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| Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th |
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| Neutrion:
--- Quote from: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 01:42:12 pm --- --- Quote from: Neutrion on April 16, 2023, 01:23:22 pm ---What is the cost of your planned H2 storage, how long can it store, what is the max capacity of it, how long will it take to charge it up, and how much is the NPP, and what is its rated max power? (Also its planned duty cycle is interesting as that is crucial to to see ROI in time.) --- End quote --- The 'home' hydride based storage system that was discussed on this forum a few years ago has an ROI of 30 years (based on low volume production pricing). IIRC it has power rating somewhere 4kW. But the capacity and durability outperformed Li-ion batteries by a large margin. You'd be going through several battery packs over the same time period. With the higher electricity prices that we have here at this moment and with solar panels added to the mix, the ROI would be much shorter. Hydride storage is still in the ramp-up phase but it is a good contender for local / home storage solutions. Especially if you have solar panels or want to even out spot price volatility. The solar panels I have on the roof are capped to 4200W (inverter limit) but I have no load that needs such an amount of power AND I can't rely on the solar panels delivering that amount of power every day. It doesn't mean that I'm going to buy a hydrite storage system right now but it is something I'm going to keep an eye on (just like battery storage). --- End quote --- Sorry, I was asking about the planned hydrogen-nuclear power plant combo you mentioned what the Netherland is going to build. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 16, 2023, 01:50:34 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 01:42:12 pm --- --- Quote from: Neutrion on April 16, 2023, 01:23:22 pm ---What is the cost of your planned H2 storage, how long can it store, what is the max capacity of it, how long will it take to charge it up, and how much is the NPP, and what is its rated max power? (Also its planned duty cycle is interesting as that is crucial to to see ROI in time.) --- End quote --- The 'home' hydride based storage system that was discussed on this forum a few years ago has an ROI of 30 years (based on low volume production pricing). IIRC it has power rating somewhere 4kW. But the capacity and durability outperformed Li-ion batteries by a large margin. You'd be going through several battery packs over the same time period. With the higher electricity prices that we have here at this moment and with solar panels added to the mix, the ROI would be much shorter. Hydride storage is still in the ramp-up phase but it is a good contender for local / home storage solutions. Especially if you have solar panels or want to even out spot price volatility. The solar panels I have on the roof are capped to 4200W (inverter limit) but I have no load that needs such an amount of power AND I can't rely on the solar panels delivering that amount of power every day. It doesn't mean that I'm going to buy a hydrite storage system right now but it is something I'm going to keep an eye on (just like battery storage). --- End quote --- Sorry, I was asking about the planned hydrogen-nuclear power plant combo you mentioned what the Netherland is going to build. --- End quote --- Aha. I didn't get that. According to the latest plans the new nuclear power plants should deliver a total power between 2GW and 3.3GW. Where it comes to hydrogen it is not really a combo. It looks like the aim is to have a total of 4GW worth of electrolysers to produce hydrogen by 2030 in the NL. The hydrogen storage (*) is being build regardless whether the nuclear power plants are actually going to be build. There is still debate about the location. Putting the new nuclear power plants near industry that needs both electricity and hydrogen or place the new power plants next to the existing nuclear power plant. Both have pros and cons. * Underground either in salt caverns or empty gas fields. Empty gas fields are plenty and salt caverns can be made. The efficiency of underground storage is in the 98% ballpark. |
| Neutrion:
--- Quote from: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 02:38:30 pm --- --- Quote from: Neutrion on April 16, 2023, 01:50:34 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on April 16, 2023, 01:42:12 pm --- --- Quote from: Neutrion on April 16, 2023, 01:23:22 pm ---What is the cost of your planned H2 storage, how long can it store, what is the max capacity of it, how long will it take to charge it up, and how much is the NPP, and what is its rated max power? (Also its planned duty cycle is interesting as that is crucial to to see ROI in time.) --- End quote --- The 'home' hydride based storage system that was discussed on this forum a few years ago has an ROI of 30 years (based on low volume production pricing). IIRC it has power rating somewhere 4kW. But the capacity and durability outperformed Li-ion batteries by a large margin. You'd be going through several battery packs over the same time period. With the higher electricity prices that we have here at this moment and with solar panels added to the mix, the ROI would be much shorter. Hydride storage is still in the ramp-up phase but it is a good contender for local / home storage solutions. Especially if you have solar panels or want to even out spot price volatility. The solar panels I have on the roof are capped to 4200W (inverter limit) but I have no load that needs such an amount of power AND I can't rely on the solar panels delivering that amount of power every day. It doesn't mean that I'm going to buy a hydrite storage system right now but it is something I'm going to keep an eye on (just like battery storage). --- End quote --- Sorry, I was asking about the planned hydrogen-nuclear power plant combo you mentioned what the Netherland is going to build. --- End quote --- Aha. I didn't get that. According to the latest plans the new nuclear power plants should deliver a total power between 2GW and 3.3GW. Where it comes to hydrogen it is not really a combo. The hydrogen storage is being build regardless whether the nuclear power plants are actually going to be build. There is still debate about the location. Putting the new nuclear power plants near industry that needs both electricity and hydrogen or place the new power plants next to the existing nuclear power plant. Both have pros and cons. --- End quote --- So there are no costs known yet? Not even the planned capacity for the H2 or any detail? How was the calculation done? Because my assumption would be, that if you would take the money for the NPP, and instead build additional H2 storage(above the already planned), and/or renewable from the same amount, you would get a better solution. Especially if you take into account, that because of the fluctuating renewables, the selling price of the storaged electricity could go quiet high. While during the daytime in most of the cases the price of nuclear energy would be very low especially in the next 10-20 years, where we expect way more renewables to come. (With the floating wind turbines a lot of new possibilities open up.) And if you using the NPP for the H2 filling, than again it would have to compete with with wind and solar. So I would really like to see how the calculations were done. |
| nctnico:
AFAIK hydrogen storage in salt caverns is being build to store 36000 metric tonnes of hydrogen (as a start). The empty gas fields can potentially hold many times that much. So there isn't a practical limit in terms of storage capacity that is and/or can be made available in the NL. The calculation has many factors. Nuclear, solar and wind are more or less on par where it comes to price per kWh to generate in the NL; around 4 euro cents per kWh. Transport costs through the grid are about the same or higher. This already shows that just looking at generation costs is going to skew any comparison if you don't take transport costs into account. Roundtrip efficiency for hydrogen is around 50% but is likely to improve significantly over time. But even at 50% efficieny, you are only looking at a price increase ballpark 33% at the consumer end because the transport costs are still the same (excluding taxes which make the relative cost for storage even smaller). Alternatively the hydrogen can also be used for an industrial process or vehicle that needs hydrogen anyway. On top of that, the NL intends to import and distribute hydrogen through the several sea ports it has which have direct pipeline connections deep into Europe. And again, the nuclear power plants aren't intended to just produce hydrogen. Hydrogen production is supposed to happen when there is excess energy or when the hydrogen supply runs low. The nuclear power plants will primarily be feeding the grid. |
| Siwastaja:
Did you or anyone consider storing thermal energy in said salt caverns and empty gas fields? I mean, simple "unidirectional" geothermal (which replenishes simply through the surface of the Earth by the Sun) is very popular here in colder countries and is not that expensive. It means drilling a 200-meter deep hole in the bedrock or whatever soil type here. But you can also replenish it by reversing the direction. This is known to have time constant in many months to even annual scale. Some people do it even here. The Earth itself acts both as the storage medium and insulation (think about it as an infinite R-C ladder, each layer adding less and less effective C). This could prove way more practical than hydrogen, but I don't know enough about the proposed hydrogen solution to really say anything about it for sure. It just sounds suspicious, while I know the geothermal storage option does actually work and has good track record, nothing novel in it. |
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