General > General Technical Chat
Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
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Simon:
Well what is the nuclear to be replaced with?
Neutrion:

--- Quote from: Simon on April 21, 2023, 03:41:17 pm ---my point is that Joe Bloggs does not have a clue what he is actually making a decision on, to the point that he thinks the decision is helping him when it could be harming him and his fellow countrymen. My point is that there is one result of this, the energy system will produce more greenhouse gas emissions, this hurts everyone and is not necessarily cheaper so it is a loose loose choice. Now there is a way to redress this. If less power is required then there is less need for carbon emitting generators to be used and the price also drops due to lower demand. So those who voted to turn off the power should go without power! Then they might take a serious interest in how this woks and start to understand the realities.

--- End quote ---

But the same applies for the politician. When Ms Baerbock doesn't even get the gimnasium level math,
what kind of more expert tech oppinion can she have than Joe Bloggs?
So everything you mentioned also applies for the politician.
And again the german population is not allowed to vote on any issue,(I would really like to hear the reasoning when some expert explains why the germans are collectively more stupid than any other European nation. :)  )  so they did not vote on anything,
expert politicians voted for them in this case obviously against the peoples will it seems.
(Only local referendums are allowed in Germany.)

So I agree with you that those POLITICIANS who woted for this, should bear the consequences(and that of all the other issues by moving to certain part of Berlin), and use no electricity anymore, but it won't solve the actual situation.


If you read the swiss press, you will see that until a referendum comes, most people probably read more
articles and studies, debates than the "consulted with experts" politicians in other countries.


--- Quote from: switchabl on April 21, 2023, 04:57:18 pm ---
--- Quote from: Simon on April 21, 2023, 03:41:17 pm ---My point is that there is one result of this, the energy system will produce more greenhouse gas emissions, this hurts everyone and is not necessarily cheaper so it is a loose loose choice.

--- End quote ---

Call me a cynic but I strongly suspect that politically the one result of keeping nuclear power would have been less PV and wind, not less coal and an energy system with broadly the same CO2 emissions (potentially at somewhat lower prices). In Germany, coal is not just about energy, it is about mining jobs (and voters).

(And to be fair the energy sector is actually on track to meet reduction goals, at least for now.)

--- End quote ---
Why should it be like that? It can be done better. And the coal -exit is already decided.
There are many more voters who don't want coal. There is money for hundredthousands of uneducated from Africa fleeing into the country who don't even speak the language, so I bet  there must be some money left for the few thousand german coal workers as well.
Simon:
I am confused. I was led to beleive that the people voted for this. There is a difference theoretically between the people and the politicians. Politicians are supposed to follow a due process and listen to the expects. Theoretically we know that they at least did this before deciding. When it comes to the people we all know what doing their own research means for many.... people won't be obliged to listen to proper experts so I am still very wary of letting "people" decide. Sadly the average person is not that clever.
Neutrion:

--- Quote from: Simon on April 21, 2023, 05:30:52 pm ---I am confused. I was led to beleive that the people voted for this. There is a difference theoretically between the people and the politicians. Politicians are supposed to follow a due process and listen to the expects. Theoretically we know that they at least did this before deciding. When it comes to the people we all know what doing their own research means for many.... people won't be obliged to listen to proper experts so I am still very wary of letting "people" decide. Sadly the average person is not that clever.

--- End quote ---
And what is the guarantee that a politician understands anythig the expert says? What is the guarantee, that a very broad spectrum of experts are consulted, instead of a lobby group? That there is a debate?

Dictatorships are basically based on your argumentation. No joke.

And the only example wehere this (let the people decide) system is working is Switzerland. I don't see them as hopeless. Rather the pseudo democracies. I see big changes in Europe which are qiet possibly against the will of the population.

And if you would mention the big democratic trauma, the  BRRRR...  you know what :) . The problem there was rather not having to have a second voting, when the circumstances were clear. If people still would wanted to have it, they could have voted accordingly.
Simon:

--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 21, 2023, 05:48:00 pm ---
And what is the guarantee that a politician understands anythig the expert says? What is the guarantee, that a very broad spectrum of experts are consulted, instead of a lobby group? That there is a debate?

Dictatorships are basically based on your argumentation. No joke.

And the only example wehere this (let the people decide) system is working is Switzerland. I don't see them as hopeless. Rather the pseudo democracies. I see big changes in Europe which are qiet possibly against the will of the population.

And if you would mention the big democratic trauma, the  BRRRR...  you know what :) . The problem there was rather not having to have a second voting, when the circumstances were clear. If people still would wanted to have it, they could have voted accordingly.


--- End quote ---

I am not saying that the politicians would get it right, but at least there would be some semblance of trying and this would be publicly scrutinized even if through later leaks. But I have no confidence at all in a democratic vote.

People seem to confuse democracy with what is right. Just because it is what the majority wanted does not make it right. the majority are never going to be knowledgeable on the issue so the result will be just pop luck, no better than the politicians.

Yes I am scared by a recent vote where even I voted the wrong way. I am not angry with those that told lies and I did not vote on those anyway. I am angry with those that just said: "this is a really bad idea - trust us". The result was I did not. I did try to seek out information but as a simple citizen with limited time and not knowing where to start it was impossible. Did any news channels bother to make programs that just explained the facts? NO! did anyone make say a YouTube series that gave information? NO! All we got was debates between people with opinions praying on peoples fears, at no point did someone say: "look guys it works like this, now make up your own mind if you think this is worth while. Now if we change you get this, now make up your minds if that is what you want". No the public discourse was reduced to political silos having a mud slinging match in an attempt to scare people to vote one way or the other.

I doubt very much that any issue or debate would be held properly, it's just .... people..... 90% are too stupid to know what is good for them. That is after all the reason why we have a political system, someone has to make the decision. OK you don't like those politicians, but, the majority voted for them so basically truth and reasonableness are fucked either way.
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