General > General Technical Chat
Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
m k:
Base must be backed up with something, always.
Coverage of peak demand must also be available, always.
Plants are down, cables are cut and so on.
Sure there is a limit but all down because of one is not very good practice.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: .RC. on April 22, 2023, 10:26:12 am ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on April 22, 2023, 07:14:05 am ---
The big difference is, solar and wind production is so much cheaper per produced kWh to build and maintain (total cost of ownership with all true expenses) that overdimensioning them does not become such a problem overdimensioning nuclear production would have been (no one tried).
--- End quote ---
Depends on what price you put on reliability. You must have storage and yet one struggles to find information on storage costs for grid sized networks for 100% reliability. How many hours or days storage you need.
At the end of the day, storage is very expensive.
--- End quote ---
Indeed. As I outlined before: generation costs are like 20% of the end consumer price of the electricity. Margin, transport and taxes make up for the other 80%.
--- Quote ---But all this emissions stuff. No need to worry. There are enough billions of people in third world countries, that will burn every last bit of coal, gas and oil. Because it is cheap to utilise as it is such low technology. You do not need a single piece of silicon semiconductor material to turn fossil fuels into electricity.
--- End quote ---
I tend to disagree here. A lot of the third world countries have excellent opportunities to generate hydrogen. Hydrogen is the new oil and unlike oil, you only need land area and solar panels to start harvesting energy & making money. This in turn leads to more money spend in the economies of those countries. And this hasn't gone unnoticed by the governments as well. All the countries in North Africa are trying to get a piece of the hydrogen production cake.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: .RC. on April 22, 2023, 12:13:50 pm ---Fossil fuels are being phased out though.
There is not going to be this fossil fuel backup in the future.
--- End quote ---
You can keep hoping that, and there might be political reasons to say things like that, but it's not really going to happen any time soon, and it doesn't need to happen. Just getting the volumes used significantly lower is good.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: nctnico on April 22, 2023, 03:24:45 pm ---A lot of the third world countries have excellent opportunities to generate hydrogen. Hydrogen is the new oil
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Or, using hydrogen as an intermediate product, synthetic fuels which can be transported using existing oil transport infrastructure.
Anywhere with excess solar and wind production and good enough grid, this can be done. Efficiency will colossally suck, but it doesn't matter if the power would be wasted otherwise.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on April 22, 2023, 04:12:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on April 22, 2023, 03:24:45 pm ---A lot of the third world countries have excellent opportunities to generate hydrogen. Hydrogen is the new oil
--- End quote ---
Or, using hydrogen as an intermediate product, synthetic fuels which can be transported using existing oil transport infrastructure.
Anywhere with excess solar and wind production and good enough grid, this can be done. Efficiency will colossally suck, but it doesn't matter if the power would be wasted otherwise.
--- End quote ---
Also keep in mind that solar panels that are installed near the equator in desert areas receive twice as much radiation from the sun compared to those installed in central Europe. So even when losing half the energy due to conversion losses, you still end up with the same cost per kWh because the generating side is twice as productive for the same investment.
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