holidays.
tom66:
--- Quote from: daqq on April 14, 2023, 09:03:28 am ---
--- Quote ---Once you have an 'overbuilt' network you have huge incentives to use that energy instead of storing it because using it is cheaper than storing and using it later. So there come certain incentives to use energy when it's most available, you can imagine aluminium smelters for instance following wind or solar patterns with their shifts, or electric vehicles which spend most of their time parked up charging on excess energy at low cost.
--- End quote ---
I'm sure the serious big industries will the thrilled to have random power generators and special "Green-But-Expensive Day Off" impromptu holidays.
--- End quote ---
I don't care if they're thrilled or not ;D. You adapt to the changing circumstances and I am sure that in the free market economy we live in that the best companies that can manage with intermittently cheap power will do very well indeed. If they can buy electricity in at £1/MWh instead of £100/MWh then the fact that they can only run only 20% of the time may not matter. Let's not forget that aluminium smelters already have contracts with National Grid (UK grid operator) to switch off in times of grid constraint. This is not really any different.
daqq:
--- Quote from: tom66 on April 14, 2023, 09:08:04 am ---You adapt to the changing circumstances and I am sure that in the free market economy we live in that the best companies that can manage with intermittently cheap power will do very well indeed.
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Be careful what you wish for. The free market can indeed find a solution, the problem will be that the solution won't involve Europe at all.
tom66:
--- Quote from: daqq on April 14, 2023, 09:37:45 am ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on April 14, 2023, 09:08:04 am ---You adapt to the changing circumstances and I am sure that in the free market economy we live in that the best companies that can manage with intermittently cheap power will do very well indeed.
--- End quote ---
Be careful what you wish for. The free market can indeed find a solution, the problem will be that the solution won't involve Europe at all.
--- End quote ---
Well, aluminium can be made anywhere. But EU should apply a carbon tax on any aluminium that is not made with renewable energy. Such policies are already in discussion at committee level - imported carbon tax etc.
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