General > General Technical Chat
Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
nctnico:
I'm not hoping anything. Only outlining what the limits are in the big picture (beyond what is logical from an engineering perspective only).
Traceless:
--- Quote from: mikerj on April 15, 2023, 01:07:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: Traceless on April 15, 2023, 08:51:32 am ---FWIW I think it is a very good decision to get rid of all NPPs.
Why? Explain your reasoning.
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There are a couple of good reasons:
It is a misconception that nuclear power is unconditionally cheap. Nuclear power is cheap because we use it in an irresponsible way. That is we reap the benefits py producing energy but do not deal with the environmental debt in form of nuclear waste but just keep piling it up in "intermediate storages" until we have a better idea. The ultimate plan seems to be that some unlucky commune is gonna draw the short straw and becomes the final nuclear waste disposal site. To this day the "final disposal problem has not been solved". One of the most vocal advocates of nuclear power in Germany is Bavaria, howevery strangely when it comes to the question where to put the waste they absolutely refuse to store the waste.
So the reasoning here is simple: If I want to use nuclear power I need to be willing to deal with the waste. So unless I'm a) willing to store nucelar waste in "my basement" (figuratively speaking) and b) to pay in advance all future maintenance cost for that storage until the waste becomes innocuous (i.e. the next 24000 to 1000000 years), I can not use nuclear power responsibly. Conclusion if I'm not (willing/able) to use nuclear power responsibly I shouldn't use it at all.
Another good argument is: "Uranium doesn't grow on trees" or more precisely If we use nuclear power we rely on imports. Apparently a lot of uranium comes from Russia which, for obvious reasons is not a partner you want to rely on for your energy supply. Of course there are other sources but ultimately the Russia crisis has demonstrated that crucial infrastructure should not be indirectly controlled by external actors. Simply put a country is not independent as long as it is not able to ensure its energy supply.
Bonus: A distributed power grid based on renewables is much more resilient against military attacks and natural disasters.
--- Quote from: Traceless on April 15, 2023, 08:51:32 am ---Gas should be substituted by hydrogen and the coal plants should be shut down ASAP as well of course and only serve as backups.
Where do you believe this magical hydrogen going to come from?
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Germany is working on a giant off-shore wind-park. As others have mentioned there is still the transport problem because not every region in Germany is close to a coast. So using excess energy to produce hydrogen which then can be transported is a good solution.
So what about the cost? Yes energy in Germany is currently insanely expensive (for private households). However this is not a problem of renewable energy sources or the shutdown of nuclear power plants. But a political problem introduced
by the industrial lobby. Private households are forced to massively subsidize energy production for large companies. As you can see the average household paid 33,50 ct/kWh while the average business only pays 19,89ct/kWh and you can bet that
the largest consumers like Thyssen Krupp, BASF, Bayer, Rheinmetall etc. pay *a lot* less than that. So the price won't be a problem once we even out the energy price and have large companies pay their bills themselves.
--- Quote from: Bud on April 15, 2023, 02:46:10 pm ---So it is April 15 today. Is Germany dancing and partying ? :popcorn:
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Germans don't do such things, we build stuff ;)
Neutrion:
--- Quote from: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 11:35:57 am ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on April 15, 2023, 05:33:53 pm ---There are periods of times when fixed contracts are cheaper for a while, and people get scared and get rid of their spot price contracts, but then they regret it a few months later when the opposite, and usually larger spike happens.
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And this is exactly why spot price contracts are not suitable for a large number of people. With a fixed income it is much easier to deal with fixed costs than surprise costs. Keep in mind that a lot of people don't have financial reserves and/or capability to deal with strongly fluctuating living costs.
To give an example: A long time ago I had a variable interest rate mortgage. At some point (IIRC around 2009) that got bumped up from 4% to 6.5%. Fortunately that is announced well in advance so I could take measures, but a spot price changes at 'random' so you never know what you are going to pay in advance. You really need to be setup for that.
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What people wan't often is what they got used to. In the world of renewables, flat aviabilily needs a lot of extra resource, while demand management needs some intelligence.
I bet people who are scared about changing tariffs are partly confused because they don't seem know when the electricity is cheap and when not. Changing that, and many like rob66(I am playing with that as well just for fun , and I can tell you it is NOT a big issue at all) are going to do some adjustments if that can save money. And the rich will pay for the extra tech and the flat tariff.
But to make an interesting comparison:
What is the cost of your planned H2 storage, how long can it store, what is the max capacity of it, how long will it take to charge it up, and how much is the NPP, and what is its rated max power? (Also its planned duty cycle is interesting as that is crucial to to see ROI in time.)
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Traceless on April 16, 2023, 01:00:21 pm ---So the reasoning here is simple: If I want to use nuclear power I need to be willing to deal with the waste. So unless I'm a) willing to store nucelar waste in "my basement" (figuratively speaking) and b) to pay in advance all future maintenance cost for that storage until the waste becomes innocuous (i.e. the next 24000 to 1000000 years), I can not use nuclear power responsibly. Conclusion if I'm not (willing/able) to use nuclear power responsibly I shouldn't use it at all.
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There are a few misconceptions about nuclear waste. The fast decaying portions stop radiating quickly which happens in a 100 to 200 year time frame. After that the radiation levels are way more manageable and thus the waste is way easier/safer to store and handle. There is too much focus on 'radiation must be to zero before it is safe'. That is nonsense.
A much bigger concern is that nuclear waste is a concentration of toxic metals which remain toxic until the sun swallows the earth. However, there are other toxic/dangerous waste materials which we can't break down like asbestos and those simply get burried. So in the end the idea of storing nuclear waste underground is not such an alien idea at all.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 16, 2023, 01:23:22 pm ---What is the cost of your planned H2 storage, how long can it store, what is the max capacity of it, how long will it take to charge it up, and how much is the NPP, and what is its rated max power? (Also its planned duty cycle is interesting as that is crucial to to see ROI in time.)
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The 'home' hydride based storage system that was discussed on this forum a few years ago has an ROI of 30 years (based on low volume production pricing). IIRC it has power rating somewhere 4kW. But the capacity and durability outperformed Li-ion batteries by a large margin. You'd be going through several battery packs over the same time period. With the higher electricity prices that we have here at this moment and with solar panels added to the mix, the ROI would be much shorter.
Hydride storage is still in the ramp-up phase but it is a good contender for local / home storage solutions. Especially if you have solar panels or want to even out spot price volatility.
The solar panels I have on the roof are capped to 4200W (inverter limit) but I have no load that needs such an amount of power AND I can't rely on the solar panels delivering that amount of power every day. It doesn't mean that I'm going to buy a hydrite storage system right now but it is something I'm going to keep an eye on (just like battery storage).
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